Is the Real "god" of the Bible.....Satan?

[ttruscott]

...

Did YHWH order this?

Numbers 31:17-18

New International Version (NIV)


17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient to ignore that only sinners are born on earth and all sinners are under the sentence of death and the righteous judge can call the execution whenever HE wants.

The fulfillment of the death penalty is justice, not murder.

Peace, Ted

[ElCodeMonkey]

...

Did YHWH order this?

Numbers 31:17-18

New International Version (NIV)


17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient to ignore that only sinners are born on earth and all sinners are under the sentence of death and the righteous judge can call the execution whenever HE wants.

The fulfillment of the death penalty is justice, not murder.

Peace, Ted

No, it's not justice.

jus·tice noun \ˈjəs-təs\
: the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals
the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

You think genocide is justice? Killing of children justice? You think it's fair? Impartial? Heck, by your standards, we can all go around killing everyone right now because we're all sinners and under the death penalty. It's not fair at all that the rest of us get our lives to remain sinners whereas these children were cut down. To be fair, i.e. just, we should all die as children. Such evil children... Your argument is NOT received as valid by any stretch of the imagination. Loving and just people do not "punish" infants with the death penalty. The only appeal you could possibly make is that God can foresee the future and every last one of those people were going to become extremely evil and thus needed to die now. But that's just yet another workaround to make something fit that you take for granted as truth.

[postroad]

...

Did YHWH order this?

Numbers 31:17-18

New International Version (NIV)


17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient to ignore that only sinners are born on earth and all sinners are under the sentence of death and the righteous judge can call the execution whenever HE wants.

The fulfillment of the death penalty is justice, not murder.

Peace, Ted

I guess they must have been guilty in the body of Adam and in the bodies of their
ancestors who did not help the Israelites?

Numbers 31

New International Version (NIV)


Vengeance on the Midianites

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.�

This brings us into conflict with the Law.

3.Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

So now what? The Law only applies unless God orders otherwise?

Is God bound by the righteous requirements of the Law?

Who exactly tempts people to transgress the Law? Is Satan God?

[connermt]

...

Did YHWH order this?

Numbers 31:17-18

New International Version (NIV)


17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

How convenient to ignore that only sinners are born on earth and all sinners are under the sentence of death and the righteous judge can call the execution whenever HE wants.

The fulfillment of the death penalty is justice, not murder.

Peace, Ted

BTW, speaking of ignoring, I'm still waiting on a response to the thread you created. It's been about a week now.

[ttruscott]

...

I guess they must have been guilty in the body of Adam and in the bodies of their
ancestors who did not help the Israelites?

...

3.Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

...

I reject your premise of the cause of our guilt and put everyone's guilt upon themselves by their own truefree will choice as per your quote from Deut. Since this cannot have happened on earth (proven by babies suffering and dying) but must have happened sometime / somewhere, it must have happened pre-earth in sheol.

Our lives began a looooong time ago and we self created our eternal relationship with YHWH waaaay back the. Earth is just the place sinners are born to help the sinful elect come to redemption.

Peace, Ted

[postroad]

...

I guess they must have been guilty in the body of Adam and in the bodies of their
ancestors who did not help the Israelites?

...

3.Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

...

I reject your premise of the cause of our guilt and put everyone's guilt upon themselves by their own truefree will choice as per your quote from Deut. Since this cannot have happened on earth (proven by babies suffering and dying) but must have happened sometime / somewhere, it must have happened pre-earth in sheol.

Our lives began a looooong time ago and we self created our eternal relationship with YHWH waaaay back the. Earth is just the place sinners are born to help the sinful elect come to redemption.

Peace, Ted

OH MY!!!.... That is ..... something?


Pre-existence based on a tension in scripture.

Does that mean that God would never do something bad to someone who had been righteous in their pre-life? Or is the fact that they are born here on earth evidence that they are guilty.

John 9:1-3

New International Version (NIV)


Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?�

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,� said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.



2 Samuel 21:1-10

New International Version (NIV)


The Gibeonites Avenged

21 During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the Lord. The Lord said, “It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.�

2 The king summoned the Gibeonites and spoke to them. (Now the Gibeonites were not a part of Israel but were survivors of the Amorites; the Israelites had sworn to spare them, but Saul in his zeal for Israel and Judah had tried to annihilate them.) 3 David asked the Gibeonites, “What shall I do for you? How shall I make atonement so that you will bless the Lord’s inheritance?�

4 The Gibeonites answered him, “We have no right to demand silver or gold from Saul or his family, nor do we have the right to put anyone in Israel to death.�

“What do you want me to do for you?� David asked.

5 They answered the king, “As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel, 6 let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and their bodies exposed before the Lord at Gibeah of Saul—the Lord’s chosen one.�

So the king said, “I will give them to you.�

7 The king spared Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the oath before the Lord between David and Jonathan son of Saul. 8 But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah’s daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul’s daughter Merab,[a] whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite. 9 He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed them and exposed their bodies on a hill before the Lord. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning.

10 Rizpah daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it out for herself on a rock. From the beginning of the harvest till the rain poured down from the heavens on the bodies, she did not let the birds touch them by day or the wild animals by night.

Now we get into how many innocent children died in the drought because God found fault with Saul. Also the seven descendants of Saul who had nothing to do with it. Also the fact that the Bible does not record Saul killing any Gibeonites but only the Priests and citizens of Nob in which presumably the descendants of Gibeon who were made slaves for their treachery in making a peace treaty back in the day. And all of them in no way immediately linked from cause to punishment.

1 Samuel 22:17-19

New International Version (NIV)


17 Then the king ordered the guards at his side: “Turn and kill the priests of the Lord, because they too have sided with David. They knew he was fleeing, yet they did not tell me.�

But the king’s officials were unwilling to raise a hand to strike the priests of the Lord.

18 The king then ordered Doeg, “You turn and strike down the priests.� So Doeg the Edomite turned and struck them down. That day he killed eighty-five men who wore the linen ephod. 19 He also put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests, with its men and women, its children and infants, and its cattle, donkeys and sheep.

Hmmm... Just thinking... So this is also a proof for an afterlife as well?

Being that God is to good to allow bad things to happen to apparently innocent babies they must have done something in their pre-life before being born on earth?

Because he would never act in a way or order acts that would cause his elect to be condemned for acting in conflict of his revealed will of Torah?

therefore if there is a pre-life there must be an afterlife?

The whole concept breaks down because good things often come to bad people.

Does that mean they were good in a previous existence?

[ttruscott]

...


OH MY!!!.... That is ..... something?

Pre-existence based on a tension in scripture.

This tension is not the base of the theology at all but it is a support.

Does that mean that God would never do something bad to someone who had been righteous in their pre-life? Or is the fact that they are born here on earth evidence that they are guilty.

John 9:1-3

New International Version (NIV)


Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

9 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?�

3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,� said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

This verse only says he was born blind to glorify GOD with his healing and says nothing about being a sinner or not at his birth but other verses support the "all have sinned" (including fetus' and babies) idea that only sinners are born on earth: Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The import of this story is that Jesus (who had a habit of being critical of the dumb things said by disciples) never said a word about their intimation that he could have been born blind because of a sin before he was born...AND, it is curious where these simple folk might have gotten this crazy idea (after being with Jesus for three years) since it was not a doctrine of the Hebrew religion in the least.

Being that God is to good to allow bad things to happen to apparently innocent babies they must have done something in their pre-life before being born on earth?

In short, yes.

Because he would never act in a way or order acts that would cause his elect to be condemned for acting in conflict of his revealed will of Torah?

Of course the sinful elect on earth sin too and our actions on earth are also weighed and rewarded or punished as they deserve Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.", and 1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. but this does not change their status from elect (able to be redeemed) to condemned (unable to be redeemed).

therefore if there is a pre-life there must be an afterlife?

Interesting argument I had not thought about...I just believe in the after life because it is predicted.

The whole concept breaks down because good things often come to bad people. Does that mean they were good in a previous existence?

Only those who by their true free will decision became evil in HIS sight are born on earth. There are no humans who were not sinners pre-earth. No holy person has ever been born on earth.

I don't know why some very evil people are blessed with good things here on earth. Some think it is to show the foolishness of seeking wealth rather than faith. Some, notably the Puritans, felt that success and riches were a sign of GOD's acceptance of the person as a good person...alas. I don't care to hazard a guess...

Peace, Ted

[postroad]

[Replying to post 17 by ttruscott]


We still have to hash out the concept of God ordering the killing of "innocent" infants.

God had already set in place the Law against such actions. The Law is useless if we can assert that all humanity is guilty by the fact that they are born and therefore have no protection under this provision.

The killing of Saul's seed born under the Law and killed to appease the seed of those not under the Law puts God in the position of ordering an act of murder carried out through David himself.

God himself ordered that David blaspheme him by deliberately breaking the Law against murder.

What now? God indicated that nothing be taken away and nothing added to his Law.

2.Deuteronomy 12:32
See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Can God demand that a person break his Law? Is God the author of sin?

Quite literally God places David in a position "where he is damned if he does and he is damned if he don't"

So much for human free will?