Hermaphrodites?

[Ooberman]

How do Christians explain Hermaphrodites? In what world would God care about sexuality, then create people with both sex organs?

Isn't naturalism a better answer?

[Goat]

How do Christians explain Hermaphrodites? In what world would God care about sexuality, then create people with both sex organs?

Isn't naturalism a better answer?

This is a great question, and one I brought up to one of my former pastors. We were discussing whether there may be those born with an unnatural affection for the same sex. Of course his position was, this is a discission made by the individual, and that no one naturally has these affections. I brought up the very point of the OP. In other words, my question was, "then what of those born with both sex organs?" He became quiet, and then responded, "these cases, were extremely rare." But of course, that is absolutely beside the point.

My point was, and is, if there are those that are born with this physical defect, that can be detected with the eye, then how do we know if there are not also those born with unnatural affections, that we can not detect with our natural senses?

Now let me say before I continue, that I am convinced, a good number of homosexuals have made the choice, but this does not mean that no one is ever born with these unnatural affections. In other words, there may in fact be those who are born in such a way, but there are many who simply make the choice.

Now the question is, did God create people with these defects? Well, not according to the Bible. Rather it says, that God placed curses upon mankind because of sin. Now there was one poster above attempting to make a wise crack, that said,

Silly poster. God didn't do this - man did by creating sin

It is true that mankind is responsible for the sin, but according to the Bible, it was God who was responsible, for placing the curses upon us. These curses would include birth defects, no matter what defect we are talking about. But are we not all born with a birth defect? Think about it, the moment you are born, you begin to die. What are we dying from?

I find the term 'unnatural affection' to be rather biased. I personally don't htink that anyone would CHOOSE to be homosexual. What person would want to have be in a situation where there is so much prejudice against them. I have not been able to figure out how someone can control who they are sexually attracted to also.

[Haven]

. . . Hermaphrodites . . .

I know many people don't know this, but "hermaphrodite" is actually a pejorative term. The correct term for people born with physical traits of both sexes is intersex. I don't mean this as a personal attack, because I know many people don't know the former term is offensive.

Isn't naturalism a better answer?

Well, yes. If we assume a god who--for some strange reason--wants to enforce a strict gender binary, then intersex people should not exist. Because intersex people do exist, it's reasonable to conclude that a gender-binary-enforcing god doesn't exist.

[Goat]

. . . Hermaphrodites . . .

I know many people don't know this, but "hermaphrodite" is actually a pejorative term. The correct term for people born with physical traits of both sexes is intersex. I don't mean this as a personal attack, because I know many people don't know the former term is offensive.

Isn't naturalism a better answer?

Well, yes. If we assume a god who--for some strange reason--wants to enforce a strict gender binary, then intersex people should not exist. Because intersex people do exist, it's reasonable to conclude that a gender-binary-enforcing god doesn't exist.

Language changes all the time. Hermaphrodite didn't USED to be pejorative. Just wait a decade or so, and 'intersex' will be pejorative too... and a new term will be made

[connermt]

[Replying to post 10 by Realworldjack]

... it was God who was responsible, for placing the curses upon us.

Agreed. But not many christians seem to accept this

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 10 by Realworldjack]

... it was God who was responsible, for placing the curses upon us.

Agreed. But not many christians seem to accept this

Could you please show me the passage where mankind was cursed?

[connermt]

[Replying to post 10 by Realworldjack]

... it was God who was responsible, for placing the curses upon us.

Agreed. But not many christians seem to accept this

Could you please show me the passage where mankind was cursed?

A few:
Genesis 12:3 - And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake...
Genesis 3:17 - To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.

In addition, it's taught man is "cursed" in much of christianity.
Going further, one could say that god, by knowing everything and doing relatively little, has cursed those who go to hell by allowing them to go to hell (for those who believe in hell).
In addition, one could rightfully argue that things like birth defects, genetic disease, etc are 'curses' allowed by god for the fall of man, which it could have prevented ALL THE WHILE allowing for free will, less said deity is powerless and, to an extent, worthless.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 11 by Goat]

I find the term 'unnatural affection' to be rather biased.

I understand your complaint here. I actually thought about the word, "unnatural," before I used it, to determine if I indeed wanted to use it. I chose to use it, because I believe it is a unnatural desire. But I do not see any difference here between the homosexual, and myself. In other words, according to the Bible, we are all sinners, so then there may be those that struggle with certain sins, I have no trouble with.

After typing the last sentence, I may have misspoke, but I will leave it there for a purpose. We are talking of sexual desires. I may not struggle with the desire for a same sex relation, however, I do struggle with sexual desires, that according to the Bible, are sinful. As you say, I cannot control who I may be sexually attracted to, but I can decide whether or not to act on those desires. The fact that I have such sinful desires, demonstrates that I am a sinner, born with a defect. The sexual desires I have are not my real problem, but rather just symptoms of my real problem. The real problem that plagues me is the condition that I have, which is sin. This condition manifests itself differently in different people. In other words, we may have different symptoms, but we all suffer from the same condition. This is why I decided to use the word, "unnatural," because I do not believe it is biased. I assume, you believe it is biased, because you assume I believe it to be unnatural simply because it is not natural to me, but this is not the case.

My point is, according to the Bible, all the sins I commit are natural to me, because I am a natural sinner. But just because these sins are natural to me, does not mean they are actually natural. Therefore, my point is, this word, "unnatural," is not biased, because I am in the same boat with the homosexual, along with the rest of humanity, that shares the same condition I suffer from.

What person would want to have be in a situation where there is so much prejudice against them.

I have heard this argument before, but it just does not wash. Take for example, why would any woman choose to be a prostitute? Now certainly there are those who are forced into it, and there are those that believe they have no choice, but there are many who simply choose this lifestyle for whatever reason. I could continue on, there are many people who make decisions and most of the rest of us wonder why in the world they would make such a decision.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 15 by bluethread]
Genesis 3:16-19
16 To the woman he said,

I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.
17 To Adam he said, Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, You must not eat from it,

Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 11 by Goat]

I find the term 'unnatural affection' to be rather biased.

I understand your complaint here. I actually thought about the word, "unnatural," before I used it, to determine if I indeed wanted to use it. I chose to use it, because I believe it is a unnatural desire. But I do not see any difference here between the homosexual, and myself. In other words, according to the Bible, we are all sinners, so then there may be those that struggle with certain sins, I have no trouble with.

After typing the last sentence, I may have misspoke, but I will leave it there for a purpose. We are talking of sexual desires. I may not struggle with the desire for a same sex relation, however, I do struggle with sexual desires, that according to the Bible, are sinful. As you say, I cannot control who I may be sexually attracted to, but I can decide whether or not to act on those desires. The fact that I have such sinful desires, demonstrates that I am a sinner, born with a defect. The sexual desires I have are not my real problem, but rather just symptoms of my real problem. The real problem that plagues me is the condition that I have, which is sin. This condition manifests itself differently in different people. In other words, we may have different symptoms, but we all suffer from the same condition. This is why I decided to use the word, "unnatural," because I do not believe it is biased. I assume, you believe it is biased, because you assume I believe it to be unnatural simply because it is not natural to me, but this is not the case.

My point is, according to the Bible, all the sins I commit are natural to me, because I am a natural sinner. But just because these sins are natural to me, does not mean they are actually natural. Therefore, my point is, this word, "unnatural," is not biased, because I am in the same boat with the homosexual, along with the rest of humanity, that shares the same condition I suffer from.

What person would want to have be in a situation where there is so much prejudice against them.

I have heard this argument before, but it just does not wash. Take for example, why would any woman choose to be a prostitute? Now certainly there are those who are forced into it, and there are those that believe they have no choice, but there are many who simply choose this lifestyle for whatever reason. I could continue on, there are many people who make decisions and most of the rest of us wonder why in the world they would make such a decision.

I'll tell you why a woman would become a prostitute. Because of need and desperation.

Tell me, can you choose who you are sexually attracted to? I can't. I am either sexually attracted to someone, or not sexually attracted to someone. Can you choose to be sexually attracted to a man if you wanted to? I could not.

Some people are attracted to both sexes...and some of those go through cycles of who they are attracted to. I don't.

[Ooberman]

. . . Hermaphrodites . . .

I know many people don't know this, but "hermaphrodite" is actually a pejorative term. The correct term for people born with physical traits of both sexes is intersex. I don't mean this as a personal attack, because I know many people don't know the former term is offensive.

I didn't know. I will make sure I correct myself. I thought it was like "homosexual" - just a term. I learned something new!

Isn't naturalism a better answer?

Well, yes. If we assume a god who--for some strange reason--wants to enforce a strict gender binary, then intersex people should not exist. Because intersex people do exist, it's reasonable to conclude that a gender-binary-enforcing god doesn't exist.

Yep. Or, that God can't control his Creation in a way that is important for people's salvation which is either evil or bumbling idiocy.