Does Jesus Cause Evil?

[Haven]

On another thread, a Christian said:

. . . Jesus makes it clear that He is in total control of the Universe.

If Jesus is in total control of the universe, then he is also in total control of every grisly murder, brutal rape, life-destroying terrorist attack, and pestilential genocide. He causes every natural disaster, every agonizing illness, every killer pandemic, every child's death from cancer, every elderly person's suffering from Alzheimer's disease. He personally abuses every victimized child, tortures every innocent victim, and declares every miscarriage of justice.

If Jesus is in "total control of everything," then it logically follows that he is obviously the most abhorrent entity ever to exist.

Debate question: Is Jesus in "total control of the universe?" Does Jesus cause (what most would consider) evil? If he does cause evil, wouldn't that make him abhorrent? Why worship such a god?

[Zzyzx]

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It really doesn't matter - it's all made up anyhow.

If that's what you think, why read anything here or post?

Many who post here as Non-Theists do so to counter Theist propaganda, proselytizing, coercion, and attempts to inject religious preferences into society's laws. Unopposed or uncontrolled religion leads to theocracy (reference Medieval Europe and modern Iran).

Many who post here as Theists seem to think that their religious opinions and beliefs should be afforded preferential treatment (in debate as well as in society).

My motivation to post here is, in part, to present READERS with valid counter-arguments to religious claims and stories – and to emphasize that they cannot be shown to be true or accurate. Those who wish to read or write about religion without the inconvenience of having claims and stories challenged for truth may feel more comfortable in places where only pro-religion views are permitted.

Sermons that may sound convincing in church (where they are not challenged) often do not hold up well in debate (where they are challenged).

[wiploc]

No sir, GOD in unity or in separate Persons does not cause or create evil. All evil was caused / created by the free will decision of the creature to go against the revealed standards of good and evil of GOD.

The standard Christian god is all knowing, all-powerful, and totally benevolent. From the beginning, he knew every decision that anyone would ever make in every possible world (and, according to Plantinga, in every impossible world). Knowing this, knowing in which worlds people would do evil and in which worlds they wouldn't, he chose to create this world rather than one without suffering.

Therefore, we actually chose to do evil only because he first chose that we would choose to do evil. He cannot escape responsibility by laying it off on us.

The righteous (that is, not evil) judgments

The way I learned it, evil is the sources of unhappiness. Or, by extension, it is the unhappiness itself. Good is the sources of happiness, or happiness itself.

Obviously, you mean something else; a judgement that is righteous wouldn't necessarily cause only happiness. So, what do you mean by "evil"?

against the self created 'eternally evil people' and the punishments of the (temporarily) evil people used to encourage them to repent and be holy has nothing to do with the creation of evil.

Punishments make people unhappy. Thus, they are evil. What is your alternative definition that allows for punishments not to be evil?

In other words, causing suffering ≠ causing evil.

Causing suffering is exactly the definition of evil, as far as I know. Please offer us your alternative definition.

[bluethread]

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It really doesn't matter - it's all made up anyhow.

Where did I post that? I think this is the first time I have posted on this thread.

[ttruscott]

No sir, GOD in unity or in separate Persons does not cause or create evil. All evil was caused / created by the free will decision of the creature to go against the revealed standards of good and evil of GOD.

The standard Christian god is all knowing, all-powerful, and totally benevolent. From the beginning, he knew every decision that anyone would ever make in every possible world (and, according to Plantinga, in every impossible world). Knowing this, knowing in which worlds people would do evil and in which worlds they wouldn't, he chose to create this world rather than one without suffering.

Therefore, we actually chose to do evil only because he first chose that we would choose to do evil. He cannot escape responsibility by laying it off on us.

And that sir, is why I reject the pagan Greek philosophically rendered definition of HIS omnipotence as 'all knowing by HIS nature" no matter how standard the fallacy has become.

I stick with the Biblical definition of HIS 'all knowing' from Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

which implies HE is all knowing about HIS works, that is, what HE decreed to exist, and HE is all knowing from the foundation of the world, not from all eternity.

His omniscience is based upon His creative decree. Since nothing in the physical universe is or has been created without His creative decree, it is obvious that He therefore knows everything about what HE created in the ordinary sense of omniscience. This is all very ordinary but it also implies that if He did not decree something, His omniscience did not cover it.

If He did not decree the outcome of the true free will choice (made by faith, not proof), of His creatures before the foundation of the world, the outcome of their choices would not be covered by His omniscience.

IF He did not know the outcome of their true free will choice until they actually made their choice,
He had no prior knowledge of any evil they might choose nor
who would reject Him to become His eternal enemy, nor
who would answer His call to join Him in loving communion as His church nor
who would enter the church then go their own (sinful) way.

Your error is that you have been led astray by a faulty orthodoxy because if orthodoxy were true, you are right. But also, the orthodox position insists that HE knew before their creation who would go to hell but created them anyway, a blasphemy I must reject.

Peace, Ted

[Ooberman]

He had no prior knowledge of any evil they might choose nor
who would reject Him to become His eternal enemy, nor .....

Is that because gods don't exist, and are only the imaginations of Men?

Or, is it because your god is a horrible philosopher and couldn't imagine Free Will could lead to sinful behavior?

Or, was your god so horrible a designer that he designed the ability for things to fail - without knowing what failure is?

How can you claim your god is all-knowing about his works, but then designed things?

I'm a designer - and not an all-knowing one - but even I can think of some contingencies. Why couldn't your god predict cancer? Other people's gods could.


Is your god less powerful than other gods? Other gods seem to be more powerful than yours; more knowing. Why worship a lesser god?

[ttruscott]

...

The righteous (that is, not evil) judgments

The way I learned it, evil is the sources of unhappiness. Or, by extension, it is the unhappiness itself. Good is the sources of happiness, or happiness itself.

Obviously, you mean something else; a judgement that is righteous wouldn't necessarily cause only happiness. So, what do you mean by "evil"?

Righteousness and happiness may indeed be correlated but justice does not tend to create happiness in the judged. A righteous judgment means it is a correct judgment, perfectly proper to the crime, and says nothing about any happiness, which seems a little like a red herring.

By evil I accept the Christian definition which means contrary to and antagonistic to GOD's person and HIS ways, HIS decisions and His definitions of right and wrong. Righteous is in accord with GOD, HIS person, ways and definitions.

Therefore my sentence was meant to convey the idea the HIS judgment of a person for their sin is correct and not evil even though it makes them suffer since the intent of the sentence is not to be found in the suffering but only in justice.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...against the self created 'eternally evil people' and the punishments of the (temporarily) evil people used to encourage them to repent and be holy has nothing to do with the creation of evil.

Punishments make people unhappy. Thus, they are evil. What is your alternative definition that allows for punishments not to be evil?

Unhappiness as evil is not a Christian concept. No wonder you are at odds with Christianity. Unhappiness is due to sin and clinging to sin stubbornly against the entreaties of GOD to repent. If you won't repent because of HIS love, then HIS chastisements will have to do.

1 Peter 5:10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

Why do sinners suffer? Sinners not under judgement suffer punishments like a parent gives child with the intent to cause a necessary change of behaviour. Does child like it? Not at all but if that is the definition of evil any parent who frustrates their child deserves jail.

Every child of GOD is disciplined: Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 for whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.� and Hebrews 12:8 If you are not disciplined--and everyone undergoes discipline--then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. by a painful punishment: Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Since no parent causes suffering or unhappiness for good things, that this is mentioned is proof this painful discipline is for a failure to resist temptation and designed to correct wrong behaviour.

In other words, causing suffering ≠ causing evil.

Causing suffering is exactly the definition of evil, as far as I know. Please offer us your alternative definition.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

This verse indicates there are two types of suffering or grief, that which is from GOD and brings one to repentant holiness, a cause for great joy or one that comes from sin and HIS judgments upon sin causing great grief indeed.

It is also my definition of suffering that is righteous and cause for joy, not grief: Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Peace, Ted

[wiploc]

...against the self created 'eternally evil people' and the punishments of the (temporarily) evil people used to encourage them to repent and be holy has nothing to do with the creation of evil.

Punishments make people unhappy. Thus, they are evil. What is your alternative definition that allows for punishments not to be evil?

Unhappiness as evil is not a Christian concept.

I beg to differ.

... Unhappiness is due to sin ...

Yes, evil is punishment for sin.

What is your alternative definition of evil? Don't preach at me. Just answer the question.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to 1213]

Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
Matt. 28:18

I think if you will check your own quote you will notice that it is the author of Gospel Matthew who was responsible for these words and for making this claim. Jesus wrote NOTHING himself and so we don't really know what he said or personally believed on this subject. Or in fact on ANY subject. Nor do we actually know who wrote the Gospel of Matthew. It was written anonymously 50 years or so after Jesus was executed. Everything you believe or think you know about Jesus is based on the assumption of facts made by Christians for the last 2,000 years. And all of it revolving around believing that a corpse came back to life and flew away, and that he is about to come back once again, despite the undeniable fact that everyone who lived 2,000 years ago has remained quite reliably dead without exception. At some point the child like addiction to make believe should reasonably begin to give way to common sense.

[ttruscott]

...

Yes, evil is punishment for sin.

What is your alternative definition of evil? Don't preach at me. Just answer the question.

My answer is the Christian answer so I report it since asked and is allowed and not to be confused with preaching.

But since I now know personal questions are as a set up for accusation, I'm outah here,

Peace, Ted