Why should one care that God exists?

[Deidre32]

I'm an atheist but also a former Christian. Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything) why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?

If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?

Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)

Thanks!

[SEMyers]

[Replying to post 10 by Deidre32]

Greetings Deidre32

God isn't relative if you aren't interested in eternal life.

If your dreams and goals for life end with the grave, then you have the right to do and think what you want.

God is relevent for me because I honor Him as the Creator of the universe, the loving Father who choose to rescue my fallen race when He could have just as easily chosen to zap us into nothingness. He sent Jesus to take the judgment and punishment for my sins. He loved us all - even when we hated (and still hate) Him.

You have the right to feel any way you want. If judgment is a farce, then you have nothing to fear about life after death and can be quite content being worm food. If there is a God who will judge us, then it is best that you deal with the issue BEFORE you stand at the Great White Throne.

You have the right to vote either way.
S. E. Myers

[Deidre32]

[Replying to post 11 by SEMyers]

That's a fair assessment. Thanks for your reply.

Question for you: why do you think the human race is "fallen?" Do you believe that there is evidence to support the theory of evolution?

If you say you believe the Bible, may I ask why? Why not another religion over Christianity? I ask because other religions claim to be the one true path to "the God?"

[Zzyzx]

.

Most of the values that you hold to be true came from some religious ideal;

I disagree

There is no reason to assume that values that I (or others) hold dear came from some religious ideal.

For instance, I hold dear the idea of gender equality while Christianity has taught female subjugation for thousands of years. I hold dear the idea that slavery is wrong while Christianity has condoned or promoted the practice. I hold dear the idea that humans are worthwhile regardless of their religious beliefs, practices and rituals while Christianity condemns those who do not follow their preferences.

they all share some core values, and frankly, atheism (out and out atheism/humanism) just hasn't been around that long.

I disagree

Atheism (absence of belief in gods) is unlikely to be a recent development. Humans are born without a belief in gods but take up that belief when they are taught or indoctrinated. Historically, humans have invented "gods" to explain what they did not understand of nature (storms, disease, droughts, crop failures, etc).

Humanist values, ethics and morality are VERY much like most religious values, ethics and morality...so if you follow them, you are quite likely to live a 'good and moral life," just like your theist neighbors.

EXACTLY. Religious beliefs are NOT necessary to live a "good and moral life."

So, go ahead....but don't for one moment think that you don't owe them...and theism...for the basis of your own values and ethics. You do.

I paid in full the value I attribute to Theism – yesterday – a $10 donation to a Christian organization (where I do considerable volunteer work).

I also acknowledge a debt to the many great thinkers of the past from whom I have taken ideas and attitudes. However, those thinkers (or their representatives) have given no indication that I owe them something.

Likewise, if anyone has benefited or adopted ideas from me, they are free of charge – no debt – use what they can, discard what does not fit. Those who wish to charge for their ideas are obligated morally and legally to announce the charge in advance.

Since this is demonstrably true, then if there really is a God Who handed those morals and ethical values to us, then just perhaps one should care that God exists because He DID give us good values to live by.

The big IF.

In other words, He doesn't need our buy in. WE need the 'buy in" in order to fully live our lives.

I disagree.

Although Theists may wish to claim credit for their favorite "God", that is pure speculation that has no bearing on me or my life. They do NOT speak for me.

If (since) we non-believers can live a full, interesting, fulfilling, satisfying life without the "buy in" to any "god" how can it be a need?

Even if we don't believe in His existence, the rules, morals and standards that He (if he exists) has given us.

The rules, morals and standards were made up by PEOPLE. Though some may claim supernatural influence, there is no credible reason to assume they are right.

Of course, if He does not exist, you still owe those who believe in a deity anyway, because THEY are the folks who have codified the basic values and standards by which we all....even the non-believers...live.

I do not owe anyone anything unless I have agreed to pay for what they offer. Do you suggest that the supposed "debt" is inflicted involuntarily?

You may not need to believe in God in order to live a good and productive life,

Agree 100%

As for me, I believe in Him because I have, in my own way, confirmed His existence. You can do as you will, but I utterly fail to understand why I should have to give up my beliefs in order to live a 'good and productive' life simply because you don't agree with me regarding His existence.

Has someone here asked you to give up your beliefs? Has anyone suggested giving up beliefs would be required to live a "good and productive life?"

Sorry, I'm feeling more than a little testy today.

No comment. Hope you get to feeling better. We need your capable and even-handed input on the Moderating Team (and I still think you are a sweetheart even if you try to be grumpy sometimes). .

[Divine Insight]

He loved us all - even when we hated (and still hate) Him.

S. E. Myers

When I see people make statements like the one you made here I really feel a need to ask, "Do you hate God?". And if you don't hate God today, was there a time when you did hate God?"

The problem I have with this sentiment is that it simply doesn't fit with my own personal experience. There was never a time in my entire life when I hated God.

I didn't hate God when I was a Christian, and I didn't hate God when I realized that the Hebrew Bible is obviously false (my personal opinion).

In fact, even at that point I didn't become a pure secular materialist (or atheist in general). I still believe in "God" to this very day (using the term "God" quite abstractly).

I've since moved to viewing "God" quite differently from the way the Christians think of God. But to say that I hate God would be totally incorrect.

So I really can't help but ask, "Do you hate God?".

If you do, may I ask why?

And if you don't, then why do you feel that you are exempt to what you have just proclaimed to be true of humanity in general?

I'm sincerely interested hearing what you are actually thinking.

[enaidealukal]

I always have a hard time understanding how one could not care. Sort of alot riding on the question. Not least of which is this- in light of the facts of existence, any God must be either sadistic or fictional. If the former, it is a matter of conscience whether one submits oneself and becomes an accomplice to gratuitous suffering. If the latter, it is a matter of intellectual conscience whether one becomes an accomplice to deluding oneself and others with an infantalizing myth. So if nothing else, there are some moral issues hanging on the question.

[Zzyzx]

.

God isn't relative if you aren't interested in eternal life.

If "eternal life" could be shown to be something other than conjecture and imagination, many non-believers might be interested.

If your dreams and goals for life end with the grave, then you have the right to do and think what you want.

Regardless whether one thinks their life ends with "the grave" they can still do what they want – including Christians who claim to be "saved" and "forgiven" provided they ask forgiveness and repent before they die.

God is relevent for me because I honor Him as the Creator of the universe, the loving Father who choose to rescue my fallen race when He could have just as easily chosen to zap us into nothingness.

If one believes in an omnipotent, omniscient "god", that "god" could also have avoided creating a "fallen race" by using better judgment. Poor engineering and lack of foresight is the fault of the "creator" rather than the product.

He sent Jesus to take the judgment and punishment for my sins. He loved us all - even when we hated (and still hate) Him.

If Jesus "took the judgment and punishment for your sins" are you free to "sin?"

You have the right to feel any way you want. If judgment is a farce, then you have nothing to fear about life after death and can be quite content being worm food. If there is a God who will judge us, then it is best that you deal with the issue BEFORE you stand at the Great White Throne.

If there is a god, which one of the thousands proposed is assured to be the one to worship or fear?

[Divine Insight]

If your dreams and goals for life end with the grave, then you have the right to do and think what you want.

S. E. Myers

This is another comment you've made that has me curious.

If there is a benevolent loving God, then why should I feel that this God would want me to do anything that I don't naturally want to do anyway?

I don't understand this idea that humans would necessarily want to do things that would conflict with a loving benevolent God. Especially the people who desire to believe in a God? Or who would desire an afterlife.

Just because atheists don't believe in a God or and afterlife doesn't mean that they wouldn't necessarily like to have one. It also doesn't mean that they would necessarily want to do things that are not benevolent and loving.

What's the point in having goals for an afterlife? Do you have goals for an afterlife? If so what are your goals? If you say that your goal in an afterlife is to just do whatever some God demands of you, then I would suggest that you have no goals at all. The only way you could have goals for an afterlife is if you have some sort of plans or imagination of what the afterlife might be like.

It seem to me that to suggest that atheists have a goal to die in the grave is basically rude and insulting to an atheist. To simply not believe in an afterlife is hardly having a goal to die in a grave.

I can't imagine why any benevolent God would be mean to anyone simply because they don't believe in an afterlife. That would hardly be a benevolent God.

This is a huge problem I have with Christianity. They claim to have a benevolent God, yet at the same time they seem to constantly be demanding that he's anything but benevolent.

I don't see where Christianity is any different from Islam in this regard. The Muslims make the same claims about the Christians. Failure to believe in the Qur'an and Muhammad is twisted in the very same way to imply that you hate Allah and refuse to have the goal to "serve" Allah.

Why would any omnipotent Gods need mere humans to "serve" them anyway?

I mean, I like to entertain the idea of a potential "God", but the idea that it would somehow need me to serve it in any way seems absurd. That would be a needy God indeed.

[Deidre32]

[Replying to post 17 by Divine Insight]

I love what you replied. So much food for thought. I plan to comment more tomorrow, but going to sleep. Thank you everyone for providing your own insights into my question

[enaidealukal]

Most of the values that you hold to be true came from some religious ideal...

So, go ahead....but don't for one moment think that you don't owe them...and theism...for the basis of your own values and ethics. You do.

Since this is demonstrably true...

So let's see this demonstration, because it certainly sounds like you're making it up as you go along. Most of our values and moral norms being based on some form of theism? I'm guessing this is news to... well, everyone. Particularly anthropologists and evolutionary biologists who have observed proto-moral behaviors in primates, and who theorize that morality arose as an adaptation probably sometime a waaaaaays back in our evolutionary history. According to most experts, morality predates religion, not the other way around. But perhaps you know something nobody else does, so I'll await this demonstration.

In any case, its quite likely that most people's values nowadays owe more to secular moral philosophies (like utilitarianism) than they do to any religious ethics. Religious ethics are fundamentally authoritarian and patriarchal (among other things), which doesn't really jive with modern sensibilities- and with good reason. And before we toot the horn of religion's great contributions to morality, let's keep in mind that many of these contributions have been negative- indeed, theism's particular flavor of ethics (i.e. divine command) is something the world probably could have done without, seeing as it can/does sanction virtually any action regardless of how reprehensible. It also makes morality purely arbitrary- contingent on the whims of God. And many of the ethical principles peculiar to theism in general, or particular forms of theism, have been largely pernicious- Christianity's vilification of sex, for instance. Islam's degradation of women, for another. One would also do well to question the ethical implications of many forms of theism's non-ethical doctrines (for instance, the otherworldliness implied by the existence of an afterlife).

Anyways, I can understand being proud of and loyal to one's religious affiliation- but it seems like you're letting that get in the way of facts and honesty here.

[Elijah John]

IF God exists (and I believe He does) then the existence of God is Reality, ultimate reality.

And folks are usually better off being connected to reality.

And for me anyway, acknowledging the existence of God gives one a sense of being completed, like a circuit that is connected, plugged in.

But it is all about relationship, not intellectual assent. People are more fufilled when in relationsip with others, with other people. And for us believers, God is the ULTIMATE Person.

And if one believers in God, especially YHVH as revealed by Jesus, one must see EVERY person as someone who is loved by God, and hence has significance and value. Even "outcasts".

And there is the whole judge thing. To whatever degree that God IS a judge, then we should all be concerned with what pleases Him.