Do you believe in God?

[atheist buddy]

Hi, this is just a basic poll. I'd just like to get the sense of how many theists and atheists there are on this forum.

Feel free to add comments if you like, but primarily please answer the poll question.

Thanks
AB

[Divine Insight]

For me, my personal understanding of the Personal God, is that He is pure Spirit, aware and caring of His Creation...but generally non-interventionist, except for governing the Universe through His laws of phyics, nature and evolution. And governing human affairs through free will, Reason implanted in good people, and Wisdom.

I realize this isn't intended as a debate thread, even though it's in a debate forum. And the debate topic is not about defining a "personal God", none the less I'm curious about your last statement here:

And governing human affairs through free will, Reason implanted in good people, and Wisdom.

"Reason implanted in good people"?

That causes me to ask where "bad people" or "unreasonable people" came from?

Did this same personal God create "bad and unreasonable people" too, and if so, why did this personal caring God create such persons?

This question probably deserves a thread of it's own.

I also question how a personal God can "govern human affairs through free will", and if that's true, then surely free will cannot simultaneously be pointed to as the nemesis of such governing.

So where do "bad, unreasonable, and unwise" people come from in this paradigm then?

I'm just asking. And I'm not even sure if this thread is the proper place to discuss this since the author of this thread made no mention of a "personal God" or offer any definitions concerning how "God" might be defined.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

And I wasn't looking to get into all that here either. Just wondering what folks meant when they said they did NOT believe in a personal God, and comparing that to my own understanding OF a personal God.

[FarWanderer]

I voted "no" under the assumption that we are talking about a personal God.

Never quite sure what folks mean when they say a "personal" God that they disbelieve in. Do they (you) mean an anthropomorphic King in the sky with a long white beard, or an almighty Spirit, the ground of being who is conscious of his Creation and cares about it.?

I mean God isn't a person. I don't believe in any God that has interests or goals or preferences or makes choices. God has no self, no "I".

I was at the a conference once and someone said "God has no more awareness than does an equation".

I completely disagree with that statement, is that a description of a NON personal God?

I'm OK with a God that has awareness, but not self-awareness.

[dianaiad]

I voted "no" under the assumption that we are talking about a personal God.

Never quite sure what folks mean when they say a "personal" God that they disbelieve in. Do they (you) mean an anthropomorphic King in the sky with a long white beard, or an almighty Spirit, the ground of being who is conscious of his Creation and cares about it.?

I mean God isn't a person. I don't believe in any God that has interests or goals or preferences or makes choices. God has no self, no "I".

I was at the a conference once and someone said "God has no more awareness than does an equation".

I completely disagree with that statement, is that a description of a NON personal God?

I'm OK with a God that has awareness, but not self-awareness.

Question: why must God not be self aware?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 14 by dianaiad]

Also, if we humans are self aware, and there is a God, (and I believe there is) why wouldn't God be self aware as well, bein' greater than us and all....?

How could a being be aware, but not self-aware? (? for farwanderer) unless that being is on the level with the animals (much as I love 'em) and not higher than us humans?

[Suzy]

No.

[Divine Insight]

How could a being be aware, but not self-aware? (? for farwanderer) unless that being is on the level with the animals (much as I love 'em) and not higher than us humans?

Simple. Your assumption that being self-aware of our ego is something "higher" than not being self-aware of our ego may itself be an errant hierarchical judgement.

Many spiritual faiths actually teach that it is precisely our obsession with the "self" that is preventing us from reaching divine consciousness which is a consciousness that is no obsessed with self-awareness.

So animals may actually be closer to "god-consciousness" than we are. And if that's true then they are actually on a spiritual level that is 'higher' than us.

[atheist buddy]

I voted "no" under the assumption that we are talking about a personal God.

Never quite sure what folks mean when they say a "personal" God that they disbelieve in. Do they (you) mean an anthropomorphic King in the sky with a long white beard, or an almighty Spirit, the ground of being who is conscious of his Creation and cares about it.?

I mean God isn't a person. I don't believe in any God that has interests or goals or preferences or makes choices. God has no self, no "I".

I was at the a conference once and someone said "God has no more awareness than does an equation".

I completely disagree with that statement, is that a description of a NON personal God?

I'm OK with a God that has awareness, but not self-awareness.

Question: why must God not be self aware?

Because he doesn't exist.

Only entities which exist can be self-aware.

[dianaiad]

I voted "no" under the assumption that we are talking about a personal God.

Never quite sure what folks mean when they say a "personal" God that they disbelieve in. Do they (you) mean an anthropomorphic King in the sky with a long white beard, or an almighty Spirit, the ground of being who is conscious of his Creation and cares about it.?

I mean God isn't a person. I don't believe in any God that has interests or goals or preferences or makes choices. God has no self, no "I".

I was at the a conference once and someone said "God has no more awareness than does an equation".

I completely disagree with that statement, is that a description of a NON personal God?

I'm OK with a God that has awareness, but not self-awareness.

Question: why must God not be self aware?

Because he doesn't exist.

Only entities which exist can be self-aware.

Now that, friends and neighbors, is what we call a 'positive claim."

Prove it.

[atheist buddy]

I voted "no" under the assumption that we are talking about a personal God.

Never quite sure what folks mean when they say a "personal" God that they disbelieve in. Do they (you) mean an anthropomorphic King in the sky with a long white beard, or an almighty Spirit, the ground of being who is conscious of his Creation and cares about it.?

I mean God isn't a person. I don't believe in any God that has interests or goals or preferences or makes choices. God has no self, no "I".

I was at the a conference once and someone said "God has no more awareness than does an equation".

I completely disagree with that statement, is that a description of a NON personal God?

I'm OK with a God that has awareness, but not self-awareness.

Question: why must God not be self aware?

Because he doesn't exist.

Only entities which exist can be self-aware.

Now that, friends and neighbors, is what we call a 'positive claim."

Prove it.

Dang! I cannot prove God doesn't exist. Therefore God exists.

You won the argument. Oh well.


By the way.

I cannot prove that Humpty Dumpty doesn't exist. Therefore Humpty Dumpty exists.

I cannot prove Santa doesn't exist. Therefore Santa exists.

I cannot prove Frosty the Snowman doesn't exist. Therefore Frosty the Snowman exists.

I cannot prove Vishnu doesn't exist. Therefore Vishnu exists.

I cannot prove Gandalf doesn't exist. Therefore Gandalf exists.



So, in conclusion, we have two options:

Either

a) God, Humpty Dumpty, Santa, Frosty the Snowman, Vishnu and Gandalf and every other fictional character ever invented all exist, because I fail to back up my positive claim that they don't exist.

or

b) There is something dead wrong with that logic, and just because I cannot prove the non-existence of something, doesn't mean that it's reasonable to believe that the thing exists


The truth is that we can never truly prove with 100% certainty whether something exists or not. Proof is for mathematical theorems, not for determining the existence of entities in the real world.

All we can do is look at the evidence and try to construct logically sound arguments using the evidence as premises.

For example:

1) There is no more reason to believe that Steve was abducted by aliens, than there is to believe George was abducted by aliens.
2) We do not believe George was abducted by aliens.
3) Therefore we should not believe Steve was abduted by aliens

Do you agree with this syllogism? If there is no good reason to believe that either Steve or George were abducted by aliens, and you believe Steve was but George wasn't, then you are not being consistant and you're not being rational.

Let's apply that to your dogmatic belief:

1) There is no more reason to believe the god of the Bible exists, than there is to believe the Gods of Ancient Greece exist
2) We don't believe in the Gods of Ancient Greece
3) Therefore we should not believe the God of the Bible exists

If it is indeed true that there is no more reason to believe in the God of the Bible than in the Gods of Ancient Greece, and if it is indeed true that you don't believe in the Gods of ancient Greece, then it is logically inescapable that you should not believe in the God of the Bible either.

So, if you want to justify your belief in God, you have to demonstrate that one of the two premises of my argument is wrong. In other words, either admit that you believe in the Gods of ancient greece, or demonstrate that there is more reason to believe in the God of the Bible than in the Gods of Ancient Greece.

If you don't do that, then you've officially declared yourself the holder of an inconsistant, irrational, illogical set of beliefs. It's your prerogative to live your life as you wish, but if one day you meet somebody who believes the best way to teach his daughter about chemistry is by burning her face with battery acid, you CANNOT criticize him for having irrational or illogical beliefs, because you have declared with your belief in God that irrational, illogical beliefs are acceptable.