Do (many) religions tend to demean women?

[Zzyzx]

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Do (many) religions tend to demean women?
If so, why?

Examples?

Justification?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to bluethread]

Your not using an apples to apples comparison. Your using a contract vs non contract comparison. While I agree its not fair that the two types of workers don't get paid for the same job where equal work was performed, to do a proper comparison you would have to compare your wages against women in the same situation. Your essentially saying space X employees get paid less than NASA employees if NASA contracted space X for the same project. You are not comparing men and women at Space X.


Yes it is the law of the land but it is highly flawed. Companies tend to not hire litigious individuals. If my wife sued her previous employer she would have torpedoed her career. So the Equal Pay act did jack all to help us.

I agree culture is the main issue but religion largely influences and permeates culture. It is not possible to remove the Christian faith from the argument as it has played a large roll in influencing this culture.


The bible has been the primary source of keeping things unequal in the American workplace. Its verses are used to defend a male oriented scenario. Islam and the Koran are used similarly.

[bluethread]

[Replying to bluethread]

Your not using an apples to apples comparison. Your using a contract vs non contract comparison. While I agree its not fair that the two types of workers don't get paid for the same job where equal work was performed, to do a proper comparison you would have to compare your wages against women in the same situation. Your essentially saying space X employees get paid less than NASA employees if NASA contracted space X for the same project. You are not comparing men and women at Space X.

That is the root of my point. Pay equity people rarely compare apples. they use anecdotal evidence or broad statistics, ie. the average of all women or all women in a given profession compared to all men or all men in a given profession.

Yes it is the law of the land but it is highly flawed. Companies tend to not hire litigious individuals. If my wife sued her previous employer she would have torpedoed her career. So the Equal Pay act did jack all to help us.

So, what do you suggest?

I agree culture is the main issue but religion largely influences and permeates culture. It is not possible to remove the Christian faith from the argument as it has played a large roll in influencing this culture.

Again, it is illegal for an employer to use such an argument. Are you saying that atheists do not discriminate? If that is the case, why aren't atheists gathering up the brightest and the best and beating the pants off of theists?

The bible has been the primary source of keeping things unequal in the American workplace. Its verses are used to defend a male oriented scenario. Islam and the Koran are used similarly.

How does the bible stop people in these United States from competing in the open market and taking ad vantage of government programs and charity?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

Well for one thing a simple fix would be to keep such suits confidential for both parties. So as to keep such litigation from effecting ones long term career.

Yes it is illegal to discriminate based on religion. That is not what I am talking about. Religion influences culture which in turn influences perception. Especially with regards to gender typing. This creates an underyling atmosphere where perception in some circumstances trumps data. The net result is where an industry avg of 70-80 cents on the dollar difference between men and women. This is a problem that one paragraph does not justify. Suffice it to say though, that gender discrimination is endemic of Abrahamic based cultures.

I did not bring up atheist who discriminate, simply because it is such an extreme minority that it largely does not make an impact on the public discourse in the same way Christianity does. Certainly there are some misogynistic atheists, however as Atheism has no concrete tennets I fail to see how it impacts beyond the individual.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 12 by bluethread]

Well for one thing a simple fix would be to keep such suits confidential for both parties. So as to keep such litigation from effecting ones long term career.

How does one do that? We already have the John/Jane Doe option and do you really wish to remove the right to a public trial and to be faced by one's accusers from our legal system?

Yes it is illegal to discriminate based on religion. That is not what I am talking about. Religion influences culture which in turn influences perception. Especially with regards to gender typing. This creates an underyling atmosphere where perception in some circumstances trumps data. The net result is where an industry avg of 70-80 cents on the dollar difference between men and women. This is a problem that one paragraph does not justify. Suffice it to say though, that gender discrimination is endemic of Abrahamic based cultures.

Well, what is the Abrahamic influence in the Chinese Communist Party, where there are practically no women in leadership? Can you provide cause and effect data to support your assertion that the difference is due to "Abrahamic" influence? As you pointed out earlier, there are a lot of apples and oranges when one is talking about and industry average.

I did not bring up atheist who discriminate, simply because it is such an extreme minority that it largely does not make an impact on the public discourse in the same way Christianity does. Certainly there are some misogynistic atheists, however as Atheism has no concrete tennets I fail to see how it impacts beyond the individual.

That does not explain all of the Asian and third world countries where "Abrahamic" influence is the minority? How many societies throughout history have achieved this holy grail of "gender equality"?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 14 by bluethread]

Some Asian cultures have their own gender issues and a lot of it is cultural with their own religious/semi-religious failings. I don't think christianity would be relevant there either just like atheism isn't relevant in this case. I suppose there are other underlying issues. Even in secular societies I would not expect to see a change for many generations. Gender types are ingrained within cultures and it is hard to change them. Look at racism for example in the south. I went to an all white school 30+ years after Brown vs Board of education. These are not things that simply disappear when one discards religion. Take the Soviet Union, even though the state discarded the Orthodox Church its customs beliefs and practices still permeated communist Russia. This is sort of why you can't just simply discard religion and expect things to be honky dory.

We are talking about a culture that has been around for roughly 1700 years. This is not something that changes over night or within one generation. When we talk about do religions demean women. The real underlying issue is we are not talking about the religion itself but the culture that surrounded the religion at the time of its creation. Given that most religions around today have 2-4k+ year histories. We can look at the cultures during this period and see how they treated women. These holy scriptures and religions are essentially time stamps as to what culture was like back then. Hence why in a progressive society that seeks to improve upon itself religion is more of a detriment than an encouragement. As the ideologies surrounding it are anchored at the time of their creation.

So the question is Do religions tend to demean women?

My answer is yes as cultures at that time period demean women. We are more advanced philosophically and morally now than we were 1000 years ago. Things have also changed. The type of work that we do now is different than what we did back then. Many women can do the jobs of men just as well if not better in some cases. There is no longer a physical limitation.

Just look at combat. You don't need to be particularly strong to fire a gun but 1000 years ago carrying armor plating a sword a shield etc. fighting as a soldier was very physically demanding. Now not so much. Currently some of the most fearsome fighters against ISIS are the Kurdish female warriors. The ISIS combatants are actually afraid of them because if they get killed by a women they will not get a martyrs death. They will not be rewarded in the after life.

Indeed times are changing 50 years ago I probably could not have been a stay at home dad but now there are roughly 2 million stay at home dads. My wife could not have the career she has 50 years ago now she can. Things are looking positive in terms of gender equality.

As far as keeping court records a judge can and does sequester a public trial. Underage individuals often have the court records sealed. A john Doe and Jane due suit does not mean what you think it means.

It simply is a suit in which the names of the individuals being sued are unknown and whence they are discovered the court record will be amended. It does nothing to protect the identity of the plaintiff. Perhaps Danmark could shed some light here?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 15 by DanieltheDragon]

I remembered hearing that the only Asian culture not experiencing gendercide was South Korea.

Here's one story on this.
http://www.economist.com/node/15606229

It's also becoming if not is a 'Christian country'.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 16 by Wootah]

If you read the article it shows the solution educating women, anti-discrimination lawsuits and equal rights legislation. All things I advocate. It also said gendercide was indifferent to those with Christian backgrounds. S. Korea is only 28% Christian hardly what I would call a Christian nation it is however mostly irreligious.

I also did not exclude Asian countries please refer to my post above.

[Zzyzx]

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Here are a few bible references to women that MUST BE "out of context" or "not what it really means" or "not properly translated" or "needs to be rephrased (changed)."

Can ALL of them be explained away or excused?

GENESIS
2:22 Eve created from Adam’s rib.
3:16 Eve cursed with painful childbirth and domination by husband.
4:19 Man marries two wives.
12:13-19 Abraham prostitutes wife.
19:1-8 Rape virgin daughters instead of male angels.
19:26 Lot’s wife turned into pillar of salt for disobeying god.
19:30-38 Lot impregnates his two daughters while drunk.
20:2-12 Abraham prostitutes wife – again.
25:1-6 Keeping many concubines is OK.

EXODUS
20:17 Wife as property.
21:4 Wife and children belong to master.
21:7-11 OK to sell daughters. Female slaves can be used for sex. Polygamy permitted. Unwanted female slaves can be set “free� without payment of money.
22:18 Kill witches.

LEVITICUS
12:1-8 Childbirth unclean, Women need to make atonement after childbirth.
15:19-32 Menstruating women are unclean.
20:10-16 Death penalty for homosexuality and various sexual transgressions.
21:7 Priests must not marry prostitutes or divorcees.
21:9 Burn daughters.
21:13-14 Priest must marry virgin, not “used� woman.

NUMBERS
1:2 Census lists only men – women do not count.
5:11-31 Fidelity test for women only.
30:1-16 Woman’s vow invalid unless approved by her father or husband.
31:17-18 Kill all except virgins. Keep virgins for yourselves.
12 Miriam punished for rebuking Moses.

DEUTERONOMY
20:14 Take women, livestock as plunder.
22:13-21 Stone non-virgin bride.
22:23-24 Stone rapist and rape victim.
22:28 Rape victim must marry rapist; rape victim’s father compensated for depreciation of his property.
25:11-12 Cut woman’s hand for touching foe’s penis.
24:1-5 Man can “send� wife from HIS house. Man must not marry “used� woman.
28:18 The FRUIT of your womb will be cursed – eclectic “pro-life� verse!

JUDGES
5:30 Women are spoils of war.
14:20 Samson gives wife to another man.
16:1 Samson visits prostitute.
CH 19 Concubine pack-raped and butchered.
21:10-12 Slaughtered all inc. women and children. Saved virgins for wives.
21:21 Abducted girls for wives.

1 SAMUEL
15:2-3 Attack Amalekites, kill men, women, children and livestock.
22:19 Kill all inc. infants and livestock.
21:4-5 Men avoid defilement with women.

2 SAMUEL
5:13 David took many wives and concubines.
CH 13 Ammon rapes his own sister.
16:21-22 Absalom sleeps with his father’s concubines.
6:20-23 Mischal punished with bareness.

1 KINGS
11:3 Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

2 KINGS
9:30-37 Brutal murder of Jezebel.

2 CHRONICLES
15:13 Put to death unbelievers.
11:21 Hoards of wives and concubines.

ESTHER
CH 1-2 Queen Vashti dethroned for disobedience; setting “bad� example to all other women.

PSALMS
51:5 Sinful since conception.
127:3 Sons are heritage from god.
137:9 Seizes infants and dashes them against rocks.

PROVERBS
CH 5 Beware of wicked women!
CH 7 More of the above.
6:24 As above.
31:3 Do not waste strength on women.

ISAIAH
3:16-26 Lord punishes haughty women.
4:4 Filthy women.
13:16 Ravish wives, dash infants.
19:16 Will be like women! (insult to Egyptians)

EZEKIEL
9:6-7 Slaughter all including children.
CH 16 Prostitutes, stoning, promiscuity…
CH 23 Tale of two adulterous sisters – reads like the script of a pornographic film. I bet you weren’t told this story at Sunday school!

HOSEA
13:16 Rip pregnant women, dash little ones. (Another “pro-life� verse!)

NAHUM
3:4… wanton lust of a harlot… prostitution… witchcraft.
3:5 I will lift your skirts over your face!
3:13… Your troops are all women. (insult to Nineveh)

MATTHEW
5:32 Husband can divorce wife for adultery. Can wife divorce husband for the same?
CH 25 Sexist tale of ten virgins.

LUKE
2:22 Mary must be purified after birth of Jesus.
2:49 Jesus rebukes his mother.

I CORINTHIANS
11:2-10… Woman created for man.
14:34 Women must be silent in churches.

EPHESIANS
5:22-24 Wives must submit to husbands in everything.

COLOSSIANS
3:18 Wives submit to husbands.
3:22 Slaves must obey masters in everything.

I TIMOTHY
2:11-15 Woman must not have authority – she must be silent. Women can be saved with childbearing.
5:9-10 Widows should be faithful to husband and must wash saints’ feet.

1 PETER
2:18 Slaves submit to masters, even masters who are harsh.
3:1 Wives submit.
3:5-6 Sarah calls husband master.

REVELATION
CH 17 Destroy great prostitute.
14:4…they did not DEFILE themselves with women but kept themselves pure.

http://www.religiouscriticism.com/bible ... ist-bible/

BTW: Why are women typically not allowed to be preachers / priests / popes / bishops / cardinals / etc -- unless they are second-class citizens?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

So you have personally vetted that list and are happy that it represents you?

Genesis 2:22 occurs to you as sexist? Can you objectively demonstrate it is or will it be your opinion?

[Wootah]

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Surely you can concede something towards the obvious growth in Christianity in Sth Korea and decline in gendercide?