I cannot comprehend the almost unilateral Christian voice against abortion. Since when has God taken an issue with innocent children?
1Sa 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek. Claim everything they have for God by destroying it. Don't spare them, but kill men and women, infants and children, cows and sheep, camels and donkeys."
Eze 5:17 (God Speaking)
I will send famines and wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children. I will send plagues, violence, and wars to kill you. I, the LORD, have spoken."
Eze 9:6 (God speaking)
Kill old men, young men, old women, young women, and children. But don't come near anyone who has a mark on him. Start with my holy place." So they started with the old men in front of the temple.
Hos 9:16
"The people of Ephraim are like sick plants. Their roots are dried up. They have no fruit. Even if they were to have children, I would kill their dear children."
Exo 4:23
This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son. I told you to let my son go so that he may worship me. But you refused to let him go. So now I'm going to kill your firstborn son.'"
Exo 12:12
"On that same night I will go throughout Egypt and kill every firstborn male, both human and animal. I will severely punish all the gods of Egypt, because I am the LORD.
It's too bad God couldn't have the same decency as his followers when dealing with Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites, and Jebusites. Every young child of these nations was murdered due to the sins of the parents. Relating this to the current situation, the woman requesting an abortion probably engaged in lascivious sexual intercourse, a grave sin. By God's standards, her unborn child needs to be slaughtered.
If this is not the official Biblical doctrine on abortion, pray tell me, just what is?
True Christians love abortion
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The Persnickety Platypus
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Post #11
Since no one Christians seem to be defending their stances adequately and effectively, I will try my best to answer these arguments and perhaps make it clear to pro-choicers why these selected passages to not advocate any kind of abortion.
Firstly
1Sa 15:3
"Now go and attack Amalek. Claim everything they have for God by destroying it. Don't spare them, but kill men and women, infants and children, cows and sheep, camels and donkeys."
This verse is Samuel speaking God's will to Saul, the king of Israel at the time. Samuel tells Saul to destroy all of the Amalekites since they opposed the Israelites flight from Egypt. God may tolerate ignoring His will, but he does not tolerate the hampering of His will being done. The entire population of Amalekites were killed in order to show the strength and power of God.
Eze 5:17 (God Speaking)
I will send famines and wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children. I will send plagues, violence, and wars to kill you. I, the LORD, have spoken."
This passage is a portion of God's judgement on Israel for their lack of adherence to God's will for them. The reason God does not wipeout the Israelites for this but he wipes out other nations is because the Israelites were God's chosen people. The Israelites had defiled God's temple with idols and vile practices. This was God's punishment against them for their complete disregard for his commandments.
Eze 9:6 (God speaking)
Kill old men, young men, old women, young women, and children. But don't come near anyone who has a mark on him. Start with my holy place." So they started with the old men in front of the temple.
This was an order by God to those men appointed to punish the city of Jerusalem and its idolaters. God ordered one of the men to make his way through the city putting marks on the foreheads of those who wept for the sinners around them: this mark would save their lives. Those who God ordered be killed were people who had blatantly disobeyed God's will, had worshipped false idols, and had defiled the temple.
Hos 9:16
"The people of Ephraim are like sick plants. Their roots are dried up. They have no fruit. Even if they were to have children, I would kill their dear children."
This verse is also referring to God's punishment on Israel due to their disobedience. He is saying that the Israelites no longer are what they were when he first made them his people. In this area in the Bible, most references to "your children" or "their children" or "Israel's children" actually define the succeeding generations of Israelites in general, not specifically children of parents. God is saying that the Israelites will die out.
The next two verses are both dealing with Israel's flight from Egypt. The Egyptians refused to release the Israelites, and since God does not tolerate the retarding of his will, he took measures against the Egyptians.
None of these verses indicate abortion at all. All of the killing of children in these verses was God killing sinful children from sinful nations that had directly undermined God's will. Abortion is the killing of a child for one's own selfish desires, and solves nothing. Someone may argue "what if a woman gets raped: the thought of a child by that rapist would be too much": There are plenty of alternatives to abortion. There's adoption, there's a "Morning After Pill". You could even drop off your baby at the local fire station and, no questions asked, they will take your baby. The thought of having killed a child deliberately would be just as bad a thought.
"What if the mother risks death to give birth?" That is possibly one exception to allow the removal of the child prematurely from the mother.
Any questions, comments, concerns?
Firstly
1Sa 15:3
"Now go and attack Amalek. Claim everything they have for God by destroying it. Don't spare them, but kill men and women, infants and children, cows and sheep, camels and donkeys."
This verse is Samuel speaking God's will to Saul, the king of Israel at the time. Samuel tells Saul to destroy all of the Amalekites since they opposed the Israelites flight from Egypt. God may tolerate ignoring His will, but he does not tolerate the hampering of His will being done. The entire population of Amalekites were killed in order to show the strength and power of God.
Eze 5:17 (God Speaking)
I will send famines and wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children. I will send plagues, violence, and wars to kill you. I, the LORD, have spoken."
This passage is a portion of God's judgement on Israel for their lack of adherence to God's will for them. The reason God does not wipeout the Israelites for this but he wipes out other nations is because the Israelites were God's chosen people. The Israelites had defiled God's temple with idols and vile practices. This was God's punishment against them for their complete disregard for his commandments.
Eze 9:6 (God speaking)
Kill old men, young men, old women, young women, and children. But don't come near anyone who has a mark on him. Start with my holy place." So they started with the old men in front of the temple.
This was an order by God to those men appointed to punish the city of Jerusalem and its idolaters. God ordered one of the men to make his way through the city putting marks on the foreheads of those who wept for the sinners around them: this mark would save their lives. Those who God ordered be killed were people who had blatantly disobeyed God's will, had worshipped false idols, and had defiled the temple.
Hos 9:16
"The people of Ephraim are like sick plants. Their roots are dried up. They have no fruit. Even if they were to have children, I would kill their dear children."
This verse is also referring to God's punishment on Israel due to their disobedience. He is saying that the Israelites no longer are what they were when he first made them his people. In this area in the Bible, most references to "your children" or "their children" or "Israel's children" actually define the succeeding generations of Israelites in general, not specifically children of parents. God is saying that the Israelites will die out.
The next two verses are both dealing with Israel's flight from Egypt. The Egyptians refused to release the Israelites, and since God does not tolerate the retarding of his will, he took measures against the Egyptians.
None of these verses indicate abortion at all. All of the killing of children in these verses was God killing sinful children from sinful nations that had directly undermined God's will. Abortion is the killing of a child for one's own selfish desires, and solves nothing. Someone may argue "what if a woman gets raped: the thought of a child by that rapist would be too much": There are plenty of alternatives to abortion. There's adoption, there's a "Morning After Pill". You could even drop off your baby at the local fire station and, no questions asked, they will take your baby. The thought of having killed a child deliberately would be just as bad a thought.
"What if the mother risks death to give birth?" That is possibly one exception to allow the removal of the child prematurely from the mother.
Any questions, comments, concerns?
Post #12
Sure i have a comment, all you said was the elaboration of my posts so-
"Since no one Christians seem to be defending their stances adequately and effectively, I will try my best to answer these arguments and perhaps make it clear to pro-choicers why these selected passages to not advocate any kind of abortion. "
Speak for yourself next time, and try helping out other than trying to spot weaknesses that are not clear.
"Since no one Christians seem to be defending their stances adequately and effectively, I will try my best to answer these arguments and perhaps make it clear to pro-choicers why these selected passages to not advocate any kind of abortion. "
Speak for yourself next time, and try helping out other than trying to spot weaknesses that are not clear.
Post #13
I'm sorry, i did not know i was elaborating on "The old testament is obsolete" and "King James only". When I reread my post, I noticed that I was actually answering the original post as the poster probably intended it to be answered. Although I dislike having to argue to fellow Christians, I will do so if necessary.Paveway wrote:Sure i have a comment, all you said was the elaboration of my posts so-
"Since no one Christians seem to be defending their stances adequately and effectively, I will try my best to answer these arguments and perhaps make it clear to pro-choicers why these selected passages to not advocate any kind of abortion. "
Speak for yourself next time, and try helping out other than trying to spot weaknesses that are not clear.
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juliod
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Post #14
...and then...The KJV is the ONLY book i will take referance to
...which isn't KJV.22"Now suppose two people are fighting, and in the process, they hurt a pregnant woman so her child is born prematurely. If no further harm results, then the person responsible must pay damages in the amount the woman's husband demands and the judges approve."
I quoted from 3 different versions in hope of getting at least one right for you.
Why do you use the KJV? It's based on the Textus Receptus which was rushed into print in the 1600's to beat out the competition. Unfortunately for christian it was known to be full of errors even back then.
No it isn't. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Miscarriages are abortions too, sometimes called "spontaneous abortions".Abortion is the process of going to a Hospital and saying "i don't want this baby, kill it".
Funny thing is, it doesn't say that in the bible.The baby is not in sin, and if the baby dies becasue of prenatal problems God is punishing the parents or ancestral sin.
No. What lunatic version are you using? I thought you said you use the KJV? "Well, what's the use?" What kind of language is that? The New Snot-Faced Punk Version?Ecclesiastes 6.
Much better don't you think?
Funny thing is, it doesn't say that in the bible.Also when God commands offspring to die, In the OT, he does this because the children will grow to be more sinful than the parents, and they will be out of control, so since only God knows the heart, he knows that the children will NEVER turn to good only bad, now i say KILL THEM.
Nothing touching on abortion is written in the New Testement. It's not prohibited.But you see that is teh OLD testament you find a verse/s like that in the NEW testament.
DanZ
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juliod
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Post #15
Glad to see you are still around Axe.
The bible as a whole is very patriarchal. Children and the unborn are the property of the husband. When in Exodus where the causing of a miscarriage is mentioned, the punishment is a fine levied by the husband. If the husband doesn't choose to levy a fine, or if the women is not married, there is no punishment.
Given the other aspects I mentioned in my post, there is no biblical case against abortion. You are free, of course, to oppose abortion for secular reasons, but to pretend to do so for religious ones is to project your own views unto the bible. Tut tut.
DanZ
You're right that these verses don't advocate abortion, but the bible as a whole doesn't mention abortion. Those verses show us YHWH's attitude to children. In other words, he has no affinity for them.None of these verses indicate abortion at all.
The bible as a whole is very patriarchal. Children and the unborn are the property of the husband. When in Exodus where the causing of a miscarriage is mentioned, the punishment is a fine levied by the husband. If the husband doesn't choose to levy a fine, or if the women is not married, there is no punishment.
Given the other aspects I mentioned in my post, there is no biblical case against abortion. You are free, of course, to oppose abortion for secular reasons, but to pretend to do so for religious ones is to project your own views unto the bible. Tut tut.
DanZ
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Cathar1950
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Post #16
Good points people.
Christians that "live in the NT" forget that they base their beliefs on the OT. I hardly believe that the OT was superseded by the NT. After all Jesus was devoted to YHWH even if Christians have replace him with Jesus, Jesus would never have taken his place. But according to the NT and Christology they want to believe God killed his own son to make himself feel better about all the crummy humans that he elects for salvation.
It would seem that Christians would be happy to see children aborted that were the offspring of the women aborting them.
I think it shows the real issue of the anti-abortionist, they are anti womens rights. They are control freaks.
Christians that "live in the NT" forget that they base their beliefs on the OT. I hardly believe that the OT was superseded by the NT. After all Jesus was devoted to YHWH even if Christians have replace him with Jesus, Jesus would never have taken his place. But according to the NT and Christology they want to believe God killed his own son to make himself feel better about all the crummy humans that he elects for salvation.
It would seem that Christians would be happy to see children aborted that were the offspring of the women aborting them.
I think it shows the real issue of the anti-abortionist, they are anti womens rights. They are control freaks.
Post #17
I'm sorry, i did not know i was elaborating on "The old testament is obsolete" and "King James only". When I reread my post, I noticed that I was actually answering the original post as the poster probably intended it to be answered. Although I dislike having to argue to fellow Christians, I will do so if necessary.
Are you trying to be stupid? you know that wasn't ALL i had to say.
And I didn't say "King James Only" so don't put such a sentence of mine in Quotations if you don't know how to use them.
...which isn't KJV. 1.
2. I quoted from 3 different versions in hope of getting at least one right for you.
1. do you have proof of this?
2. I know, but all you had to say was which one you were quoting from before.
Why do you use the KJV? It's based on the Textus Receptus which was rushed into print in the 1600's to beat out the competition. Unfortunately for christian it was known to be full of errors even back then.
Thats what you want me to believe.
I haven't found any errors as of yet.
by per se what errors?
No it isn't. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Miscarriages are abortions too, sometimes called "spontaneous abortions".
It is EXACTLY the same thing.
Miscarriages i don't mind, but premeditated abortion i do not like.
And abortion means- to abort, which means you are in a situation (pregnancy) and you abort it (abort the pregnancy, which means kill the foetus, amoeba, baby).
It doesn't matter what you call it it still is Murder.
Funny thing is, it doesn't say that in the bible.
It was a Paradoxal statement.
And please provide the information about it condoning such a thing.
Because if it is not correct the Bible condones it.
No. What lunatic version are you using? I thought you said you use the KJV? "Well, what's the use?" What kind of language is that? The New Snot-Faced Punk Version?
I said nothing of the sort.
But still you haven't proved me wrong.
I also didn't say i ONLY will take referance to the NKV.
And i didn't mention what book i took that scripture out of.
Nothing touching on abortion is written in the New Testement. It's not prohibited.
And where did this information arise i wonder?
You're right that these verses don't advocate abortion, but the bible as a whole doesn't mention abortion. Those verses show us YHWH's attitude to children. In other words, he has no affinity for them.
The bible as a whole is very patriarchal. Children and the unborn are the property of the husband. When in Exodus where the causing of a miscarriage is mentioned, the punishment is a fine levied by the husband. If the husband doesn't choose to levy a fine, or if the women is not married, there is no punishment.
Given the other aspects I mentioned in my post, there is no biblical case against abortion. You are free, of course, to oppose abortion for secular reasons, but to pretend to do so for religious ones is to project your own views unto the bible. Tut tut.
I have already explained why...but we will see what Axeman has to say.
But the thing is...you are absolutely correct in your observations of the OT Juliod.
But according to the NT and Christology they want to believe God killed his own son to make himself feel better about all the crummy humans that he elects for salvation.
God did not kill his own son.
Jesus wanted to save the Crummy humans, because he LOVED them.
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Cathar1950
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Post #18
According to Pauline Christology God gave his son up to appease himself.
If you this Jesus is God then God kills himself. If God sacrificed his son then he killed him and it doesn't matter what weapon he used Jews, Judas, Romans, all humans, or just the elect. they are tools According to insane Christology. But I could be wrong. I dislike abortion but the issue is the womans rights over her reproduction. She is not property and where the bible says she is then it is wrong on moral grounds but, limited to it's times and culture. I mean are we not all limited by the same?
The bible is just not a good guide. Even in the Christian Testament and the misused Hebrew writings, they made decisions and judgement(such as celibacy) based on a belief that The Lord or the Kingdom of God was coming and there wasn't time. If you can't read that from Paul then your not reading Paul and it is obvious from the earliest traditions as they develope thru time reflected in the four gospel traditions(five if you want to include Thomas, I do). Christianity today in any of it's surviving forms is a creation of living with that disappointment and fact for 2000 years.
If you this Jesus is God then God kills himself. If God sacrificed his son then he killed him and it doesn't matter what weapon he used Jews, Judas, Romans, all humans, or just the elect. they are tools According to insane Christology. But I could be wrong. I dislike abortion but the issue is the womans rights over her reproduction. She is not property and where the bible says she is then it is wrong on moral grounds but, limited to it's times and culture. I mean are we not all limited by the same?
The bible is just not a good guide. Even in the Christian Testament and the misused Hebrew writings, they made decisions and judgement(such as celibacy) based on a belief that The Lord or the Kingdom of God was coming and there wasn't time. If you can't read that from Paul then your not reading Paul and it is obvious from the earliest traditions as they develope thru time reflected in the four gospel traditions(five if you want to include Thomas, I do). Christianity today in any of it's surviving forms is a creation of living with that disappointment and fact for 2000 years.
Post #20
I'm not sure whether it applies or not, but there is this...juliod wrote:You're right that these verses don't advocate abortion, but the bible as a whole doesn't mention abortion.
"And when he hath made her drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed." Num. 5:27-28
IF it is abortion that is referred to here then it's being done with YHWH's approval.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14
