When do we accept God's utter defeat?

[Willum]

According to the Bible, Satan defeated God ~10,000 years ago, instilling death, evil, and imperfection into the world.

God was unable to do anything about it, except of course, punish the victims. Which he has done according to the Bible many times, including a terracide, and the promise of one to come.

We hear songs and such about his triumph and victory, but let's face it; God was completely trounced by Satan, and the only thing we've heard from him is a good talk and excuses. The sending of his son, didn't really do anything measurable, except fanfare.

So assuming the Bible is true and all that, but taking it it in the light of history, and with a grain of salt, just how long before we acknowledge God lost at the starting line, and has been defeated at every turn, since?

What does this really say about the entity?

[Willum]

[Replying to MuffMaYne]

You do understand the difference between claims and facts, right?

Satan eats Gods lunch for the last 10,000 years.
God claims victory.

Other than CLAIMING I said something I didn't, do you have any counter-arguments? Or do you concede God has just talked a good game for the last 10,000 years?

[MuffMaYne]

[Replying to post 11 by Willum]

Theres nothing to concede to. IF the Bible is true then God has won.

IF you can say in a hypothetical that the Bible is true, but still kinda false, then this whole topic is a bust.

[Willum]

[Replying to MuffMaYne]

Nooooooo!
If the Bible is true, God was defeated, and only claimed victory.

In what possible world do you interpret the results of the what the Bible says, anything other than a humiliating defeat of the lord of the universe by an icky snake?

Tell me how?
I know what is claims. What it claims contradicts the facts it presents...

[ttruscott]

According to the Bible, Satan defeated God ~10,000 years ago, instilling death, evil, and imperfection into the world.

Oh, where? I read it as HIM allowing Satan to rebel so all those who chose to rebel would be exposed to prove their judgment was just.

God was unable to do anything about it, except of course, punish the victims.

Only the guilty are punished.
No innocent suffers or dies.
Everyone who became evil under punishment became so by their own choice to go against YHWH knowing what HE had to say about the natural and judgmental consequences.

Which he has done according to the Bible many times, including a terracide, and the promise of one to come.

What is your proof that the people who died in the terracide were victims of Satan and not the perpetrators of all evil?

[Willum]

[Replying to ttruscott]

All two people he allowed to rebel represent Satan's triumph over Gods creation. Satan triumphantly despoiled all of creation.

Only the guilty are punished, but everybody was punished! Tell that to all the women whom GOD increased the pains of their labor.

What is your proof that the people who died in the terracide were victims of Satan and not the perpetrators of all evil?

I don't understand the question.
They were the victims of Gods helplessness to prevent anything constructively, and only resort to destruction.

10,000 years of suffering,evil and sin, and God was unable to do anything about it, except punish the victims.

[ttruscott]

Satan eats Gods lunch for the last 10,000 years.
God claims victory.

What does eat God's lunch mean?? Are you referring to Satan acting all evil and disgusting? This is his victory?

A gangster on a shooting crime spree doesn't get to claim victory over the cops until they cannot touch him. Did Bonnie and Clyde have victory every time they robbed a bank? Some victory - very full of holes. Michael and Gabriel hurled Satan and his crew from heaven to the prison planet earth where they are held in the chains of a mind darkened by corruption and psychosis, the inevitable outcome of an addiction to evil.

As for GOD not being able to stop Satan while he is in prison earth, the good seed are forced to live with the evil tares for a reason. Satan is not GOD's problem, HIS own sinful elect are the problem. HE has promised never to judge the elect so when some chose to be sinful the judgement had to be put off (postponed) to accommodate them, not Satan who is condemned already. Matt 13:...“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

Since the bible hints that the elect became sinful over HIS call for the judgement of the eternally evil ones, some elect rebelled against that call out of love for some of the tares (idolatry). To prove to them that their love was misplaced on those completely unworthy of it, HE has us live with the reprobate to find out by our experience that they do not make good friends, family or neighbours and will never repent so the elect will give up their sins as unrighteous and learn holiness and so become heaven ready. That this process of sanctifying the sinful elect has taken over 10,000 years (and maybe another 10,000) measures their stubbornness, not GOD's inability nor Satan/s power to create victories. If GOD is being slow with our sins, it is out of love and pity for us to come to holiness perfectly, not rushing to fast for us.

The ripples from every evil act by a tare takes some elect another step closer to holiness and the tares another step closer to the the harvest. Far from being victories, every evil act is another nail in their coffin ensuring their inevitable end. When the last sinful elect accepts the absolute necessity of the judgement and commits to GOD in holiness, then the end comes. It is inevitable.

Justice postponed is not justice denied and no victory is found by being alive on death row - "They haven't killed me yet Mom! Still victorious!" Pshhhhh...

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

All two people he allowed to rebel represent Satan's triumph over Gods creation. Satan triumphantly despoiled all of creation.

Satan was cast into the earth by Michael and Gabriel with his mind clouded by delusion. Here he met other sinners who thought he was a good guy until he showed his true colors which was the whole point.

Satan did not cause the suffering on earth, Adam and Eve did as elect people who chose to idolize their evil friend. If every elect had chosen to stay true to their first free will decison to accept YHWH as their GOD (as the holy angels did), then there would have been no need to postpone the judgement and it would have been over in a flash at that second. By Eve idolizing the serpent, and Adam idolizing her, the judgement day had to be postponed and Satan got to strut his corrupt stink everywhere.

The Bible says clearly that sin entered by Adam, not Satan, and death with Adam, death to all who have sinned. Satan is nothing, a nobody, a paper tiger with scorch marks on his pelt. He is a pawn being used to prove that he himself must be damned by every victorious indulgence in evil.

[Willum]

[Replying to ttruscott]

It may surprise you to hear that I agree with all the FACTS you propose.
But i maintain the interpretation is flawed.

Your, and indeed God's spin, or interpretation of these facts is exactly that of someone who has been trounced by a bully and is making up excuse after excuse as to why he lost the fight.

It's always words and excuses, not action.

"I am not going fix Satan's damage because you did it to yourselves!" God says.

Are you referring to Satan acting all evil and disgusting? This is his victory?

Well God's foe is evil and disgusting, God responds by acting evil and disgusting. That is Satan's victory. Is there another interpretation? And since he is helpless to curtail the actions of his foe, what does this mean?

Did Bonnie and Clyde have victory every time they robbed a bank?

No, but then their banks didn't stay robbed for 10,000 years, with the Feds being unable to do anything about it.

Satan is not GOD's problem, HIS own sinful elect are the problem. HE has promised never to judge the elect so when some chose to be sinful the judgement had to be put off (postponed) to accommodate them, not Satan who is condemned already. Matt 13:...“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

Yeah, yeah, God has promised to do nothing, because Satan mopped him up, and poured him down the drain. He promised he wouldn't fix things for our own benefit? It's like a doctor saying I won't put a splint on a broken leg because Satan broke it...

You say that God loves us and gives us free will, but it seems to me, that Satan isn't half as bad as God - just by the facts,and it was Satan who gave us the knowledge to HAVE free will, isn't it?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 11 by Willum]

Theres nothing to concede to. IF the Bible is true then God has won.

Not so. If the Christian New Testament is true then God definitely lost to Satan since God no choice but to sacrifice his only begotten Son to Satan in order to pay the ransom Satan was demanding for the souls God had created.

So Jesus Christ would be proof of Satan's victory over God.

A God who has to sacrifice his only begotten Son in order to appease an evil demon is clearly a God who is desperate and has no other choice in the matter.

So Christianity tells us that God not only lost this battle, but he is also desperately incapable of dealing with Satan. Satan clearly has the upper hand being able to force God to sacrifice his only begotten Son as a ransom to Satan.

Edited to add:

Let's not forget that Jesus himself confirmed Satan's victory. Jesus proclaimed that only few will make it into the kingdom of God. This leaves the vast majority of souls that God had created to be won over to Satan.

So even Jesus confirms that Satan is the biggest winner here. Even with Jesus' act in extreme desperation of offering himself up as a ransom for Satan he was still only able to win back a FEW souls from Satan. Clearly Satan wins the vast majority of souls that this God had created.

So Satan is the clear winner, for even Jesus tells us so.

[Joe1950]

Reading the old Testament it seems to me that the god of the Jews (and subsequently the Christians and Muslims) is a very violent being. I am not sure how Satan figures into this, but the OT is full of accounts of god demanding some awful things (by modern standards) of his followers.
He has them commit genocide, including the slaughter of children. He allows rape and incest by some of his chosen people. He has his people swoop down and take the "land of milk and honey" from the very successful residents who were already living there. They are allowed to keep slaves. He destroys almost all the animal and human life in a flood. He gets angry and lashes out. (Today he might benefit from an anger management class).
He throws Adam and Eve out of paradise for the great offense of eating a piece of fruit he dangles in front of them (Entrapment?)
All in all, god does some rather perverse and violent things. What does Satan do?
I don't know why anyone would conclude that violence and hatred and anger are works of Satan. Seems to me that god has won the battle, if violence and brutality are kept on the scorecard.