Romans 13:1 and Nazi Germany

[Justin108]

Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."


A few comments/questions regarding Romans 13:1

1) My click-bait title. So I am to understand that every single government authority, no matter how corrupt or immoral, was established by God? Including Nazi Germany?

2) Would making people establish governments not violate free will? Was it not the free-will decisions of founding members to establish these parties?

3) Does Romans 13:1 not sound suspiciously like a means of using religion to control the masses? Does it not seem like Paul is using Christianity to pacify Christians into submission to the Roman government?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

We interpre the word "placed" to mean allowed.

Why?

Because logically, if God is omnipotent, anything that exists in any position is there because he allows it.


Critical thinking,

JW

There's a difference between allowing something and establishing something. "Allow" means God did not intervene to prevent it from happening, whereas "establish" means he actively made it happen.

If you run in front of a car, and I do not stop you, then I allow you to run in front of the car.

If I actively push you in front of a car, then I didn't simply "allow" it to happen, I actively made it happen. If we take Romans 13:1 by what it says, God actively made these governments happen.

Of course God "allowed" it to happen. It is logically part of "establishing" something to also "allow" it. But to establish something is more than just allowing it. So your "critical thinking" concluding that God allowed it does not mean he did not establish it. So let me rephrase my question... why do you believe God did not establish these governments when the text literally says he did?

[marco]

I will share the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of the verses.

We believe that when Paul says there is no authority "except from God" it means there exists no authority that He (God) is not presently allowing. Just as he is allowing wickedness he is allowing government. Some are good, some not so good and some are downright evil. But he allows them to exist. For now.

This doesn't address the question at all. God may of course allow evil regimes and have a day of reckoning. The question, however, is about Christ telling folk they have to follow evil commands since God has empowered the authorities. It is one thing to accept that evil exists, God willing, but quite another to believe that people should carry out the evil for evil regimes. I understand that JWs ignore Christ's command by disobeying civil authorities when they see fit to do so.

[JehovahsWitness]

If we take Romans 13:1 by what it says, God actively made these governments happen.

No, the verse doesn't say "god actively made these governments happen" that is your interpretation of the words. All the verse says is that the governments are in their placed or assigned position "by" God. Whether that is by his initiating and actively playing a role in their establishment or by his refraining from interceding and allowing the particulars to exercise their free will to take the place and establishe government, the verse does not say. It's the difference between somebody bodily picking you up and putting (placing) you in a chair and somebody allowing you to choose to take the place and approving of you being in the chair. Either way you are in the chair (the place, the established position) because of he who allows it.

All we know for sure is because of (by) God, they are in that position (or place), how much he did to get them there is interjection.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

The question, however, is about Christ telling folk they have to follow evil commands since God has empowered the authorities.

Where did Jesus say this?

I understand that JWs ignore Christ's command by disobeying civil authorities when they see fit to do so.

Which of Christ's commands are you referring to ? Reference scripture would be appreciated.

Thanks so much,

JW

[Justin108]

If we take Romans 13:1 by what it says, God actively made these governments happen.

No, the verse doesn't say "god actively made these governments happen" that is your interpretation of the words.

establish
stabl,stabl/
verb
1.
set up on a firm or permanent basis.

synonyms: set up, start, begin, get going, put in place, initiate, institute, form, found, create, bring into being, inaugurate, organize, lay the foundations of, build, construct, install, plant

The definition clearly indicates an active rather than a passive participation. God actively set up, started, began, put in place, built, etc. these governments. The definition of "establish" does not allow for a passive interpretation of "allow".

All the verse says is that the governments are in their placed or assigned position "by" God.

Yes. Actively. Not passively. He established these governments, he did not merely allow them to happen

Whether that is by his initiating and actively playing a role in their establishment or by his refraining from interceding and allowing the particulars to exercise their free will to take the place and establishe government, the verse does not say.

Yes it does. "Establish" clearly indicates an active role, as does "place" (as per the NWT translation of Romans 13:1).

"Placed" and "allowed to be placed" are not even remotely synonymous. "Allow" is passive. "Place" is active. ""Establish" is active. These words have never been used in a passive sense. They are by definition active

It's the difference between somebody bodily picking you up and putting (placing) you in a chair and somebody allowing you to choose to take the place and approving of you being in the chair.

Correct. And Romans 13:1 clearly states God placed the governments were placed in their relative positions by God. This is not my interpretation. This is literally what the text says, word for word. And it's the NWT translation that chooses the word "placed".

I cannot spell this out any clearer. Romans 13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

Either way you are in the chair (the place, the established position) because of he who allows it.

Ok let me spell this out for you... there are two scenarios here

a) God allows something
b) God allows something and establishes it

Under a), God stood back and let a) happen. Under b), God forcefully made b) happen. In both situations, God allowed it to happen, but in situation b) God allowed it and made it happen.

You seem to be saying situation a) occurred but not situation b). Please explain to me why you believe situation b) did not happen?

[JehovahsWitness]

I cannot spell this out any clearer.

Well then you might like considering the option that you stop trying.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placedin their relative positions by God.

Yes, I've read the verse thank you. I have told you what we understand the verse to mean and I think I understand what you believe. You believer the verse means God "placed" and "established" governments by his active participation in their formation, I believe he "placed and established" by his refraining from stopping their formation.

You have your view, so do I. We will just have to agree to disagree.

JW

[Justin108]

I cannot spell this out any clearer.

Well then you might like considering the option that you stop trying.

Romans 13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placedin their relative positions by God.

Yes, I've read the verse thank you. I have told you what we understand the verse to mean. So have you. We will just have to agree to disagree.

JW

Ok so apparently the meaning of words are now nothing but a matter of opinion. But hey... I can't force you to make a coherent argument.

[marco]

Where did Jesus say this?

Through his spokesperson Paul. Whoever resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

Or are we saying that Paul is wrong?

Which of Christ's commands are you referring to ? Reference scripture would be appreciated.

Thanks so much,

Perhaps I should have said that JWs disregard Scripture (which is supposed to reflect Christ's words). The above quote from Paul tells us that, when people refuse to do what the State tells them to do, they are damned. I don't see any way round this but I accept JWs acted without realising they were going against Scripture.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

We interpre the word "placed" to mean allowed.

Why?

Because logically, if God is omnipotent, anything that exists in any position is there because he allows it.


Critical thinking,

JW

Justin, by critical thinking he means rationalizing, otherwise they run into the problem that you point out in the OP.

To take the word "placed" (or established) and interpret it as "allowed" is nothing more than a changing on the meaning of the written word in order to avoid the problem it creates.

All this, or course, from a being that loves everyone unconditionally...

[OnceConvinced]

Ok so apparently the meaning of words are now nothing but a matter of opinion.

Indeed. It seems that words in the bible with clear meanings can be manipulated to mean anything anyone wants. The bible cannot just be taken at face value apparently.

I guess believers have no choice but to change the meaning of words when they are trying to make sense of the bible and when they so much want to believe that their God is holy, loving and just.

Remember the bible can't have contradictions, so what better way than to alter the meanings of words or to claim a word is actually a metaphor.

The verse, when taken at face value does definitely say that God is the one who established those governments. Of course back in those days, believers thought that God controlled everything including weather patterns, disease etc. It's not surprising they would believe it was God who established governments too.