A question for christians

thenormalyears · Post by **thenormalyears** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:11 pm

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:59 am

Cephus wrote:
Believer wrote:He is all knowing, but to speak of today, tomorrow, or even next year when referencing God, limits a limitless God. God knows all because He is everywhere, at every time. My belief is that God resides outside of space and time as we know it, which would be the only way for God to be in multiple locations across the universe at all possible moments.
If God knows all, then does he know as a fact what I will do tomorrow? Not what I *MIGHT* do, but what I absolutely, without fail, will do? If so, then how can I have free will? If not, then how can he be God?

Your ability to do something or not do it is not hindered by God's knowledge of the outcome. For instance you decide to purchase a house that is a bit out of your price range. God knows the outcome of that purchase, to you there are possibilities. You could purchase an expensive house and do well enough to afford it, or you could eventually go bankrupt and loose everything. To God the outcome is already known, but it's your decision to either purchase or walk away.

The same is true with your faith or lack of faith. God knows the outcome, of whether or not you will come to know Him. If the outcome is positive and you accept God, then that would be your choice. If the outcome is negative and you reject God that would also be your choice. The outcome is already known, but the choice is still up to you.

As humans we don't know the outcome of our decisions, we just have a decision and we choose based on our best judgement. God knows that not all will come to Him, and that grieves Him, but the decision was ultimatly ours to make.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:05 pm

Believer wrote:He is all knowing, but to speak of today, tomorrow, or even next year when referencing God, limits a limitless God. God knows all because He is everywhere, at every time. My belief is that God resides outside of space and time as we know it, which would be the only way for God to be in multiple locations across the universe at all possible moments.

Cephus wrote:If God knows all, then does he know as a fact what I will do tomorrow? Not what I *MIGHT* do, but what I absolutely, without fail, will do? If so, then how can I have free will? If not, then how can he be God?

Personally, I don't believe that you have free will. However, you don't know absolutely and without fail what you will do. It matters little whether someone else, be it a God or a computer with infinite computing power that knows your every atom. If you don't know what you are going to do, then you appear to have free choices to make.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:36 pm

what I'd like to know is, If god knows all, why wouldn't he prevent horrible things from happening? Like the hurricane in New Orleans. If he "loves" us so much why would he let stuff like that happen. According to Cristians he's our father, well if my father treated me like that I certainly wouldn't worship him.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:21 pm

seeker wrote:what I'd like to know is, If god knows all, why wouldn't he prevent horrible things from happening? Like the hurricane in New Orleans. If he "loves" us so much why would he let stuff like that happen. According to Cristians he's our father, well if my father treated me like that I certainly wouldn't worship him.

This is the classic Problem of Evil. Perhaps we should take that discussion there.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:01 pm

Your ability to do something or not do it is not hindered by God's knowledge of the outcome.

But of course it is. You view is suggesting only the illusion of free will since we are not privy to god's knowledge.

What will I have lunch tomorrow? Chicken or Beef, or something else? I do not know the answer to that. But if god is as you suggest, he already knows, without doubt or error, that I will have, say, chicken.

If he already knows this, then my choices are predetermined, and I have no free will to make choices, only the appearance of making choices. Like an actor appears to be making choices, but is only following a script. Unlike the actor, I can't see the script ahead-of-time, but I am still following it.

You can see I have no free will by considering the probabilities. If god knows I will have chicken tomorrow, then the chance that I will have beef is zero. The chance that I will have vegetables is zero. The chance that I will have Thai Armadillo is zero.

For there to be free will, there must be a period when choices are available that I could actually take. If god knows everything, then there is no such period.

DanZ

Easyrider · Post by **Easyrider** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:11 pm

juliod wrote: What will I have lunch tomorrow? Chicken or Beef, or something else? I do not know the answer to that. But if god is as you suggest, he already knows, without doubt or error, that I will have, say, chicken.

If he already knows this, then my choices are predetermined, and I have no free will to make choices, only the appearance of making choices.

No so. You chose the chicken without any help from anyone else, didn't you?

"For those He foreknew, He also predestined...." - Romans 8:29

Two things to consider:

1. God foreknew people (and their actions) first. He knew the things that people would choose of THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

2. After that, he allowed the world to go forward and unfold as we know it today.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:37 pm

You chose the chicken without any help from anyone else, didn't you?

What does that have to do with it? If god knows what I will do then my "choice" is an illusion. It isn't less of an illusion because I am unaware it is an illusion.

1. God foreknew people (and their actions) first. He knew the things that people would choose of THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

2. After that, he allowed the world to go forward and unfold as we know it today.

If I have free-will, that is, if I can actually choose either beef or chicken tomorrow, then it is not possible for to know the future, since I have not yet decided. If god does know my choice, then it is already made and I just following the predestination.

DanZ

Easyrider · Post by **Easyrider** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:43 pm

juliod wrote: If god knows what I will do then my "choice" is an illusion.

Sorry, that kind of logic escapes me. You still made the choice apart from God. He was just knowledgeable of what choice you made.

juliod wrote: If I have free-will, that is, if I can actually choose either beef or chicken tomorrow, then it is not possible for to know the future, since I have not yet decided.

Perhaps impossible for YOU to know, but God knows nevertheless.

juliod wrote: If god does know my choice, then it is already made and I just following the predestination.

Nope. You still make the choice apart from God. He was just knowledgeable of what choice you would make. Let that resonate for awhile.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:31 pm

Believer:

If God is always present, and God can be everywhere at once, then this description seems to imply that God sits outside of what we know of as time and space. The Bible teaches that God just is. In fact when questioned by Moses, about His name God replies "I AM"

I don’t remember how many times I have read or how many sources but the “I am” has been translated in what is thought to be a more correct translation. “I am that which I am”
“I will be that which I will be”
And Harold Bloom says, “I will be where I will be”
“Or I will be absent where I am absent.”
“Or even I will be that which I will become”

http://perso.orange.fr/jacques.laporte/Page6_En.htm

I personally did read many translations of verse 3:14 and Meschonnic took patently the same approach. He discerns three “traditions”. I would rather say three types of traditional errors.

The first is a tautology: a way to avoid answer. “I am that I am”, it’s the most serious error.
For the verse reveals the Name and it’s precisely the contrary that suggests this inept translation.
Dhorme, Segond, the so-called « Bible de Jérusalem », the King James Version and its so pure English (“resplendent Jacobean tongue” - Steiner), and the Vulgate chose this translation.

The second type of error has a Greek inspiration.

Seventy two Rabbis are said to have translated the Torah, separately, on orders of Ptolemy, two centuries before Christian era, without consulting and with the same result (Meguila 8b, 9).

They translated this verse precisely as meaning « ego eimi o on », the One who is, The Being.

Neo-Platonism writes Meschonnic which « opposes the Absolute Being to others Gods ». The French rabbinate does not escape: « Je suis l’Etre invariable, (I am the constant Being) for Zadoc Kahn.

A third less faulty tradition insists on the “un-accomplishment of the divine upcoming” (Meschonnic): Luther «Ich werde sein … » and Fleg : «Je serai qui je serai » (I will be who I will be).

Chouraqui translates but leaves Hebrew in place: «Elohîms dit à Moshè: « Èhiè ashèr èhiè ! Je serai qui je serai » (I will be who I will be).

Meschonnic himself translates אשר by « que », « je serai que je serai » (I will be what I will be).

Remain, to be complete, asymmetric translations: « Je suis qui je serai » (I am who I will be) for the TOB (Traduction Oecuménique de la Bible, not necessarily טוב!); present and future, whereas Hebrew imperfect refers to an unfinished act, something to return, a continuing promise (1).

I shall be what I shall be

(1) The TOB version is « redeeming » by a note at bottom of page, note that Meschonnic has seen but does not comment. The quotation to Isaiah 43:10 (ישעיה מג י) does justice to grammar: it gives the Hebrew form for present « ... I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.» (KJV):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_that_I_am

Theologians have many different explanations for the meaning behind this phrase. Many theologians explain that I am that I am is better translated to I be that I be. The ancient hebrew language does not have a past, present, or future tense. Instead, it has an Imperfective aspect and perfective aspect as indicators of time, with no actual determined time. Perfective aspect is something that is completed, or will be definitely completed. Imperfect is something that has not been completed, might be completed or might be completed in the future (there is no definite). Ehyeh is in the imperfective aspect, and can be understood as God saying that he is "in the process of being", a reference saying that his work is not yet complete, and may never be complete.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/thou ... y/freedom/

I AM
Exodus 3:6
Moreover he said, I AM the God of thy father, the God of Abraham….”
“Notice that the words I AM in Exodus 3:6, and the words I WILL in verse 12, are the same thing in Hebrew. I AM, I WILL, I WAS. He says that he is a God of Deliverance. (v8) The God of Exodus is the Delivering God. Keeping the Law makes you free. The same word for “etch”, as in God etched the words in the stone tablets, is the same word for Freedom. Therefore, the law makes you free.
“Carried over into the New Testament, Jesus teaches that if you continue in his word, you are his disciples, and the truth makes you FREE. The truth was etched on the tablets. Jehovah feels that laws and commandments are also freedom-giving. Not binding, but freeing. Another paradox, isn’t it?
“So Moses asks “WHAT IS HIS NAME?” This is what theologians have struggled with. What is the name of God in Genesis. Gen.2:4- LORD God - remember this: every time King James people wrote that, they took that from the Hebrew YHWY, which is pronounced “YAHWAY”, OR “JAWVEY” but we call it JEHOVAH. So the term “LORD God” in Hebrew is “Jehovah Elohim”. The Lord God, is Jehovah Elohim. “Why is that plural?” they ask. What is the relation between Jehovah and Elohim? Scholars have wondered.
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
“You read all the way through Exodus, and it appears that Moses never said. “I AM hath sent me,” to the Children of Israel. Not only that, but here is the confusing part; in Hebrew, guess what God says?
“EHYEH ASHE EHYEH” which is a form of the verb “to be.” The same as in verse 12. I will, I am, I was. Thus God could be saying to Moses, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE; or I AM WHAT I WILL BE or I WILL BE WHAT I AM or I AM THAT I AM or I WAS WHAT I AM or I WAS WHAT I WILL BE, ETC. All we get in Hebrew are the consonants. Now look at what God says in D&C 68:
6. Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I AM THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, THAT I WAS, THAT I AM, AND THAT I AM TO COME.
“What is all this, past, present and future? There is another possibility also; “It came to pass” or “to bring to pass” is another form of the same word in Hebrew. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Notice how the Book of Mormon ties in. There is something more divine in that form of words that finally ends up in English. The NAME of the God who is bringing “everything to pass” is included in that phrase. That is also found in the Old Testament because that phrase would indicate to a hebrew that the God of the Old Testament is the one that is causing everything to come to pass. He is the one in charge. Joseph Smith didn’t know any better in translating the Book of Mormon, so he left them all in there. Even the King James translators, who tried to keep the translation as pure as they could, had to take a lot of them out, because there were just too many. It is rooted in the divine.
“Let me tell you what I think was going on there. The Rabbis look at this and believe that Moses saw God in a way that had not happened before. Therefore, he never took that name and explained it to anyone. But I think what is happening to Moses on the Mount, with the Burning Bush, is the same thing that is happening with the brother of Jared and the hand of the Lord coming through the veil. My guess is that He shows him the wounds in his hands, in his side and in his feet, and says, I WILL BECOME WHAT I AM, and I AM WHAT I WILL BECOME. He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.
“Notice that “I was the Son of the Living God, I am the Son of God, and I will be the Son of God.” D&C 68:6. The Atonement is what? Infinite and eternal from everlasting to everlasting. It has to be worked out down here, but Christ is everything past, present and future. It is all there. What must Moses know? He knows who the Savior is. How does he show it? I WILL BECOME WHAT I AM, AND WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT I WILL BECOME.” — Robert J. Norman

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:02 pm

juliod wrote:But of course it is. You view is suggesting only the illusion of free will since we are not privy to god's knowledge.

For there to be free will, there must be a period when choices are available that I could actually take. If god knows everything, then there is no such period.

I can see where that would seem to be the case, but again, God's knowledge of your choices is not what makes your choices, you do.

A good example would be the parent-child relationship. We tell our children things that may seem to make no sense to them when we say it.

"Don't jump on the bed."
"Leave the stove alone."
"Don't do drugs."

We tell them, because we know the outcome of these things will cause them harm. God has given us warnings, and rules to live by. He has written these in our hearts, and given us a conscience to judge what is right and what is wrong. If we listen to our conscience then we fall within God's will, but it is when we stray, and impose our will on God's that we fail.

No one is innocent of disobeying their conscience, no one is innocent of disobeying God's will for humanity. So when things happen to us as a result of our disobedience, do we blame God or ourselves?

For instance if I tell my kids to stay away from drugs, because I know it will lead to addiction, and ultimately to sickness or death, who's choice is it to use drugs? Ultimately it's theirs. I can explain, my will to them, I can lay down my rules to them, and I can love them, but I cannot force my will on theirs.

Now God is different, because He can enforce His will on us, but does not, because that would take away our "choice". So while He gives us His rules, and shares His will with us, some will reject His will, and all will disobey His rules.

This does not mean God does not love us, as it does not mean that we do not love our children, but it does mean that we have been given a choice, much like our kids have been given a choice, to obey or disobey.