Why Earth?

[ElCodeMonkey]

If Christianity is to be believed, why the whole Earth ruse? God knows everything that is and would be. With such knowledge, he would know what direction and decisions we'd make and thus whether or not we're "worthy" of heaven (either by our beliefs, works, or whatever). With all power, he could make up our brains and spirits or whatever to immediately be whatever we would have become without any past whatsoever and he could even make us believe we had the past without actually enduring it if that was somehow useful. So then, what's the point of Earth? What does God possibly gain from it? What could God possibly gain in general? It couldn't possibly be for him since God can have everything at the snap of a finger--it'd have to be for us. So what do we gain if God can make us our end-result without it? I can't see a useful reason for Earth in a Christian world. And anything that we could gain from it is useless for the unborn or those with early deaths. So what's the point?

[ElCodeMonkey]

I don't think so. We would need the memory of having experienced them, and having the memory of having experienced them, we would naturally believe we had experienced them, even if we had not.

'The starting point' as you have expressed it, would have to place us in a different reality in order for that scenario to have the effect you are arguing.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Sounds like you said exactly what I said. "We would need the memory of having experienced them". That is a part of our brain arrangement. So God can simply make that memory a part of our brain arrangement (or equivalent spirit arrangement) which is exactly what I stated. I'm also not sure what you mean by your last statement. I'm arguing that God could have started us outright in an "alternate reality." One where we believe we already endured Earth, but are now in heaven. If he does that, a real Earth has no purpose. He can essentially fake it. The only argument I could see against doing this is that it would potentially be "dishonest" to make us believe what essentially amounts to a lie. But so much evil, pain, and suffering is avoided that way that it's more ethical than not. And since it's an accurate representation of what would have happened, it hardly even counts as a lie. Once we're in heaven, we'd never know the difference anyway. I know I'm experiencing Earth now, but in heaven, for all I know, it's a made up memory that I wrote all this and even asked. I'll no longer have any means of knowing if it were real or a fake memory.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by ElCodeMonkey]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Sounds like you said exactly what I said. "We would need the memory of having experienced them".
That is a part of our brain arrangement. So God can simply make that memory a part of our brain arrangement (or equivalent spirit arrangement) which is exactly what I stated.

Well I am not outright disagreeing with you, but am pointing out that your argument appears to move away from the original OP parameters as well as what I wrote in context.

I'm also not sure what you mean by your last statement. I'm arguing that God could have started us outright in an "alternate reality." One where we believe we already endured Earth, but are now in heaven. If he does that, a real Earth has no purpose. He can essentially fake it. The only argument I could see against doing this is that it would potentially be "dishonest" to make us believe what essentially amounts to a lie.

This is more what I was speaking to in my first post when I wrote;

"If anything, given those parameters, the Earth (thus the Universe) acts as a holding place where we can find the answers to those questions in an environment which provides the greatest opportunity for us to do so, on our own terms."

Any other way would be less that genuine. Given our circumstances we can ascertain that genuine is what we are looking for.

It might be that we are eternal beings who created this situation for ourselves for that purpose. That is another aspect which I find good to consider alongside the idea.

But so much evil, pain, and suffering is avoided that way that it's more ethical than not.

It may be that this is unavoidable but also impermanent and so, permissible, in relation to the genuine rather than the contrived.

And since it's an accurate representation of what would have happened, it hardly even counts as a lie.

But the question forced from such reasoning is;

Q: If we retain the memory of this, including the suffering etc, and believe that such actually happened, then how is that any different than actually having experienced suffering?

Those of us who have issues with suffering etc, will still retain those issues because 'memories'.

Once we're in heaven, we'd never know the difference anyway.

Heaven is one of the 'alternate realities' I mentioned when I wrote;

'The starting point' as you have expressed it, would have to place us in a different reality in order for that scenario to have the effect you are arguing

This veers away from the OP in that it is no longer a question of "Why Earth?" (This universe reality).

I know I'm experiencing Earth now, but in heaven, for all I know, it's a made up memory that I wrote all this and even asked. I'll no longer have any means of knowing if it were real or a fake memory.

Or another way of saying that.... You will have the memory but the contrast between this universe reality and that particular universe reality will make the memory of your Earth Experience less traumatic...and even 'besides the point'.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by ElCodeMonkey]

I dont believe God chose to see the choices of eveyone on earth would ultimately make. Nor do I believe earth is a testing ground for future heavenly life (after all the angels were created to live in heaven and the bible gives no indication they had to pass a test on earth first).

I believe the God created humans to live happily on earth forever. The earth was made for them not because he needed either but because it was his good pleasure to share life and love with humans*.


JW




*PLEASE NOTE I am not claiming to know the mind of God, I have come to these conclusions through my analysis of the bible which I believe to be the word of God.

[marco]

Not the way I'd say it but if I read you right, not too bad except the phrase "the non-elect who have no purpose except..." could be fine tuned as "the non-elect who have no purpose here except..." though they had an equal ability and opportunity to enter into YHWH's heavenly purpose for us all as everyone else until they chose to reject HIM.

It seems a great waste to employ a fine planet as a courtroom. It leaves us wondering what the billions of other bits and pieces are doing in space and why they're doing it. Man is ever obsessed by his own importance.

[ttruscott]

Not the way I'd say it but if I read you right, not too bad except the phrase "the non-elect who have no purpose except..." could be fine tuned as "the non-elect who have no purpose here except..." though they had an equal ability and opportunity to enter into YHWH's heavenly purpose for us all as everyone else until they chose to reject HIM.

Close enough for the topic at hand. So if this is the training grounds, what exactly are we learning and what does it look like when it's been learned? Are we learning to believe without seeing? Are we learning the real effects of sin? Are we learning life without God? What are the lessons that the training grounds is providing?

Heb 12:5-11 calls it being disciplined in righteousness, which I interpret to mean to conform all our decisions of our restored free will to HIS standards of faith so as to go on to learning to love.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. tells us we have to learn to be committed to the choice to always choose to serve in love and eschew the pleasures and profits of sin, ie, to in fact, repent.

2 Peter 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. suggest that we should learn to be in holy conduct (ie, dedicated in mind an body to GOD) and godliness, looking for and hastening (ie, to speed up) the day of judgement. How can our holiness speed up the day of judgement if NOT being holy is part of why the judgement day has been postponed ? as per Matt 13:28 An enemy did this, he replied. So the servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?

29 No, he said, if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The sinful good seed must learn to be holy enough that they are no longer liable to be rooted up in the judgement against all evil and are heaven ready...

This implies that the the judgement day will start when the last sinful elect person repents in full truth, in compliance with HIS call: 2 Corinthians 6:17 Therefore, "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." which as we are told is a matter of our 'heart' and then our lifestyle while we live among them.

[ttruscott]

Not the way I'd say it but if I read you right, not too bad except the phrase "the non-elect who have no purpose except..." could be fine tuned as "the non-elect who have no purpose here except..." though they had an equal ability and opportunity to enter into YHWH's heavenly purpose for us all as everyone else until they chose to reject HIM.

It seems a great waste to employ a fine planet as a courtroom. It leaves us wondering what the billions of other bits and pieces are doing in space and why they're doing it. Man is ever obsessed by his own importance.

I suggest Earth is more a Prison with a rehab centre within it than a courtroom but hey...

As for the rest of the universe, nothing will go wasted as I think it is the playground for all HIS holy people to explore the wonder of HIS imagination and we get to join that experience as part of our heavenly experience once we are freed from the insidious nature of evil.

[marco]

I suggest Earth is more a Prison with a rehab centre within it than a courtroom but hey...

As for the rest of the universe, nothing will go wasted as I think it is the playground for all HIS holy people to explore the wonder of HIS imagination and we get to join that experience as part of our heavenly experience once we are freed from the insidious nature of evil.

There is no harm in speculating; it gives life an enchantment. Einstein speculated that spacetime was curved and that light travelled at a constant speed. Fortunately his speculations were subject to proof.

I wonder where giraffes and zebras fit in to the prison theory.

[ttruscott]

I wonder where giraffes and zebras fit in to the prison theory.

I surmise they are indicative of HIS imaginative inventiveness...

[William]

[Replying to post 17 by marco]

There is no harm in speculating; it gives life an enchantment. Einstein speculated that spacetime was curved and that light travelled at a constant speed. Fortunately his speculations were subject to proof.

No surprises there given his subject matter.

I wonder where giraffes and zebras fit in to the prison theory.

My theory is that we designed our own forms and those of every other living thing, in a prior existence and they are also here to give us an understanding of the bestial while we - in this existence as humans - creep and crawl and claw our climb away from that...or not. That is the challenge we set for ourselves.

[William]

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

Man is ever obsessed by his own importance.

And why not? Without that we would have not discovered Shakespeare or left things on the moon...etc.

We are here all alone. Why would you expect things to be any different in regard to humans indulgence in self importance?

Without it, what chance would we have to become more than what our own forms expect of us, naturally speaking.

Indeed, if humans do not think of ourselves as important, we are far more likely to eventually annihilate one another.

Shall we become a GOD who think themselves collectively important, or shall we destroy the beast before it escapes into space?