Does religious experience lead to belief in God?

[Swami]

I believe that religious and mystical experiences can lead people to believe in God. I also believe that experience can lead someone to convert from one religion to another.

A good example that involves conversion from non-belief (atheism) to belief, is Dr. Eben Alexander.

A good example that involves conversion from one belief to another belief is the Apostle Paul.

I tend to make the point that many atheists have not experienced and that's the reason why they have no belief in a transcendent reality (a reality beyond the physical body and Universe). DrNoGod, a member on the science forum, disagrees with me. He has admitted that he's studied various religions but has not experienced any their gods. Maybe he think that he's justified in remaining an atheist until he experiences. But here's my rebuttal to that.

The experiences of transcendent reality in Western religions often occur spontaneously or if or when God decides. The apostle Paul had an OBE, but he did not know how it occurred, why it occurred, had no control over it. The Eastern religions are drastically different in that they provide a way to induce spiritual experiences via meditation. This is a voluntary process and anyone, including scientists can engage in it. Under the Eastern approach, you can induce the OBE state that the apostle Paul was in.

After bringing this up to DrNoGod his reasons seemed to look more like excuses because he declined to look into meditation for himself. From this I concluded that not only was he an atheist because of lack of experience, but also because he does not want to experience. A person in this case is not truly interested in seeking God.


Topics...
Is my belief correct when I say that experience leads to belief in God or some transcendent reality? Therefore, atheists disbelieve because they have not experienced?

If someone does not want to experience, then is it reasonable to say that they are not really interested in God?

[alexxcJRO]

Is my belief correct when I say that experience leads to belief in God or some transcendent reality? Therefore, atheists disbelieve because they have not experienced?

If someone does not want to experience, then is it reasonable to say that they are not really interested in God?[/b][/color]

Sir I was once a Christian(YEC protestant) and I felt the Holly Spirit/God, even spoke in tongues(just a bunch of gibberish(actual stream of speech was not organised and there was no existing relationship between units of speech and concepts), debunked by peer reviewed research carried out over many years by a highly qualified open-minded linguists) which of course I realized later was all just the product of my mind.

Yet here I am an atheist and am not “lacking experience�. Therefore render your questions meaningless.

[Swami]

To all skeptics, atheists, materialists:

Out of all of the posts I've read, I notice that the skeptics avoid my evidence. I specifically used Dr. Eben Alexander's story as qualitative evidence for my claim. I find it very difficult to believe that a well educated Harvard neurosurgeon can go from being a hardline materialist and atheist to being a spiritual person that questions materialism. Why is this good quality evidence? It is because Dr. Alexander is trained and has formal education on all that the tricks that the mind and brain can play on us. He understands consciousness from the materialist point of view. But yet, he changed from one experience.

This is why I believe experience works. I will respond keeping this point in mind.

People have described their ‘God experience’ as things that happen in their own head – perhaps hearing or feeling something. That suggests to me a psychological or emotional ‘experience’; that they may attribute to supernatural entities.

Some people are evidently more susceptible to having such experiences – or seeking out situations that encourage them (from meditation, to fervent prayer, to seances, to substances, to mental imbalance).

It is better to go on a case-by-case basis rather than

Therefore, atheists disbelieve because they have not experienced?

My position is that if any of the ‘gods’ wish to contact me, I am open to meeting with them – and they should know where to find me.

If someone does not want to experience, then is it reasonable to say that they are not really interested in God?

If ‘gods’ are not interested, neither am I.[/quote]

[Swami]

To all skeptics, atheists, materialists:

Out of all of the posts I've read, I notice that the skeptics avoid my evidence. I specifically used Dr. Eben Alexander's story as evidence. I find it very difficult to believe that a well educated Harvard neurosurgeon can go from being a hardline materialist and atheist to being a spiritual person that questions materialism.

Why is this good qualitative evidence?
It is because Dr. Alexander is trained and has formal education on all that the tricks that the mind and brain can play on us. He understands consciousness from the materialist point of view. But yet, he changed based on one experience. This is why I believe experience works. I will respond keeping this point in mind.

People have described their ‘God experience’ as things that happen in their own head – perhaps hearing or feeling something. That suggests to me a psychological or emotional ‘experience’; that they may attribute to supernatural entities.

Some people are evidently more susceptible to having such experiences – or seeking out situations that encourage them (from meditation, to fervent prayer, to seances, to substances, to mental imbalance).

It is better to go on a case-by-case basis rather than paint all believers with the same brush. Your statement would not apply to Dr. Eben Alexander since he's an expert of the mind and brain, he factored your point in, and found it didn't apply. Children also report NDEs.

Therefore, atheists disbelieve because they have not experienced?

My position is that if any of the ‘gods’ wish to contact me, I am open to meeting with them – and they should know where to find me.

If ‘gods’ are not interested, neither am I.

Your statements do not show a scientific approach. A person looking for scientific evidence should be willing to research and experiment. You don't even need a lab for this. You have the internet, yourself, you have various techniques you can explore yourself (meditation, prayer, etc).

[Swami]

If someone does not want to experience, then is it reasonable to say that they are not really interested in God?[/b][/color]

This suggests a false assumption. What is it, specifically, you assume this 'someone' does not want to experience?

IN this case, I was referring to meditation and using it to isolate consciousness from the mind. This leads to the experience of consciousness in its pure form - without any mental constructs or confines.

And what makes you conclude he or she does not WANT to experience it?

I offered meditation because it is a voluntary way to bring on these experiences. This means the process can be repeated, controlled, and experimented with. This is why I frequent the science forum advocating for meditation as an objective first-person approach. If you have a "choice" (it is 'voluntary') to bring on the experience, and you don't do it, then then it is on YOU when the experience doesn't happen.

I am certainly not actively TRYING to experience ghosts, or goblins; neither am I purposely trying to avoid such experience. I simply have no reason to assume gods or monsters exist. Most of my 70 years of experience can be neatly fitted into naturalism, to scientific explanation. Why would I look for supernatural or 'transcendent' explanations for natural phenomena?

Of course, I am not asking for anyone to assume. I use the word "experience" as a buzzword for mystical, transcendent, or religious experiences. These clearly are not compatible with the materialist worldview.

The 21st Century provides us with a powerful trend:
Of the tens of thousands of phenomena that were previously attributed to the intervention of gods, virtually all now have reasonable natural explanations. When scientific hypothesis has been proved, why look for ghosts and gods to explain?

Science is overrated because of technology. All of it is a distraction. Science has answered a lot of little interesting questions but it has not answered many of the big questions. How do you know the material Universe is real as opposed to being some manifestation of consciousness - just like a dream? Science has no answers to the nature and origin of consciousness, man, and the Universe.

Look at the big picture. Meditate on this.

[Swami]

Is my belief correct when I say that experience leads to belief in God or some transcendent reality? Therefore, atheists disbelieve because they have not experienced?

If someone does not want to experience, then is it reasonable to say that they are not really interested in God?[/b][/color]

Sir I was once a Christian(YEC protestant) and I felt the Holly Spirit/God, even spoke in tongues(just a bunch of gibberish(actual stream of speech was not organised and there was no existing relationship between units of speech and concepts), debunked by peer reviewed research carried out over many years by a highly qualified open-minded linguists) which of course I realized later was all just the product of my mind.

Yet here I am an atheist and am not “lacking experience�. Therefore render your questions meaningless.

A few years ago I found one good explanation which surprisingly came from a Christian site. The explanation is that a lot of Christians misunderstand the gift of speaking in tongues. Some understand it as speaking in any gibberish. The correct understanding of the gift is the ability to speak actual foreign languages that you did not learn.

Your study may have been evaluating those who have an incorrect understanding and practice of speaking in tongues.

[John Human]

There is a long discussed relationship between mental illness and religious or 'transcendent' experience.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... experience

I think the essence of that article is the following groundless double speculation:

In traditional societies people with psychosis or with high levels of paranormal and religious beliefs may project an aura of spirituality and religiosity and, as a result, may be conferred shamanic or shaman-like status.

_________________

[Zzyzx]

.

There is a long discussed relationship between mental illness and religious or 'transcendent' experience.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... experience

I think the essence of that article is the following groundless double speculation:

In traditional societies people with psychosis or with high levels of paranormal and religious beliefs may project an aura of spirituality and religiosity and, as a result, may be conferred shamanic or shaman-like status.

Perhaps this demonstrates that some people are realistic enough to avoid claiming absolute knowledge. Others seem inclined to claim absolute knowledge of 'gods' and various religious heroes after reading ancient texts and listening to modern preachers and televangelists.

[John Human]

.

There is a long discussed relationship between mental illness and religious or 'transcendent' experience.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... experience

I think the essence of that article is the following groundless double speculation:

In traditional societies people with psychosis or with high levels of paranormal and religious beliefs may project an aura of spirituality and religiosity and, as a result, may be conferred shamanic or shaman-like status.

Perhaps this demonstrates that some people are realistic enough to avoid claiming absolute knowledge. Others seem inclined to claim absolute knowledge of 'gods' and various religious heroes after reading ancient texts and listening to modern preachers and televangelists.

Yes, but... Danmark used that article, with its groundless double speculation, as the sole source for the dubious claim that "There is a long discussed relationship between mental illness and religious or 'transcendent' experience."

Perhaps there is better evidence out there for such a claim?
_________________

[Danmark]

Yes, but... Danmark used that article, with its groundless double speculation, as the sole source for the dubious claim that "There is a long discussed relationship between mental illness and religious or 'transcendent' experience."

Twice you have groundlessly claimed the article indulges in "groundless double speculation." You have done so with no explanation or evidence; hence you are the one engaging in "groundless double speculation." Apparently you are not conversant with the literature on the subject, some of it was referenced in the article, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... creativity.

Any student of anthropology or psycholgy is conversant with the FACT that there is a long association between certain mental illnesses and religious or transcendent experience.

One example among many [excerpt]:

"The prevalence of delusions and hallucinations with a religious content varies between cultures and over time. Some studies compared the
prevalence of religious delusions among different
populations [30–32]. Studies performed on inpatients with schizophrenia in Europe and compared
to others countries showed a rate of 21% of religious delusions in Germany versus 7% in Japan
[33] and 21% in Austria versus 6% in Pakistan "
https://smw.ch/resource/jf/journal/file ... 10322.pdf/

You can do your own internet search for this nonspeculative relationship between religion and mental illness.

Here's another in case you don't want to look for yourself:

"Religious beliefs and superstitions have an important impact on the psychopathology of psychiatric patients. Traditional Chinese religious beliefs and superstitions, such as fortune telling, Buddhist gods, Taoist gods, historical heroic gods and ancestor worship, have important influence on subjective psychotic experiences, in particular delusions and hallucinations. By means of empirical phenomenological case narration, the writer shows that all these traditional Chinese religious beliefs and superstitions tend to affect the contents, manifestation and meaningfulness of delusion and hallucination. They also serve as a means to replace clients' self-identity. They appear in the form of a supernatural force to resolve all difficulties, cause of troubles and misfortune, stress and coping mechanisms."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10 ... 3049002003

Want more?

[PDF] shamanism and schizophrenia: a state�specific approach to the “schizophrenia metaphor� of shamanic states
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[Swami]

[Replying to post 18 by Danmark]

Some of your articles mention 'anthropology'. I question on what grounds were experiences classified as delusion? Similar to psychiatrists, these researchers may resort to calling them delusions based on a priori reasons as opposed to actually evaluating the experiences for any validity. Most importantly, I want to know if these researchers engaged in the spiritual practices themselves.

Here is Dr. Eben Alexander in his own words:

The more I read of the “scientific� explanations of what NDEs are, the more I was shocked by their transparent flimsiness. And yet I also knew with chagrin that they were exactly the ones that the old “me� would have pointed to vaguely if someone had asked me to “explain� what an NDE is. But people who weren’t doctors couldn’t be expected to know this. If what I’d undergone had happened to someone—anyone—else, it would have been remarkable enough. But that it had happened to me . . . Well, saying that it had happened “for a reason� made me a little uneasy. There was enough of the old doctor in me to know how outlandish—how grandiose, in fact—that sounded. But when I added up the sheer unlikelihood of all the details—and especially when I considered how precisely perfect a disease E. coli meningitis was for taking my cortex down, and my rapid and complete recovery from almost certain destruction—I simply had to take seriously the possibility that it really and truly had happened for a reason. That only made me feel a greater sense of responsibility to tell my story right.

Proof of Heaven; pgs. 143-144

More from his book; pg. 149- 150

...I continued to wrestle with the fact that everything I had learned in four decades of study and work about the human brain, about the universe, and about what constitutes reality conflicted with what I’d experienced during those seven days in coma. When I fell into my coma, I was a secular doctor who had spent his entire career in some of the most prestigious research institutions in the world, trying to understand the connections between the human brain and consciousness. It wasn’t that I didn’t believe in consciousness. I was simply more aware than most people of the staggering mechanical unlikelihood that it existed independently—at all!
...
On the subatomic level, however, this universe of separate objects turns out to be a complete illusion. In the realm of the super-supersmall, every object in the physical universe is intimately connected with every other object. In fact, there are really no “objects� in the world at all, only vibrations of energy, and relationships.

Many would assume that when someone starts talking about "the Universe of objects as complete illusion" that this person would be a layman, just some religious person. But it isn't that Dr. Eben Alexander doesn't know science, the brain, and mind. He is well credentialed. The important insight is that despite knowing the materialistic worldview, the 'experience' led him to another view.