Wise words in the Bible

[Zzyzx]

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It is not uncommon to hear that the Bible contains universal and timeless wisdom or words to that effect.

My response:

The Bible is said to contain almost a million words -- perhaps 850,000(?). How many of them constitute 'universal and timeless wisdom'? What percentage? One percent would be 8,500. Are there that many?

A tenth of one percent would be 850 . . . (which I would not contest)

What are examples of biblical wisdom " quoting verbatim without padding or fluff.

Can we list one hundred?

Here's a start -- three words: "Love one another" (said in various forms, here without padding)

Another eleven words: "Do not take revenge on others or continue to hate them" (truncated to eliminate unnecessary verbiage)

Another eleven: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (Ethic of Reciprocity; common in many ideologies). Needs revision to be universal.

[Elijah John]

Oh yes, and often belief seems to come with its very own, DIY Faith Filter.

And then EVERYTHING one sees or hears from the so-called "Word of (the biblical version of) God" is wise and profound and filled with lovingkindness.

Only Fundamentalists take that approach, that everything in the Bible is the perfect Word of God. Many mainline believers take a more critical approach, and use a "Reason filter" for their faith.

[Mithrae]

And there are. Many good passages, too many to list them all. And those determined to dump on the Bible and the people who produced it will ignore them, no matter how many I or other believers enumerate.

Are there too many to list even two or three from the Tanakh? I'm trying to think of a few off the top of my head, and so far struggling.

First I thought about the introduction of God's name to 'Moses' and the prohibition against graven images, from which we might extract the worthy idea that the real name and nature of God is ultimately unknowable. But as it's actually written, we find authors who viewed God's real nature as jealous and cruelly vindictive against children for parents' disobedience (Exodus 20:4-6).

Then I thought about the injunctions to give justice and show compassion towards resident foreigners, widows, orphans and the poor; even in enlightened 21st century democracies, sometimes the loudest voices seem to be outright opposing those noble ideals. But again, this was written by people whose god would kill people for non-lethal mistreatment of widows and orphans, again punishing the children for the father's disobedience by making them orphans. Completely forbidding interest on loans to the poor also arguably disincentivizes helping them out; a nice thought, but hardly universal wisdom (Exodus 22:21-27).

In desperation I turned finally to Jeremiah's promise of a 'new covenant,' an egalitarian one written on hearts and minds rather in the pages penned by iron age social engineers. But even that - lovely and potentially progressive though the idea may be - is not a universal one, written and promised specifically for Israel alone (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

I guess there's "Don't kill"? Granted the authors then go on to list dozens of orders to kill, but maybe we can ignore all of that and pretend that rather than being pretty basic and obvious common sense, "don't kill," "don't steal" and so on are a universal and timeless source of inspiration. Or maybe there's some nice stuff in the Psalms, if we can find any without too much obseqious grovelling before the author's idea of God or promises of said deity destroying the author's enemies?

Genuinely curious if there actually are any passages there which are simply good and wise, clearly and universally, without needing a bunch of caveats or reinterpretation.

[Divine Insight]

Oh yes, and often belief seems to come with its very own, DIY Faith Filter.

And then EVERYTHING one sees or hears from the so-called "Word of (the biblical version of) God" is wise and profound and filled with lovingkindness.

Only Fundamentalists take that approach, that everything in the Bible is the perfect Word of God. Many mainline believers take a more critical approach, and use a "Reason filter" for their faith.

If we have to use a "Reason Filter" then what do we need the Bible for?

We should be able to reason things out for ourselves with relying on ancient stories of a self-confessed jealous God who takes out vengeance on those who displease him. And supposedly on their descendants as well. A God who's vengeance isn't even limited to just the generation he took offense to.

[alexxcJRO]

I think you know, or should know that the disturbing passages you list are not what I mean when I say "timeless and universal wisdom". There are many other passages, too numerous to quote which are far more benign and inspirational.

Yes, just because you can cite many atrocious passages in the "Good Book" does not mean the Bible is useless as a source of timeless and universal wisdom. As I say in my signature area, "the Bible is redeemed by it's good parts". And there are many.

There are many other passages which continue to inspire and uplift. Do you honestly think you have provided a fair and balanced representation of the Bible in the passages you have cherry picked to construct your straw man?

I didnt said you meant this.

Please dont do the thing you are complaining about.

My post was addressing those that think Bible in the entirely is full of wisdom.

My post was a satirical response to wake this kind of people up.

My father just the other day was defending corporeal punishment on children as a wise thing because it was in the Bible.

What is remarkable is not that there are many awful passages from primitive people in the Bible. No, what is remarkable is that there are any good, beautiful, uplifting and edifying passages at all, given the primitive and barbaric times from which they emerge.

And there are. Many good passages, too many to list them all. And those determined to dump on the Bible and the people who produced it will ignore them, no matter how many I or other believers enumerate.

I am sure there is.
Things is I often more time I see bad people justifying evil/malevolence(corporeal punishment on children, defending/justifying intolerance towards gays/non-believers/other religions, defending/justifying intolerance toward people working on Sundays, defending/justifying intolerance towards same-sex marriage, defending/justifying intolerance towards people who drink/smoke/have premarital sex/even wearing jewelry or wearing sexy cloths, indoctrinating children to be intolerant as they, induce fear of God and Hell with scary stories of burning forever in an everlasting fire, defending slavery, rape and genocide/mass murder (almost all this things happen to me on a daily basis from hundreds of people all around me)) with the Bible with the bad parts then people really following the good parts.
I have yet to met a real atheist/agnostic or a tolerant/liberal Christians(who really follows mostly the good parts) in real life.

In my country for example people are like 90 % Christians(overwhelmingly fundamentalists-YEC).

Christians like you, historia and tam for example are super rare.

And I would ask you, and Z an other skeptics and detractors, where do you get your inspiration? And does that source make you better people?

I often find more inspiration from fictional characters like: Yoda, Goku, Superman, Gandalf, Bran Stark(Three-Eyed Raven).
I dont see any of these characters promoting abhorrent notions like hell(eternal conscious torment) like Jesus did.

[bjs]

Genuinely curious if there actually are any passages there which are simply good and wise, clearly and universally, without needing a bunch of caveats or reinterpretation.

This does bring up an interesting issue. Are there any was words " feel free to quote any source or make up your own " that are literally universal and have absolutely no caveats?

Love your neighbor as yourself (Deuteronomy 6:5) seems like the best shot, but even then I can imagine circumstances where one neighbor is treating another neighbor cruelly and it is impossible for me to treat both of them the way that I would want to be treated.

Perhaps some ethical teachers, Christian and other-wise, had a point when they said that there are good underlying principles that must be applied in various cultures and circumstances, and so strictly following a set of rules will never work. (I am reminded of Jesus debates with the Pharisees on this account.)

So are there any words that are simply good and wise, clearly and universally, without needing a bunch of caveats or reinterpretation?

[Divine Insight]

And I would ask you, and Z an other skeptics and detractors, where do you get your inspiration? And does that source make you better people?

I have never felt that I need any help becoming a "better person". At least not in any moral sense. I've never had a desire to do things that are typically thought of as immoral to begin with.

I'll leave the obsession with morality for the theists to argue with each other over.

As far as simply improving my skills and capabilities I usually have people I look up to in that regard. For example Isaac Newton was perhaps my greatest childhood inspiration. After that I'd have to say Albert Einstein. And I could name countless other scientists as well.

On more down-to-earth issues I'm inspired by other people who do great things. For example, currently I'm a member of a machinists forum, a robotics forum, and a musicians forum. And I often gain inspiration from people on those forums.

I don't need inspiration from anyone to become a "Good Person". I already am a good person. In fact, speaking of the Bible I'd put my moral values up against the moral values of Jesus any day. Even back when I was a Christian, I never saw Jesus as teaching morally superior ideas from what I already had. To the contrary, I saw Jesus as someone who was actually trying to teach people the same sense of morality that I already had.

So I'm certainly not going to be inspired by Jesus. As far as I can see he basically had the same moral compass that I already have. About the only difference is that Jesus supposedly believed in the God of the Hebrews. So Jesus tended to try to work within the confines of that religion. And as far as I can see Jesus actually disapproved of much of what had been attributed to Yahweh. I realize that Matthew claims that Jesus supported every jot and tittle of the Old Testament law. But actually Matthew is the only place we here this, and nowhere else do the rumors of Jesus indicate that he actually supported those immoral laws. In fact, there are many places where Jesus actually outright rebukes them. Including the refusal to stone sinners to death.

Yep, as far as I can see Jesus was a lot like me. So it's not likely that I'll get any inspiration from him. It would be pretty hard to get inspiration from someone who thinks just like I already think. If I wanted to follow Jesus all I'd need to do is follow myself.

[Mithrae]

Genuinely curious if there actually are any passages there which are simply good and wise, clearly and universally, without needing a bunch of caveats or reinterpretation.

This does bring up an interesting issue. Are there any was words " feel free to quote any source or make up your own " that are literally universal and have absolutely no caveats?

Love your neighbor as yourself (Deuteronomy 6:5) seems like the best shot, but even then I can imagine circumstances where one neighbor is treating another neighbor cruelly and it is impossible for me to treat both of them the way that I would want to be treated.

• I am the Lord. You shall not render an unjust judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great: with justice you shall judge your neighbor. You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not profit by the blood of your neighbor: I am the Lord. You shall not hate in your heart anyone of your kin; you shall reprove your neighbor, or you will incur guilt yourself. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials. ~ Leviticus 19:14-19

Is that a passage of clear and universal wisdom? For starters it's highly authoritarian; no appeals to empathy or enlightened self-interest, only 'do this because I am your deity.'

More importantly it's explicitly tribalist, referring only to how the listeners should treat their own kin, their own people, their own neighbours: The obscure rules about seeding, husbandry and garments perhaps intended (the best explanation I've ever heard/guessed at least) to symbolically emphasize even in their daily life the Israelites' separateness, the non-intermingling between them and other groups. Maybe that was important for them to preserve their own unique culture, both their separateness from out-groups and the intended intense cohesion within their group, but three thousand years later it obviously seems quite parochial.


Extracting half a line from the passage and contradicting its authors' intentions, Jesus (following others such as Hillel the Elder) used his story of the good Samaritan to promote the idea of universal love for our 'neighbours'. Besides the fact that he put 'love' for an invisible deity ahead of love for our fellow man - leaving room for rationalizing any number of atrocities against men in the name of God - I don't see any obvious problem with Jesus' reappropriation of a phrase from an ancient tribal instruction manual, but that can't really be credited as wisdom of the Tanakh itself.

It may be that some among the ancient Hebrews - like some among the ancient Greeks or Indians or probably every other civilization - left a shaky but serviceable foundation, a necessary start for later generations to build on. But the very fact that later generations of Jews, Hindus and so on have written and said better and wiser things than anything in their earlier texts clearly shows that the earlier stuff is not really timeless, any more than it is universal. I'm certainly an advocate of respecting whatever earlier generations accomplished with the resources at their disposal, and learning a few things both about them and perhaps therefore about ourselves if we'd been born in a different era or ever find ourselves deprived of our sophisticated societies and technology: So yes, there's certainly some good stuff in the New Testament and even in the Tanakh; I'm just not sure there's anything which hasn't been significantly improved on in the millennia since or, particularly from the Tanakh, any passages which aren't clearly marked by the authors' circumstances and shortcomings even when their basic intention was promising.

[SallyF]

Oh yes, and often belief seems to come with its very own, DIY Faith Filter.

And then EVERYTHING one sees or hears from the so-called "Word of (the biblical version of) God" is wise and profound and filled with lovingkindness.

Only Fundamentalists take that approach, that everything in the Bible is the perfect Word of God. Many mainline believers take a more critical approach, and use a "Reason filter" for their faith.

Which allows quasi-atheists to pick and choose what to believe and what to sweep under the altar, and still conveniently pass themselves off as "Christians".

Personally, I find such an approach dishonest.

The so-called "scriptures" are either the "Word of God" or they are not.

Much-maligned "fundamentalists" may be downright wrong and deluded and naive for truly believing they are dealing with the "Word of God".

But they are far more honest than "Christians" who know fine well they are NOT dealing with the "Word of God".

The approach of "mainline believers" reinforces my contention that Christianity has been a fraud from the beginning and continues to be so.

[Zzyzx]

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And there are. Many good passages, too many to list them all. And those determined to dump on the Bible and the people who produced it will ignore them, no matter how many I or other believers enumerate.

Creative dodge.

And I would ask you, and Z an other skeptics and detractors, where do you get your inspiration?

Inspiration for WHAT?

Life experience, real life, has taught (or inspired) me to live fully and honorably. I need no book of stories and sayings to provide inspiration.

Perhaps others feel a need for such inspiration to be adequate " and perhaps assume that others have similar needs (a form of projection).

And does that source make you better people?

Better people? Better than what / who?

So "treat others as you would have them treat you" are not words of wisdom?

The Ethic of Reciprocity (found in many ideologies / religious worldwide) is not unique to Christianity, and is not without flaws. Say it to a masochist who wants to receive pain.

If they are, then how do you account for their presence from a book inspired by such an "evil" entity?

Can an evil person (or imaginary entity) occasionally say or do something wise or good?

The Golden Rule is simply the essence of what Jesus calls the "Law and the Prophets". Distilled, boiled down from the many, many words of Wisdom contained in the Bible.

There seems to be little correlation between Jewish law and prophets vs. what gospel writers attributed to Jesus.

[Mithrae]

Which allows quasi-atheists to pick and choose what to believe and what to sweep under the altar, and still conveniently pass themselves off as "Christians".

Personally, I find such an approach dishonest.

The so-called "scriptures" are either the "Word of God" or they are not.

Much-maligned "fundamentalists" may be downright wrong and deluded and naive for truly believing they are dealing with the "Word of God".

But they are far more honest than "Christians" who know fine well they are NOT dealing with the "Word of God".

The approach of "mainline believers" reinforces my contention that Christianity has been a fraud from the beginning and continues to be so.

Since when did affirming an irrational dogma become a defining characteristic of belonging to the Christian community, or the Jewish community, or Hindu community? Even if were a biblical dogma - which it is not (as I noted in post #12 even the Tanakh explicitly speaks of a 'new covenant' written in hearts and minds rather than stone or paper; whereas the New Testament presciently predicted everyone would forget 'Word of God' as the name of Jesus) - you would be making a circular argument that Christians ought to accept some dogma about the bible, because the bible says so.