Did Christ crave worship?

[marco]

Jesus comes to us beautifully gift wrapped, especially at Christmas. His biographers have written wonderful eulogies to the extent that many think he had to be a god.


He told his friends not to say anything about his miracles or his identity. (Matthew 8, Matthew9 and Matthew 16) But of course his purpose was to display his divine gift so he wanted publicity.

When he asked: "What are people saying about me?" was he just seeking flattery?

And when he demanded that people love him more than their own children was he encouraging idolatry, like pop stars today?


Did Jesus crave worship?

[bjs]

[Replying to marco]

Asking about the unrecorded motivations of a man from 2,000 years ago seems futile.

If the documents are accurate then people did worship Jesus (Luke 24:52; Matthew 14:33), and he did not dissuade them from doing so the way that Paul and Barnabas did (Acts 14:15).

That is as close as we can come knowing what Jesus desired on this topic.

[marco]

The point I am making is that humans seem to naturally praise a person or object when they realise it is good. Worship is a form of praise. Worship for me is the natural praise I have for my understanding of God.

Humans offer praise for many reasons and often give it to the wrong person. You are turning the OP round to consider why people should honour Jesus. I've no doubt some of his sayings deserve some praise. The question asked is: Did Jesus earnestly seek praise from people? We are asking about Christ's motivation. Obviously we have to examine his words and deeds to come to a conclusion.

If God is God and also craves worship don't you think He would have forced you to worship Him?

We are talking about Jesus. If he were God then many other things might have occurred, but he presented himself as a man and as a man we can judge his motivation. Whether a god would compel people to lavish praise on him is hard to know but if the Muslim God, Allah, is anything to go by he demanded an enormous amount of praise daily and Muhammad had to bargain with him to get the number reduced to five times daily. I think this tells us more about Muhammad's imagination than it does about divinities.

[marco]

[Replying to marco]

Asking about the unrecorded motivations of a man from 2,000 years ago seems futile.

Does it? Roman schoolboys were often set the question of considering why Hannibal did not attack Rome after Cannae. It is instructive to attempt to penetrate the minds of people in history in order to explain actions. It is speculated that Caesar did not rise, as was the custom, to greet the consuls because he had an embarrassing stomach ailment. When David on meeting Johnathan "exceeded" - (passed fluid) - it is often supposed he reacted sexually to his friend. (Yes I know other readings). We do not know what was in David's mind but it is interesting to speculate, especially since he later said that his love for Jonathan was better than that for women. If, as you suggest, it is futile to ask questions about what motivated famous people then it is the death of discussion. Facts of course are useful, but opinions shape debate.

If the documents are accurate then people did worship Jesus (Luke 24:52; Matthew 14:33), and he did not dissuade them from doing so the way that Paul and Barnabas did (Acts 14:15).

Yes, Paul and Barnabas reacted hysterically by tearing their clothes. Jesus allowed the worship which suggests he was flattered. He was full of praise when Peter said:
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." He suggested the information had come from heaven.

It is not quite as futile as you might think to seek Christ's motivation. He is allowed by his biographers to reveal himself.

[1213]

...And when he demanded that people love him more than their own children ...

Please show the scripture where he demands that?

[1213]

...
Seeking worship may not be the same as craving it, but it's close. I'm not sure however if your statement refers to God the Father or Jesus.
...

In this case I think it is also good to notice these:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Pure religion [religious worship] and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27

"Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matt. 25:45-46

In Bible, God’s will is that we love others as ourselves. And if we love God, we do so. I don’t think that is selfish or bad.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Matt. 22:39

I think it is weird how so many people are against that.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 12 by marco]

Oh if we arent debating Christianity - no worries. I'm not defending other religions.

It's your thread of course and I do wonder with you what the other self described Christians (who don't think Jesus is God) on this site think of a man clearly taking God's glory in the Bible.

It's a fault in their theology that seems obvious from the outside. Please continue.

[marco]

...And when he demanded that people love him more than their own children ...

Please show the scripture where he demands that?

Luke 14: 26 is rendered:

“Anyone who wants to be my follower must love me far more than he does his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—yes, more than his own life—otherwise he cannot be my disciple."


And since you don't "interpret" but just take the words as they are written, there is no problem, 1213.

[marco]

[Replying to post 12 by marco]

Oh if we aren't debating Christianity - no worries. I'm not defending other religions.

That makes two of us. I mentioned Allah to show how divinities can demand excessive adulation. Most folk take Allah as synonymous with Yahweh - I don't see any difference myself.

But the OP is not about them, but about the man, Jesus Christ, demanding worship.

It's your thread of course and I do wonder with you what the other self described Christians (who don't think Jesus is God) on this site think of a man clearly taking God's glory in the Bible.

It's a fault in their theology that seems obvious from the outside. Please continue.

Thanks.

Well the old question of whether some Nazarene on the outskirts of Imperial Rome was a god will always attract attention. I have no problem in dismissing the claims to deity of Caligula or Augustus and by the same process one can dismiss claims made by followers of Jesus for Jesus. I think he craved devotion, he wanted to be loved excessively but I think he simply saw himself as highly favoured, not as a usurper of Yahweh. Nothing he said makes that blasphemous claim.

If we find here that he did indeed ask for adoration, like pop idols today, the question is answered. Whether he deserved it is another matter. Do you suppose he did?

[marco]

In this case I think it is also good to notice these:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Then why was Jesus so irate about the salesmen in the Temple? If it wasn't his Father's dwelling place, did he need a whip?

Pure religion [religious worship] and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27

This is silly advice. "Excuse me, are you fatherless? Can I come in to comfort you?"
or worse:
"I hear you are now a widow. Would you like some comfort?"

'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'[/i] Matt. 22:39

I think it is weird how so many people are against that.

Perhaps when it comes from Matthew it is easily ignored, Matthew being divorced from reality. The advice is extreme and impossible to put into practice. But we are asking about love for Jesus, not for the man along the road.

[William]

[Replying to post 19 ]

marco: Then why was Jesus so irate about the salesmen in the Temple? If it wasn't his Father's dwelling place, did he need a whip?

William: The likeliest answer is that this was added to the story as it became apparent by those in control that it was necessary to connect 'The Father" with "YHVH".
Perhaps for no other reason that to feed contention.