Denominations

[Menotu]

Under the Christian umbrella, there are many denominations believing in the same god. But they tend to have differing ways to get the same end result.

An outsider comes along and looking in with no bias (having never heard of such a concept), he says "Wait: if you believe in the same god, and want the same thing, why are you arguing among each other? Shouldn't the same god have told you all the same thing? Why all the different denominations?"

Once the outsider reads the four gospels, they will understand a bit more:
"Wait: your god talked to a few different guys over different years and told them the same story, but different?"
You may say "Well, it was interpreted differently by these different people."
The outsider would then say " OK, but this god...he didn't change his story yes? So why didn't he tell each of these people the same thing in a manner in which they would write the same thing? Even if it was a different writing style, the jest of the story would remain true, right?"

So the outsider already has his eyebrow raised in suspicion.

Then he sees all the different denomination and their specific means to the same end (once saved always saved, Purgatory, Hell, asking for constant forgiveness, Jesus reappearing in the Americas and South Africa, people ascending, Adam/Eve/Ruth, etc) and he asks you the following set of questions:

"How can you accept these differences from a god that, you indicated, hasn't changed?
Why do you have to have faith in all this confusion and, at times, contradiction, in order to have something to believe in?
Why can't your god provide to you - all of you - the same story that's believable, especially considering he can do anything he wants?
Why does your god allow all these denominations?"

Is there a definite answer other than "'cause God says" or the like?
Is there something that we can point to that says "My thinking is right because...."?
Or is it all a personal belief system?
And if that's the case, why all the concern over what others believe in (or not), how they live their lives and what they do in their families?

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 8 by Tcg]

Okay Ive changed my list from "and" to "or" to avoid indication of judgement. The point being all that exist do so because in my opinion God allows it not necessarily because he approves it.

If a God existed, and if that God were omnipotent, there would be absolutely no difference between allowing and approving. If one accepts the existence of such a God, one must accept that God not only approves it, but indeed causes it.


Tcg

[marco]

Why does your god allow all these denominations?"

For the same reason he allows atheists, pedophiles or wicked people ...namely because for now it Is not his time to take action for or against any such groups.

I'm sure you didn't intend this list to be all inclusive but you could have added Jehovah's Witnesses.



There might be, but that wouldn't make it correct. Logically if there is an omnipotent God anything that exists does so because He allows it. That is a logical inevitablity given the premise.[/quote]

And there lies the big question of why God, as a caring father, allows horrors to befall his children. Perhaps there's something wrong in the premise? I'm surprised we don't have the usual list of explanations supplied by JW theory.

[ttruscott]

The fact that there are suggests personal beliefs are the deciding factor, not some divinely-run enterprise.

You sum it up pretty well except you miss that I think life is all a divinely-run enterprise from GOD.

We chose by our free will to be sinners. When HE planted us as sinners into the world of mankind HE had already predestined the future state of our lives after our deaths and HE gave us predestined lives perfectly suited for the redemption of HIS elect, the one's under the promise. But HE also had to postpone the judgement of the eternally evil ones who chose to be HIS enemies in the parable of the tares:
Matt 13:27 The owners servants came to him and said, Sir, didnt you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from? 28 An enemy did this, he replied. So the servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up? [bring the judgement upon them; cleans the earth of their evil?]

29 NO, he said, [do not bring the judgement to them] if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. [though the good seed is just as evil as the tares, they are under my promise to never condemn them]

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The harvest is the time of the maturity of the seed. The only maturity that saves anyone from the liability to judgement is a mature holiness and separation from the evil ones.

At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn. The judgement will come but only AFTER the sinful but good seed is fully sanctified and in one accord with GOD on every matter, especially the judgement. The judgement will come when the last sinful elect finally fulfills the one prevailing and enduring command in ALL the bible: to come out from among them and to touch not their uncleanness!

I also suggest that having to live with these weeds is the greater part of our impulse to become holy and without experiencing their evil firsthand we would never give up our rebellion to the judgement, our refusing to come out from among them. Therefore it is no great leap to see that our being scattered amongst the tares is part of HIS plan for us and very efficacious for our sanctification.

That HE allows all manner of lie and misdirection within those who publicly worship HIM is part of this life to open our eyes to the ubiquity of evil. It is obvious that our sinfulness is the only reason Satan and his can exist here so keeping us sinful in heart and keeping us enthralled by false versions of GOD is his new job to preserve his life here with us. That no one can find their way thru all this evil misdirection forces HIS elect to attend to HIM only, not their teachers or pastors or spouses: Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding of what you have been taught is the truth of the bible. And contrary to the OP that HE is not careful with us, I suggest this trust is fulfilled in each of HIS elect no matter where they reside or who they live with...we have all believed in one blasphemy or another about HIM and the cleansing takes time.

Every sinful elect must confront and turn from every sin within himself, in his family and his church according to the leading of GOD in his life until he is holy and heaven ready. How could we have this necessary experience if GOD kept us from this experience, isolated from the machinations of Satan within our communities, churches and homes?? The plan you imply is better would keep us in our sins forever, which benefits only Satan!

[ttruscott]

* A gate is usually used to select access and/or to keep out the undesirable

An effective gate would keep pedophiles out. Apparently no such gate is used by Jehovah's Witnesses who have been known to protect the pedophiles in their ranks.

The pending holiness of the sinful elect depends upon them LIVING with the evil they refused to condemn until their eyes are opened to the need for holiness and the cleansing found only in the judgement. Some elect did not trust HIS claim those who rejected HIM as their GOD would cause unspeakable evil if they were not judged. By rejecting the judgement these elect became just as evil themselves and by living in the actual world of evil in all its corruption, finally will come to trust HIM and accept the necessity of the damnation.

Therefore the gate that keeps evil from interacting with HIS holy family is the gate that shuts behind Satan et al when they are banished to the outer darkness. This gate shutting up hell will keep all the pedophiles out of HIS heaven and is absolutely necessary to keep evil from spreading thru all HIS creation which would create the need for eternal battle.

[1213]

.
Since 'Christianity' can mean whatever an individual chooses (there is on consensus in Christendom), they can make up their own version and claim to be Christian.
...

I agree that the word Christian has come almost meaningless. Originally Christian meant a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who remains in words of Jesus.

When he found him, he brought him to Antioch, and for a whole year they were guests of the church and taught a large crowd. It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

I think it could be good, if those who think they are disciples of Jesus, would go under that name, because its meaning is clear.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 8 by Tcg]

Okay Ive changed my list from "and" to "or" to avoid indication of judgement. The point being all that exist do so because in my opinion God allows it not necessarily because he approves it.

For anyone that doesn't know how we got many of the denominations that we have, JehovahsWitness has just put on display the mechanism that caused them.

"because in my opinion God allows it not necessarily because he approves it."

Thank you for displaying that it takes humans to make proclamations about the gods. The gods have nothing to say themselves. Just different humans differing on the same god concept. It is not a suprise that we have all the differing denominations that we have. It should be expected.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 8 by Tcg]

Okay Ive changed my list from "and" to "or" to avoid indication of judgement. The point being all that exist do so because in my opinion God allows it not necessarily because he approves it.

If a God existed, and if that God were omnipotent, there would be absolutely no difference between allowing and approving. If one accepts the existence of such a God, one must accept that God not only approves it, but indeed causes it.

Why GOD allowed evil HE did not approve of nor wanted at all:

1. He created us all to fill heaven with people in a full loving communion and communication with HIM and each other, a unity of fellowship best characterised as a marriage.

2. It is axiomatic that true love and a real marriage cannot be forced upon anyone but only chosen by their free will. We must choose by our free will to be married, to accept a marriage proposal, for it to be real and love can't be forced by any means, only accepted.

3. It is also axiomatic that a free will cannot be constrained in any way, that is, an option can't be restricted by GOD from our choosing it just because HE does not like it or we cannot be said to have a free will. If we cannot choose to reject HIM and HIS marriage proposal becasue HE forces us to do only as HE wishes, we do not have a free will.

4. Therefore our free will with the ability and opportunity to reject HIS claim to be our GOD and to reject HIS offer of marriage was an absolute necessity even though the outcome was not what HE wanted and was totally against HIS desires.

There was no way to fulfill HIS desire of a heavenly marriage with us without the opportunity for some to reject that purpose and so cause evil to come into existence in HIS creation against HIS plan and approval.

Your conclusion is wrong since it is based upon the false premise that HE can force everything to HIS will when in fact the true love and true marriage HE desired with HIS creation cannot be so forced.

[ttruscott]

Why does your god allow all these denominations?"

For the same reason he allows atheists, pedophiles or wicked people ...namely because for now it Is not his time to take action for or against any such groups.

And there lies the big question of why God, as a caring father, allows horrors to befall his children. Perhaps there's something wrong in the premise? I'm surprised we don't have the usual list of explanations supplied by JW theory.

ImCo:
Not everyone on earth is a child of GOD under HIS Fatherly care: Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. OR: their defect is that they are not HIS children...

Heb 12:8 If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. implies the same thing that some people are NOT HIS children.

These not children are the source of evils brought into HIS creation. When GOD called for their judgement to save HIS creation from the fullness of their evil, some of HIS legitimate children rejected the judgement as too harsh, as too impulsive and not worthy of a loving GOD. Thus, to teach them that HE was correct in the world that would ensue if they were NOT judged, HE created the earth and sent all sinners here so HIS sinful elect could by experience come to trust HIM and to seek HIS holiness and stop forcing the postponement of the judgement by their rebellion to it.

It is the premise that GOD cannot/would not use the experience evil to open the eyes of HIS sinful elect to their need to be holy and to accept the judgement that is false and brings us to false conclusions.

[Diagoras]

We chose by our free will to be sinners. When HE planted us as sinners into the world of mankind HE had already predestined the future state of our lives after our deaths

If Gods planted me into the world as a sinner, with a predestined position in the afterlife, where exactly does the free will come into it?

[JehovahsWitness]

We chose by our free will to be sinners. When HE planted us as sinners into the world of mankind HE had already predestined the future state of our lives after our deaths

If Gods planted me into the world as a sinner, with a predestined position in the afterlife, where exactly does the free will come into it?

My understanding of ttruscott's belief (please correct me ttruscott's if I am mistaken ) is you exercised your free will before you were born during your prehuman existence. Everything thereafter is just gravey.


JW