Matthew 9:5 ' Jesus didn't do miracles? '

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

All the signs are there that this is a massive bluff by Matthew. Disagree ,if you like.
Why did he use an example of a physical incident to attempt to prove a metaphysical one.

I know that Jesus did neither miracle and this is how I know. Jesus failed miserably to change the ways of anyone around him. Surely that would have been the easiest miracle of the three?

Is the Jesus miracle thing an attempted con?


Come on, Christians, answer the question, why did Jesus fail to change the ways of the people , then and now?
(ps:none of the free-will apologies Please!)

Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

It's the old problem about the old problem. knowing how good humans could and should be and frustratingly not understanding why we aren't. An Nietzsche had this problem - God is no longer valid, but without God (as a belief to give morals) what do we use?

Oddly as in other things, the atheism debate pointed the way. I know that morality as an argument failed in the 80's and the understanding of DNA and instinct has provided understanding of Morality and human instinct about why it there and we can't make it work.

Like war, at least since the two world wars, the idea of glorious death for the fatherland is less popular and No studyin' war no more is the ideal, and yet we are unable to stop it. But primate instinct is the clue, as it is to crime, politics and even the Alpha male, Royalty and dictators, and we will never be able to handle these matters until we understand ourselves as apes that have been taught to handle either chinaware at a tea party or heavy weapons when the rebel groups have run out of child soldiers.

Evolutionary biology is going to provide the answers (and I know what they are already) but religion and the overweening human hubris that goes with it "We are Special Creation - we are More than animals" yes and no. Our problem - solving is amazing, but as we are still primates, driven by instincts we don't understand, and (thanks to religion) don't want to.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

If the human species was ever to be observed objectively we would be categorized as a Plague on the landscape of the Earth. We would be the mossies of Scotland,...ie good for neither land or beast. We are not even good for ourselves as we attempt to create a small time-cameo of 'Bliss',for ourselves, in the Cosmos. All in all , a forgettable event that was botched from the start. How bad is our future going to be??

This time, I'm gone ,T.

Thanks

[AchillesHeel]

We would expect the miracle claims about Jesus in fictional propaganda curated to present him as the Messiah as defined by a Qumran document - 4Q521. This document presents the time of the Messiah coinciding with "wondrous deeds," one of which is the "reviving of the dead." This tradition actually ends up being quoted in Mt. 11:2-5 and Luke 7:20-22 which make it clear these "deeds of the Messiah" were expected from "the one who is to come."

Obviously, if your goal was to present the main character in the story as the Messiah, then you better make you you depict him fulfilling the miracles the Messiah was expected to perform!

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

If the human species was ever to be observed objectively we would be categorized as a Plague on the landscape of the Earth. We would be the mossies of Scotland,...ie good for neither land or beast. We are not even good for ourselves as we attempt to create a small time-cameo of 'Bliss',for ourselves, in the Cosmos. All in all , a forgettable event that was botched from the start. How bad is our future going to be??

This time, I'm gone ,T.

Thanks

Yes, this is what one might even call a 'emotionlessly logical' view of humanity. The earth would not miss us at all. Our absence might even be a good thing. Our continued existence is down to an evolved instinct - selfish desire to survive.

It is much like my own religious debate as a teenage going through a crisis of faith as through a crisis of culture - I had discovered symphonic music and could not deny it was actually better than pop music. I had examined the meaning of Life and decided there wasn't one. Why not just top myself? I went to the edge, looked over and decided I didn't want to jump. No other reason.

That decision made I realised that life had everything to offer and one can be selfish or not. It is a choice and no reward of a heaven if we choose wrong (only the efforts of the police, if they can divert their attention from profitable traffic violations), It is a moral choice to not ruin society and the earth for those who come after. It is down to us and always was.

My desire to contribute something doesn't matter any more than your idea that the earth would be better off if we all topped ourselves. The earth will not miss me when I finally go sideways, no more than it will miss you, if and when you are gone.

[Avoice]

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't do miracles.

God has told us that doing miracles proves nothing. That he allows such things to see if people will follow that person who does miracles.

The messiah may or may not do miracles. But there is nothing foretold of the messiah doing miracles. Jesus could have been born on Mars. That would be unique. But because that is not part of his description then it means nothing and proves nothing.

Water into wine? Who cares. You've been told not to let that influence you

[TRANSPONDER]

It doesn't matter if he did or didn't do miracles.

God has told us that doing miracles proves nothing. That he allows such things to see if people will follow that person who does miracles.

The messiah may or may not do miracles. But there is nothing foretold of the messiah doing miracles. Jesus could have been born on Mars. That would be unique. But because that is not part of his description then it means nothing and proves nothing.

Water into wine? Who cares. You've been told not to let that influence you

That's a bit odd. Surely the whole point of the miracles in the Bible was to prove something 'That the son of man has the power to forgive sins' is one thing. If that doesn't matter, what does?