CULTURAL CHRISTIANITY

[William]

Exploring the distinction between cultural identification with Christianity and living according to the teachings of Christ .
viewtopic.php?p=1126768#p1126768
From the link.

otseng. - Do you regularly talk with God and speak the same language with God?
- Is there a difference between how you live and what the Bible commands?
- Do you attend church and in fellowship with a community of believers?
- Do you know anything intimate about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
- Is there any interaction with God and the church and reaching the lost?
- Do you hide your Christian convictions? Does anybody even know you're a Christian?
- Are you producing any godly fruit in your life?

____________
Reflecting on the Irony of the "Fraudulent Christian" Analogy

I appreciated the thoughtful comparison otseng made between the I-130 process for marriage-based immigration and the concept of being a "bona fide" Christian. It's a striking analogy, and it does bring to light the importance of authenticity, whether in the eyes of the state or within one's spiritual life.
However, as I reflected on this analogy, I found that it opened the door to a larger conversation about the irony inherent in such comparisons, especially when we consider the broader history of Christianity.
If we look at the history of Christianity, particularly in contexts like the founding and expansion of America, we see that many of the methods used by those who called themselves Christians were far from the teachings of Jesus. Christianity, as a political force, was often employed in ways that contradict the very values attributed to Christ—values like humility, peace, and love for one's neighbor.
The acquisition of land through violent conquest, the displacement of Native peoples, and the subsequent production of wealth are examples that don’t align with Jesus' message.

This raises an interesting question: How does one reconcile the analogy of a "fraudulent Christian" with the historical record of Christianity itself? It seems that the term "Christian" became more of a political label than a spiritual one, and in that sense, the use of analogies like this one becomes somewhat ironic. The very institution of Christianity, as history shows, has often acted in ways that could be deemed inauthentic when compared to the teachings of Christ.

Further, it’s worth considering that Jesus never referred to his followers as Christians, nor did he establish the religious identity that later developed around his name. In fact, one might argue that Christianity, as an organized religion, has drifted so far from its original message that those who genuinely wish to follow Jesus' teachings would be better off not identifying as Christians at all.

So while otsengs' analogy makes sense in the context of individual believers, it inadvertently highlights a larger, more complex irony: that the institution of Christianity itself, through its entanglements with power and politics, could be seen as the very definition of a "fraudulent" representation of Christ's message.

Perhaps it's worth reflecting on how these contradictions play out, not only in the history of Christianity but also in the way the faith is practiced today. Does the modern-day Christian identity align with the simplicity and integrity of Jesus' original teachings? Or has it been shaped more by political and cultural forces that, over time, have distorted its core message?

Question for debate.

Are the majority of people who identify as Christians actually 'Cultural Christians,' and if so, are they at risk of being judged as 'fraudulent' by the very standards outlined in Matthew 7:21-23?

[William]

...
Are the majority of people who identify as Christians actually 'Cultural Christians,' and if so, are they at risk of being judged as 'fraudulent' by the very standards outlined in Matthew 7:21-23?

Bible tells a Christian means a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who remain in word of Jesus. By what I see, many "Christians" don't do that. However, most of them probably don't even know the scriptures. That is why I wouldn't call them fraudulent, only ignorant. Obviously ignorance also is not good, but it is not intentional fraudulence.

…The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 11:26
Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:31-32

It’s ironic, isn’t it? Cultural Christians often insist that following the Bible is synonymous with being a disciple of Jesus, as if Jesus himself equated “remaining in my word” with adherence to a book. The Bible, as we know it, wasn’t compiled in Jesus’ time. Yet, many seem to believe that “remaining in my word” must refer to the text that was later canonized by the Church.

This raises an important question: If Jesus didn’t say, “Follow the Bible,” what did he mean by “remaining in my word”? I would argue that he likely referred to living out his teachings of love, humility, and service—principles that existed in practice and in spirit, long before they were written down or turned into a codified text. But somehow, over time, these teachings became inseparable from the idea of following scripture.

Cultural Christianity also tends to point to its acts of kindness as proof of its legitimacy, while ignoring its brutal, un-Jesus-like history—one filled with violence, conquest, and exclusion. This is precisely what Jesus warned against in Matthew 7:21-23, where he spoke of those who would claim to do works in his name, yet still be rejected as “workers of iniquity.” The Church, at the very least, owes the world an apology and an explanation for the centuries of iniquity carried out in Jesus’ name, from crusades to inquisitions, and other acts that seem to have nothing to do with the message of love and forgiveness that Jesus taught.

This leads to a larger question: Have Cultural Christians missed the mark by focusing on the text and their selective acts of kindness, while neglecting the darker aspects of their history that are far from Christ-like? And if discipleship is about embodying Jesus' teachings, how can the Church reconcile this brutal history with what it means to truly "remain in his word"?

Are you a Cultural Christian or a Disciple?

If you are a Disciple, please tell us of your Acts.

[Bible_Student]

When Jesus refers to "abiding in his word," he means much more than simply aligning with the principles he highlighted.

His words encompass beliefs he presented as truths, like the identity of his Father in heaven and their mutual relationship, as well as prophecies he declared as certain, such as the coming day of judgment for humanity (Matt. 25:31-33) and a kingdom that would improve conditions for the humble (Matt. 5:5). Additionally, there were directives about further actions to take (John 15:8), like spreading his teachings and baptizing new followers in his name (Matt. 28:19,20).

There are many more elements implied in Jesus' "words" that define those who follow them as "Christians." To be a genuine Christian, it's essential to consider each of these aspects comprehensively.

Being a Christian is much more than just a culture.

John 8:31 ... “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

[POI]

When Jesus refers to "abiding in his word," he means much more than simply aligning with the principles he highlighted.

His words encompass beliefs he presented as truths, like the identity of his Father in heaven and their mutual relationship, as well as prophecies he declared as certain, such as the coming day of judgment for humanity (Matt. 25:31-33) and a kingdom that would improve conditions for the humble (Matt. 5:5). Additionally, there were directives about further actions to take (John 15:8), like spreading his teachings and baptizing new followers in his name (Matt. 28:19,20).

There are many more elements implied in Jesus' "words" that define those who follow them as "Christians." To be a genuine Christian, it's essential to consider each of these aspects comprehensively.

Being a Christian is much more than just a culture.

John 8:31 ... “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

So, which of his "direct words" do you rationalize, gloss over, or outright ignore? Oh, I mean consider comprehensively?

[William]

When Jesus refers to "abiding in his word," he means much more than simply aligning with the principles he highlighted.

His words encompass beliefs he presented as truths, like the identity of his Father in heaven and their mutual relationship, as well as prophecies he declared as certain, such as the coming day of judgment for humanity (Matt. 25:31-33) and a kingdom that would improve conditions for the humble (Matt. 5:5). Additionally, there were directives about further actions to take (John 15:8), like spreading his teachings and baptizing new followers in his name (Matt. 28:19,20).

There are many more elements implied in Jesus' "words" that define those who follow them as "Christians." To be a genuine Christian, it's essential to consider each of these aspects comprehensively.

Being a Christian is much more than just a culture.

John 8:31 ... “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You raise an important point—that Jesus' words likely encompass more than just principles, including beliefs about his relationship with the Father, prophecies, and directives for spreading his teachings. I agree that these elements are all part of what it means to follow Jesus’ words.

However, this brings us to a key distinction: It's not about being a "genuine Christian"—I’ll leave that to Cultural Christianity. Rather, it’s about being a genuine disciple of Jesus. Over the centuries, Cultural Christianity has often aligned itself with practices of iniquity that are completely at odds with Jesus’ teachings. No true disciple of Jesus would participate in such acts.

This raises an important question for those who still hold on to the Christian label: Shouldn’t they at the very least admit to and apologize for the iniquities that have been carried out in the name of Christianity? The historical record is filled with examples—whether it’s violence, exclusion, or coercion—that contradict the message of love, humility, and service that Jesus emphasized.

While being a "Christian" perhaps should mean much more than just a cultural identity, if one chooses to hold onto that label, there seems to be a responsibility to acknowledge and apologise the darker side of Christian history. If not, then the term risks becoming hollow, divorced from the values and accountability that Jesus truly taught

Is discipleship really about carrying the label "Christian," or is it about embodying Jesus’ teachings, regardless of what history has attached to the term?

[TRANSPONDER]

Different thing, I think. Cultural Christians are those who really don't believe

Couldn't your definition apply to any 'Christian'? Regardless of chosen doctrine, some may not really believe.

I Really can't believe that religious believers all don't believe. I may consider What they believe a bit waff, a bit selective (cafeteria Christians) and some f more Fundamentalist than others, but I am certain some - a good number - really do have a religious belief.

I shan't do them an injustice at least from where i stand. I think many are sincere believers. I just think they are misled.

Others I am sure don't actually believe, at least not in the religion, but just pretend they do at need. Why make life hard with friends, neighbours and fasmily when you can just pretend a few hours on Sunday?

Sure it's a bit of a pain if one or two are really earnest about their faith, but one can just do what the rest of the believers do and stay clear of those kinds.

[Bible_Student]

During his earthly preaching, Jesus tailored his messages to meet the unique needs of each individual he was talking to at each specific moment.

Today's followers of Jesus have access to a vast array of his teachings, enabling them to understand these lessons from a more comprehensive viewpoint. Take, for instance, the parable of the sower in ; it cannot encapsulate all the nuances of Christian preaching. The mission of spreading the Christian faith encompasses far more than what Jesus' parable conveys. Christians are aware that sharing their faith may lead to negative reactions, and they might encounter hostility from those opposed to their beliefs; that was not included in his illustration of the sower.

Thus, being a genuine Christian requires an extensive understanding of Jesus' teachings. These teachings are further elucidated in other Christian texts beyond the gospels. The early Christians, for instance, demonstrated organizational skills, which is also an integral aspect of authentic Christianity.

[POI]

During his earthly preaching, Jesus tailored his messages to meet the unique needs of each individual he was talking to at each specific moment.

Today's followers of Jesus have access to a vast array of his teachings, enabling them to understand these lessons from a more comprehensive viewpoint. Take, for instance, the parable of the sower in ; it cannot encapsulate all the nuances of Christian preaching. The mission of spreading the Christian faith encompasses far more than what Jesus' parable conveys. Christians are aware that sharing their faith may lead to negative reactions, and they might encounter hostility from those opposed to their beliefs; that was not included in his illustration of the sower.

Thus, being a genuine Christian requires an extensive understanding of Jesus' teachings. These teachings are further elucidated in other Christian texts beyond the gospels. The early Christians, for instance, demonstrated organizational skills, which is also an integral aspect of authentic Christianity.

You merely kicked the proverbial rock forward down the street a bit, without really offering any resolution to the standing issue. Which is, if today's followers have access to "a vast array of his teachings", buffet style, 1) which of those teaching does one pick? And more importantly, 2) based upon what reasoning does one decide to pick?

Your response polarizes the term "cafeteria Christian." The Christian can read all listed demands, commands, or other, and simply pick which ones are 'suitable.' Much like one does in the buffet line. 3) How does one determine which commands are more important than any others? Is there some ranking system many of us are not privy to?

[Bible_Student]

I’m not sure what "issue" you’re referring to.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I don’t see any problem. Jehovah's Witnesses thoroughly study the Scriptures and earnestly follow all of Jesus' teachings, the actions of the apostles, and the practices of the original Christians after his death, as documented in the book of Acts, along with many other details about how Jesus' followers were "Christians."

How do you view your "issue"? Are you seeking guidance on which teachings of Jesus to follow to be a genuine "Christian"? The answer is simple: ALL OF THEM.

[POI]

Different thing, I think. Cultural Christians are those who really don't believe

Couldn't your definition apply to any 'Christian'? Regardless of chosen doctrine, some may not really believe.

I Really can't believe that religious believers all don't believe. I may consider What they believe a bit waff, a bit selective (cafeteria Christians) and some f more Fundamentalist than others, but I am certain some - a good number - really do have a religious belief.

I shan't do them an injustice at least from where i stand. I think many are sincere believers. I just think they are misled.

Others I am sure don't actually believe, at least not in the religion, but just pretend they do at need. Why make life hard with friends, neighbours and fasmily when you can just pretend a few hours on Sunday?

Sure it's a bit of a pain if one or two are really earnest about their faith, but one can just do what the rest of the believers do and stay clear of those kinds.

In reading the OP, seems William suggests such individuals are believers, but then do (this/that) out of ignorance or other....?

[POI]

I’m not sure what "issue" you’re referring to.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I don’t see any problem. Jehovah's Witnesses thoroughly study the Scriptures and earnestly follow all of Jesus' teachings, the actions of the apostles, and the practices of the original Christians after his death, as documented in the book of Acts, along with many other details about how Jesus' followers were "Christians."

Not according to the vast majority of the Christian populous directly outside your specific chosen denomination. I reckon many do not deliberately shun those who no longer align with the JW doctrine.

How do you view your "issue"? Are you seeking guidance on which teachings of Jesus to follow to be a genuine "Christian"? The answer is simple: ALL OF THEM.

Great, then I would assume you gave away all your wealth? Oh, wait a minute, how are you able to respond electronically?