Where did Lucifer come from?

[ST88]

If Satan is/was a fallen angel, why wasn't the battle in Heaven mentioned in Genesis?

[dangerdan]

Sorry to press a point, but I’m genuinely curious if there are any Christians out there willing to say that God made the Devil?

[otseng]

Sorry to press a point, but I’m genuinely curious if there are any Christians out there willing to say that God made the Devil?

I think the problem is in semantics. Suppose you are a father and raised a child. At age 16, your son is caught stealing money at where he works. His boss comes to you and asks, "Did you raise this robber?"

So, in a way, yes, God made the devil. But, did God create the devil as he currently is? That is, was the devil evil and corrupt upon inception? Scripture doesn't point to that. This is debated a bit in The Christian Doctrine of Satan.

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

This has always been a very interesting topic of study for myself. Here is my argument of what Scripture tells us about Satan and the fall of the angels.

1.) God created the angels prior to creating the heavens and the earth (the universe).
2.) [Corollary] God then created the heavens and the earth. God’s creation was perfect. (He MAY have also created animals at this time too.)
3.) The universe was first created to be ruled over by angels.
4.) Some of the angels, led by Satan, sinned against God.
5.) These angels were cast down from heaven.
6.) The sin of the angels and God’s following judgement resulted in the subsequent destruction of His creation – just as man’s original sin was felt throughout God’s (second) creation.
7.) The only time this event could have happened is between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

Explanation:
Premise 1:
Scripture – Job 38:4-7; 2 Peter 2:4
On Job 38:4-7, we are told all the morning stars sang and angels shout for joy. The obvious conclusion to this passage is that the angels, the archangels, the cherubs, etc. were all created before the earth. It is questionable I suppose by what is meant by “morning stars” here. I think it represents the cherubim (cf. Isaiah 12:14 & Ezekiel 28:14).
On 2 Peter 2:4, Peter lists 3 instances of ungodly acts leading to God’s judgment. These acts are given chronologically – the fall of the angels, then the flood, then Sodom and Gomorrah.

Corollary 2:
Scripture on creation – Job 38:4-7 & Genesis 1:1-2.
The angels witnessed the creation of the universe.
Scripture on perfection – Deuteronomy 32:4.
The works of God, including creation are done to perfection.
Scripture on inhabitants – Isaiah 45:18 (compound prophecy: flashback and historical)

Premise 3:
Scripture – Jude 6; Ezekiel 28:13-14; Isaiah 14:13
On Jude 6, we find that the angels were given positions of authority. Reference that with Ezekiel 28:13-14, and it is revealed the authority given by one specific angel, a guardian cherub specifically, who was at the time a perfect being, and was annointed by God in the Garden of Eden. This angel was given authority to rule over the [first] earth.

On Ezekiel 28, we see that this chapter does speak of the king of Tyre, but not specifically in verses 11-19, this was prophecy that went beyond any king on earth. In addition to historical prophecy, we also see a larger prophecy (flashback) concerning Satan's struggle with God. That is unless you're willing to believe that the king of Tyre was a guardian cherub, a perfect being, anointed in the Garden of Eden. One should also notice the sins of this cherub resulted in him being thrown to earth. He was a cherub, which is a high order of angel. Cherubim guarded the very throne of God (remember the design of the Ark of the Covenant).

Premise 4 & 5:
Scripture – 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6; Ezekiel 28:15-16; Isaiah 14:13-15; Revelation 12:4
The Scripture speaks for itself.

Premise 6:
Scripture on God’s judgment/destruction – Genesis 1:2 (contrast with Isaiah 45:18 ); Psalm 18:7-15; Jeremiah 4:23-26;
On the contrast between Genesis 1:2 & Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah’s vision makes the point that God created and formed the earth specifically to be inhabited. Contrasted with Genesis 1:2, where the earth was (became) formless and empty. God did not create the earth to be this way. The very fact that the earth was formless (tohuw) and empty (bohuw), implies (to me at least) that something happened to God’s perfect creation (Deut 32:4; Isaiah 45:18 ).
At this point, the tense of the phrase “to be” in Genesis 1:2 must be discussed. “Now the earth was (or became) formless and empty.” Considering other Scripture, we are led to believe that the earth became formless and empty. The earth was not created to be a place of waste, chaos and void as the Hebrew words “tohuw” and “bohuw” show it to be.

On Psalm 18:7-15, this vision by David is also a compound prophetic vision that includes both flashback prophecy and historical prophecy. While Psalm 18 speaks of God delivering David from his enemies, David includes a specific prophetic vision of God’s judgement that speaks directly of the earth’s physical destruction and emergence of darkness (Psalm 18:11). Consider the question: If God is light and only God existed prior to Genesis 1:2, where did darkness come from? Darkness is almost always associated with sin in Scripture. In this context, darkness is defined as the absence of light, but why was there an absence of light in the first place?
Psalm 18:15 – “foundations of the earth laid bare” – cf. Genesis 1:2 – “the earth became formless and empty.” – contrast with Job 38:4 & Isaiah 45:18.

On Jeremiah 4:23-26 (cf. Psalm 18:7-15), Jeremiah also gives a compound prophetic vision that compares the destruction brought by Babylon, to the destruction that occured prior to Adam, which obviously was the fall of the angels; both were in accordance with and characteristic of God’s judgment.
Jeremiah 4:23 – “formless and empty” - the same phrase in Genesis 1:2; "the light was gone" - Contrasted with Genesis 1:3 and referenced with Psalm 18:7-15.
Jeremiah 4:24 - “the mountains quaked” – cf. Psalm 18:7
Jeremiah 4:25 - "and there were no people" - actually the same underlying Hebrew phrase found elsewhere only Genesis 2:5.

Compare with God’s judgment of angels with His judgement of man.
Scripture on angel’s judgment– 2 Peter 2:4-6; Jude 6-7; Ezekiel 28:16-17; Isaiah 14:9-12; 15; Matthew 25:41
Scripture on man’s judgement - 2 Peter 2:4-6; Jude 6-7; Genesis 3:23; Genesis 4:12; Matthew 25:41.

We know that when the angels sinned, they were cast down to earth (and hell) from heaven. In the same way Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3:23. Satan essentially became a wandering spirit of the earth, the same fate Cain received in Genesis 4:12. Both rebellions (angels and man) resulted in curses and destruction upon creation itself. The earth was also destroyed by the Flood. After the Flood, God promised not to destroy the entire earth again. However, when Israel and other nations rebelled against Him, His judgement did bring destruction upon the people and land (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah, Jerusalem and Babylon). It is important to note that it is completely consistent with God’s judgement to bring the destruction. Since the gap in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 is the necessary place to posit the fall of the angels in Scripture, this would surely explain why the earth became formless and empty in Genesis 1:2.

Finally, true to God’s consistent judgement, both angels and humans are destined to meet the same fate of eternal damnation in the “lake of fire” (Matthew 25:41, cf. Revelation 20:14-15).

Why wasn't this all this mentioned in Genesis?

Genesis is basically the anthropocentric account of (re)creation. It is focused on God's creation of man and the subsequent history of mankind. Since the fall of the angels is NOT necessary for understanding the history of mankind and God's plan of salvation for man through Jesus Christ, it is not stated in Genesis. God has revealed the truth about the angels to us, but only in passing lament (through the prophets) when He grieves over man's sins.

Furthermore, God didn't create Satan as an evil being. Satan made himself that way. God created him as a perfect being (angel) with free will, with the purpose to worship and serve God (Psalm 103:20-21). For any rational being to have free will, the possibility for that rational being to do evil must exist. Otherwise the being is not truely free to choose his actions.

No doubt this is enough to open the door for more discussion, so I'll stop here.

[Arch]

7.) The only time this event could have happened is between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.
It is important to note that it is completely consistent with God’s judgement to bring the destruction. Since the gap in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 is the necessary place to posit the fall of the angels in Scripture, this would surely explain why the earth became formless and empty in Genesis 1:2.

Why wasn't this all this mentioned in Genesis?

Genesis is basically the anthropocentric account of (re)creation. It is focused on God's creation of man and the subsequent history of mankind.
No doubt this is enough to open the door for more discussion, so I'll stop here.

I didn't think many other people knew about the gap in GEN1 AND GEN2 or paid attention to the fact that the bible says the Earth, BECAME WITHOUT FORM... showing it had form before that and that GEN is the reformation of the planet.

Even though some new version of the bible have changed this wording.

Also, it could be concluded that the war of "heaven" might have taken place on earth causing mass destruction, thus it became void and without form.

But thats just a theory!!!!!!!!

However good form ole chap GOOD FORM!!!!

[hiramabbi2]

Gap Theory is just another fairy-tale not supported by the Scripture. It's very good story before going to sleep. It's an invention of the unbelievers, who could not support their view with Scripture. And, it has nothing to do with Lucifer.

Genesis 1:1-2 narrate us the condition of the DEEP before the creation heaven and earth got started in the beginning.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83&start=0

"In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, (Water) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Genesis 1:3 shows us the Light was brought forth into physical existence to turn the condition of the deep (empty) from darkness (death) to light (life).

Jesus (YHWH), the Son of the Invisible God, WAS the Ligth that was brought forth when the Word (Jesus) was spoken in the beginning "LET THERE BE LIGHT". John 1:1; Gen. 1:3

All things were made through/by him: and without the Light (Son) was not anything made that was made. Because, in him (Jesus) is Life. John 1:3-4

Jesus/YWHW, the Son, provided the Light in heaven on the first three days of creation as he would also be the one providing the Light in the New Jerusalem to come (Rev. 21:23).

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb (Jesus) is the light thereof." Revelation 21:23



God Bless

[Arch]

Gap Theory is just another fairy-tale not supported by the Scripture. It's very good story before going to sleep. It's an invention of the unbelievers, who could not support their view with Scripture. And, it has nothing to do with Lucifer.

Dude you really need to check your assumptions, the gap theory is actually a Theory created by believers of the bible. People in the hebrew israelites religion and the christian RELIGION profess and believe in that exact theory.

The fact of the matter is that mostly only well versed religious people have pointed that fact out. You really need to learn not to stop putting your foot in your mouth. Your assumptions are always off based.

Then on top of that you refute theory will more even far fetched theories of your own.

JUST BECAUSE YOU QUOTE A SCRIPTURE WHICH YOU INTERPRET TO FIT YOUR IDEAS DOESN'T MEAN IT REALLY DOES!!!

[hiramabbi2]

Gap Theory is just another fairy-tale not supported by the Scripture. It's very good story before going to sleep. It's an invention of the unbelievers, who could not support their view with Scripture. And, it has nothing to do with Lucifer.

Dude you really need to check your assumptions, the gap theory is actually a Theory created by believers of the bible. People in the hebrew israelites religion and the christian RELIGION profess and believe in that exact theory.

The fact of the matter is that mostly only well versed religious people have pointed that fact out. You really need to learn not to stop putting your foot in your mouth. Your assumptions are always off based.

Then on top of that you refute theory will more even far fetched theories of your own.

JUST BECAUSE YOU QUOTE A SCRIPTURE WHICH YOU INTERPRET TO FIT YOUR IDEAS DOESN'T MEAN IT REALLY DOES!!!

Is this thread not open to everybody for debate? Why attack the poster and not deal with the issue, heh Arch?

Do I know you from before and just hiding from your created SN? If you like talking to yourself/Esoteric, then create your own private room!

Like I said, Gap Theory is just product of wild imagination of others who could not support their view with SCRIPTURE - therefore, they are known only as "theory", nothing more. And again, has nothing to do with Lucifer.

On the other hand, I provided Scriptures to prove my case and position. Therefore, don't be jealous if you could not support your own assumption, Biblically

Only willingly blind followers of this theory, will always stumble to this truth of God.

[otseng]

Is this thread not open to everybody? Why attact the poster and not the issue? Do I know you hidding from your newly created SN? If you like talking to yourself/Esoteric, then create your own private room!

Hiramabbi2, that is enough. You have already been formally warned of rule violations. Another formal warning will result in a token fine and your name being placed on public display in the probation room.

How do you know that Arch might be Esoteric? Even as the admin of this forum, I do not know if they are the same person. So your charges are baseless.

I adjure you to exercise respect of others in your posts. Since you have already received a warning, it would be wise to doubly take care in the wording of your posts.

[hiramabbi2]

Is this thread not open to everybody? Why attact the poster and not the issue? Do I know you hidding from your newly created SN? If you like talking to yourself/Esoteric, then create your own private room!

Hiramabbi2, that is enough. You have already been formally warned of rule violations. Another formal warning will result in a token fine and your name being placed on public display in the probation room.

How do you know that Arch might be Esoteric? Even as the admin of this forum, I do not know if they are the same person. So your charges are baseless.

Dear Mr. Moderator:

I did not say that Arch is Esoteric, did I? I said if he likes to talk to himself/ (or) Esoteric (since, they seem to agree together in harmony), they should go to a private room. What's wrong with that Mr. Otseng?

On the other hand, the record would show that I was attacked personally for expressing my belief and not dealing with the issue, yet, you have not said or done anything about it? WHY?

Please educate me how you moderate this kind of personal attack so I understand.


God Bless

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Gap Theory is just another fairy-tale not supported by the Scripture. It's very good story before going to sleep. It's an invention of the unbelievers, who could not support their view with Scripture. And, it has nothing to do with Lucifer.

I gave a logically sound and valid argument with plenty of Scriptural support. It's ridiculous that on a debate forum one responds to my arguments with "that's just a fairy tale" and doesn't bother to refute my argument. "The gap in Genesis is false, cuz I said so!"

Gap Theory is just another fairy-tale not supported by the Scripture. It's very good story before going to sleep. It's an invention of the unbelievers, who could not support their view with Scripture.
...
Like I said, Gap Theory is just product of wild imagination of others who could not support their view with SCRIPTURE - therefore, they are known only as "theory", nothing more. And again, has nothing to do with Lucifer.
...
Only willingly blind followers of this theory, will always stumble to this truth of God.

Seriously, can you respond with anything other than ad hominem attacks? Not to mention the gall it takes to call myself and Arch "unbelievers." Judge not my friend, lest ye be judged first.

Did you even read my post? Obviously not, since I cited at first count 12-13 passages of Scripture to support my argument.



BTW, I resent the asinine implication that I am Arch...

Do I know you from before and just hiding from your created SN? If you like talking to yourself/Esoteric, then create your own private room!

...it is just plain false. Arch disagreed and responded to one of my posts in the "Born Again" thread. Besides, why would I need another SN? I like mine. Esoteric_Illuminati is much more original than "Arch."
<3 Arch

Furthermore, I have no reason to "hide" hiramabbi2. But I do have more than enough reason to no longer waste my time responding to your jibber jabber.

What ultimately annoys me is the fact that I have to make posts like this to defend myself and not my arguments. Grow up.