Where's the crime?

[Athetotheist]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

[OneJack]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

A mere news item is not acceptable as truth in the court of law. The bible accounts are also the same as news items in a newspaper in this regard. Therefore, the truth about the judgment of God to stone to death the man picking sticks on the day of the sabbath, is still unreliable, so far, but not until we hear the truth from God, who is beside us all the time.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #10]

Gathering sticks was the work he was doing.

Perhaps, but gathering sticks is not necessary always work. Some could just gather sticks for fun.

.....which would still have violated the sabbath rule since the idea of a sabbath was that it was a day of rest as an expression of piety.

But, it is interesting, if you think people who work on sabbath day should be killed according to the Bible. That would mean all the guards and priests that did they work on sabbath day should be killed.

It's also interesting that you seem to be assuming that frivolous play would be allowed on a day of pious rest when even practical work was prohibited.

And if guards and priests could do their work without violating a sabbath made for man, what would be wrong with gathering sticks on that day if it was done as necessary work?

I didn't make the rule, so I don't have to try to justify any impracticality it entails.

[1213]

....which would still have violated the sabbath rule since the idea of a sabbath was that it was a day of rest...

Yes, it was meant to be a day of rest from thee job person has. But, it does not mean person should stop living that day.

And if guards and priests could do their work without violating a sabbath made for man, what would be wrong with gathering sticks on that day if it was done as necessary work?

Because of the God's judgment, I don't think gathering sticks on that day in that case was necessary work.

I didn't make the rule, so I don't have to try to justify any impracticality it entails.

Yes, you only make an interpretation that is meant to cause artificially a problem that doesn't really exist without your interpretation.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #13]

Yes, it was meant to be a day of rest from thee job person has. But, it does not mean person should stop living that day.

Then why should a person have to refrain from gathering sticks on that day?

Because of the God's judgment, I don't think gathering sticks on that day in that case was necessary work.

When the woman in John 8 is caught in adultery, do you think she's doing necessary work? If she isn't, why no judgement on her? And if there doesn't have to be judgement on her for adultery, why does there have to be judgement on a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

[1213]

Yes, it was meant to be a day of rest from thee job person has. But, it does not mean person should stop living that day.

Then why should a person have to refrain from gathering sticks on that day?

According to thee Bible, one should refrain doing work on sabbath day. If you gather sticks as a work, then you should not do it on sabbath day.

Because of the God's judgment, I don't think gathering sticks on that day in that case was necessary work.

When the woman in John 8 is caught in adultery, do you think she's doing necessary work? If she isn't, why no judgement on her? And if there doesn't have to be judgement on her for adultery, why does there have to be judgement on a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

Adultery should not be anyone's job. Adultery is wrong and no one should do that. But, as Jesus shows, it can be forgiven. Violating sabbath rule could also be forgiven. And I think forgiveness in Bible works only if person repents, shows he understands he has done wrongly and regrets it and doesn't want to do it again.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #15]

Then why should a person have to refrain from gathering sticks on that day?

According to thee Bible, one should refrain doing work on sabbath day. If you gather sticks as a work, then you should not do it on sabbath day.

Then how is a sabbath made for man and not man for a sabbath?

Adultery should not be anyone's job. Adultery is wrong and no one should do that. But, as Jesus shows, it can be forgiven. Violating sabbath rule could also be forgiven.

Then why isn't it forgiven in this story?

And I think forgiveness in Bible works only if person repents, shows he understands he has done wrongly and regrets it and doesn't want to do it again.

Then why isn't the stick-gathering man given a chance to repent?

[1213]

Then how is a sabbath made for man and not man for a sabbath?

I think a sabbath made is for man, because it is good for a man to rest sabbath day and not do his work all the time.

Then why isn't it forgiven in this story?

Maybe because there was no good reason for that.

Then why isn't the stick-gathering man given a chance to repent?

How do you know he didn't have chance for that?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #17]

I think a sabbath made is for man, because it is good for a man to rest sabbath day and not do his work all the time.

Why should violating that rule automatically carry a death sentence? That doesn't seem like the behavior of a deity who is "compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love" (Psalm 103:8).


Then why isn't it forgiven in this story?

Maybe because there was no good reason for that.

The wicked turning from his ways and living (Ezekiel 18:23) isn't a good reason?


Then why isn't the stick-gathering man given a chance to repent?

How do you know he didn't have chance for that?

The text doesn't say he was given a chance, and the only thing the text accuses him of is gathering sticks on a sabbath. It doesn't accuse him of being unrepentent.

[1213]

...Why should violating that rule automatically carry a death sentence?...

I don't think Bible gives any reason to think a death sentence comes automatically.

...The wicked turning from his ways and living (Ezekiel 18:23) isn't a good reason?

I believe that could be a good reason. Because in this case the judgment was given, I believe there was no good reason to forgive anymore.

...The text doesn't say he was given a chance, and the only thing the text accuses him of is gathering sticks on a sabbath. It doesn't accuse him of being unrepentent.

The Bible shows otherwise that God always gives chance and is patient. Therefore I would assume the person was wicked and constantly going to go against God and His commandments.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #19]

...The text doesn't say he was given a chance, and the only thing the text accuses him of is gathering sticks on a sabbath. It doesn't accuse him of being unrepentent.

The Bible shows otherwise that God always gives chance and is patient. Therefore I would assume the person was wicked and constantly going to go against God and His commandments.

Then why not keep to the biblical principle of "life for life" (Exodus 21:23) instead of life for gathering sticks?