“Why do atheists/others Deny God, Scriptures,

[joer]

Last week I came across something in reflection. Spirituality grows and develops as we do. There are three stages.

1. The first stage is discovering that God Exists. This usually takes place between 0-20 years of age.

2. The second stage is being led to God. You begin and develop learning about God’s purpose in your life. This happens about 20-40 years of age.

T3. he third stage is Living a Spirit led, God led Life. Now you know why you’re here and your ready for your fruits to be lived and seen. God is alive within you. Now you see yourself as Spirit within a body. This happens about 40 to forever.

So when I noticed this I thought about all my atheists friends here and I thought I may have found a cause of atheism.

Now on a normal world (The Vatican admitted last week aliens are our brothers and sisters in God) this would be our normal spiritual development. But on our world with so much error within it due to a messed up start with the negative influence of the Lucifer rebellion and the failure of Adam and Eve, our spiritual development can become jeopardized. So if we have a problem at any level of our spiritual development we can become spiritually stunted, become damaged, atrophy spiritually and suffer the consequences of our Spiritual malformation.

I further conceptualized that the level we were at when the spiritual trauma occurred might have specific symptoms or traits that are common to other atheists or non-believers

So my questions to atheists and/or non-believers are these:

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith (if there was one) is too graphic or insidious to share here.

3. What was the course of development of your atheism?

I also think the participation in this discussion will help other Christians and believers better understand our atheist and non-believer brothers and sisters.

Peace and knowledge to all.

[Evales]

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

I can't remember a time when I believed my family never went to church and in scripture I listened to the stories but it was just like story time for me. My family never told me WE DON'T BELIEVE IN THIS. I just sorta never really thought that what they were talking about could be real. I read a lot as a kid it was just like my stories.

2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith (if there was one) is too graphic or insidious to share here.

None

3. What was the course of development of your atheism?

After childhood and realizing that people actually do believe in those stories I never really had a problem then I developed teenage skepticism and showed my disbelief rather harshly now I'm back to where I began sorta.

I do like the stories and listen to the theories, sometimes I rebut sometimes I support.

[Zzyzx]

.

I also had a close friend, whose family was in crisis. His mother was seriously ill, and his father just sent to prison for 2 years for defrauding his company. As a result my friend was deeply troubled and very vulnerable. The RE teacher seeing the changes in behavior in my friend and aware of his problems reached out by first befriending and then drawing him into bible readings. I am sure the teachers motivation were genuine, that he thought he was doing the right thing, and was convinced he was only helping. Within a couple of weeks my friend had declared he had found God. He describe how the RE teacher had encouraged him (slightly forcefully) to get down on his knees and pray; my friend described how he had felt the spirit of God and was utterly moved by the experience. Never knowing anything like it, and was now certain that God loved him etc etc. The moment initiated a period where my friend came under the influence of the RE teacher, attending his church, and being drawn into a collection of people with the same self affirming world view. All the time he as trying to convince his more skeptical long standing friends that God was now his best friend and had change his life…..except it hadn’t. He was just as unhappy, and strangely his problems only began to recede when his mother recovered and his father came out of prison.

The way I saw it, and I still see it, is that the RE teacher, with the best of naïve and unreflective intentions, was still a predator that pounced on a vulnerable kid to try and impose his world view. The good he did was minimal to non existent. Whilst my friend was saying stuff like God is love he was putting on weight, his hair was getting greasier, he was smoking, dabbling with light drugs, and generally depressed until the causes of his depression were removed.

In the last couple of years I have caught up with that friend and have the discussed this period. As a 40 year old looking back he now describes the RE teacher behavior as “predatory”, and I think is slightly embarrassed to recall some of the stuff he use to say,

Bold added

Do you know if the friend is still Christian and/or is still as "fervent" a believer?

I find the bolded statements above to be very illuminating

family was in crisis. His mother was seriously ill, and his father just sent to prison for 2 years

Within a couple of weeks my friend had declared he had found God. He describe how the RE teacher had encouraged him (slightly forcefully) to get down on his knees and pray; my friend described how he had felt the spirit of God and was utterly moved by the experience

he as trying to convince his more skeptical long standing friends that God was now his best friend and had change his life…..except it hadn’t. He was just as unhappy, and strangely his problems only began to recede when his mother recovered and his father came out of prison

generally depressed until the causes of his depression were removed

he now describes the RE teacher behavior as “predatory”

1. A vulnerable person has difficulty coping with problems
2. A well meaning religionist offers “hope” through worship
3. The vulnerable person becomes religious and THINKS he has changed for the better (but apparently had not changed)
4. The “newly religious” attempts to convince friends that “god is his best friend”
5. Problems do not go away until the cause is removed (in spite of worship and prayer)
6. Once causes are removed and problems reduced the vulnerable person realizes that he was preyed upon (inadvertently perhaps) by the religionist offering “solutions” in exchange for worship

[joer]

First of all I want to thank all those who responded. I really appreciate your efforts . I know it has already helped me understand and empathize with all of you from a strictly human perspective. And I genuinely believe that it may touch an empathetic resonance within the community of believers as well. My apologies for any offense or distress that the slant (Religious basis) of my questions my have caused you. The questions are not from a book or weren’t construed to represent any scientific purpose or meet any intellectual standard other than that or a common conversation or discussion among friends of the ideas I put forth as speculation from a Religious perspective into a possible cause of atheism.

So in that light I Thank you for the candidness of your responses. I find them very valuable in addressing my ideas. Some of the responses are not what I expected, but because of those who offered straight forward answers in spite of the incorrect or negative connotations, or lack of atheistic understanding perceived in the questions , I believed it helped me “SEE” you in a more perfect light. (FROM MY PRESPECTIVE)

One of the biggest things I gathered from the answers was how it reminded me of my own doubt which I believe I’ve expressed here before but only sparingly that I felt around age 11. And the conviction in my beliefs after investigating my questions about God, by about age 14. Many here mentioned 15 as an age where the convictions of their non-belief in God were solidified.


Furrowed Brow

I’ve never believed. But active denial started around age 11 and my first RE lesson at secondary school.

1/ Did not think about God at all before age 8/9 as far as I can recall.

2/ Slowly dawned that people were actually being serious about God somewhere around 11, and that was my OMG moment. You are kidding right……you’re not kidding? OMG. Okay serious now…tell me you are kidding?

3/ From the age of 15 a general growing dissatisfaction with the presence of religion and the way it screws up people ability to think straight

Mr. Why

A Christian conversion at 15. Non-belief at 22

No specific event, just the consequence of questioning everything which started about age 19.

Fallibleone

Not really. I never had a belief. It never made sense to me. I was astounded that others believed in school those stories which were so clearly fantasy to me.

C-Nub

I wouldn't point to a certain age, nor would I phrase it that way. From the earliest point in my life, I was very doubtful of my church's (The Catholics) claims regarding God and our shared histories.

Bernee

Around age 7.

Then around age 11 I started reading about alternate religions and philosophies.

Around age 15 I had my first 'meditative' experience that introduced me to a nascent understanding of the true nature of our being.

Another thing that seemed very natural and common to many of the respondents is the fact that they encountered “Failed Promises and Unanswered questions” in respect to their experiences with Religion.

Zzy

I have encountered few if any non-religionists who have become non-religious as a result of trauma in life – more have expressed disappointment or disillusionment with the failed promises of religion.

Once Convinced

The failed promises were a huge issue.

Mr. Why

No specific event, just the consequence of questioning everything which started about age 19.

Fallibleone

When I was older (around my late teens) I went looking for this marvellous thing which so many people told me they were so joyful for having found, and came away empty handed.

It started out as something which never really occurred to me. It was of no importance whatsoever in my life. As I got older and I realised other people saw me as a bit 'weird', I looked into religion, as described above. After a number of years of growing more and more disillusioned as no belief whatsoever was sparked in me, my atheism began to grow

C-Nub

I was constantly asking questions, and the religious answers (God did it... he works in mysterious ways) held absolutely no satisfaction towards me.

No one could answer any of these questions, and in the scientific world, they no longer needed to be asked. From that point on, I started to find answers, and while science is often complicated and it took me years to connect a lot of the dots that now make up my understanding of the universe and its history,

It started with the various counter-intuitive aspects of the church. The ten commandments were especially troubling for me, as they seemed to view natural, biological reactions as sins.

Most except for maybe McCulloch and Once Convinced seemed to indicate they never had a REAL SOLID belief in God. Maybe Mr. Why had a solid belief when he converted.

Evalez

I can't remember a time when I believed my family never went to church

Fallibleone

Not really. I never had a belief. It never made sense to me. I was astounded that others believed in school those stories which were so clearly fantasy to me.

Furrowed Brow

I’ve never believed. But active denial started around age 11

c-nUB

I wouldn't point to a certain age, nor would I phrase it that way. From the earliest point in my life, I was very doubtful of my church's (The Catholics) claims regarding God and our shared histories.

Bernee

Joer wrote

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

Around age 7.

So in respect to this new (for me) understanding of when Spirituality (belief in and understanding of God) is established, most never entered into the first stage of their Spiritual development.

It’s possible that McCulloch, Once Convinced and Mr. Why entered the second stage , being led to God by desiring to further their spiritual development but were disillusioned by the failure of getting satisfactory answers to their religious questions and/or “Failed promises” , I’m not sure if those (the promises) that failed, did so at the local level of the congregation, or the higher level of their organized religion or at the level of God. I’d be interested in more detail in that regard if they were willing to share.

Mr. Why

No specific event, just the consequence of questioning everything which started about age 19.

Once Convinced

The failed promises were a huge issue

McCulloch

joer wrote:
1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

About 30.

joer wrote:
2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief?

I attempted to delve deeper into the philosophical and evidential basis for my faith.

Another interesting aspect is that I would have expected at least some to have lost faith due to a traumatic event that may have undermined their faith in God. Like loss of a loved one or a loved pet at a certain vulnerable age. Revulsion at loss of life and beauty in Natural disasters, abuses of a sexual or violent nature, or as C-Nub put it:

I think you'll find most atheists were not, in fact, diddled by their preachers.

So I was surprised somewhat, that no atheist reported a loss of faith due to something like the aforementioned.

One more thing that stood out in my observation was the personal satisfaction of the answers they found through their own endeavors at answering their own questions that religion failed to answer. I hadn’t thought of it but it’s very similar to the satisfaction believers find in their spiritual answers to their own questions. So it seems the questioning, finding answers and personal satisfaction in their personal efforts are common to both groups.

bernee

I am at a position where I see no need, reason or evidence for any god. Forty plus years of knowledge seeking, contemplative practice and self inquiry have given me a firm basis for confidence in my assessment of the nature of our being. All meaning and purpose in my life derives from this and manifests with my seeking a mindful awareness of the happiness and well being of all.

C-Nub

I started to find answers, and while science is often complicated and it took me years to connect a lot of the dots that now make up my understanding of the universe and its history, I can now explain, in stages, how its development took place. I understand what happened on the atomic level as well as on the solar-scale. It's very satisfying for me to know not only what happened, but HOW, and to understand the function, origin and nature of the forces that guided it.

Thank You for your forthrightness in answering my questions for me. It REALLY did reveal something to me in terms of believers and non-believers: We may look a lot more different than we really are.

Another thing I’ve noticed is that atheists haven’t received the proper respect as human beings from believers that they naturally deserve by God’s standards as well as what Human standards should be.

I found we have much more in common than I thought. At certain ages following our own natural instincts of inquisitivness we found different paths of expression that we adapted into of lives in the natural course of development.

I’d be curious to find out of those who never really believed in God from the start:

1. How many didn’t have any parental guidance in Religious Education ? or

2. If you did Have parental Religious guidance where was the disconnect. At the family level, The religious teachers level or some other aspect?

Furrow Brow
Fallibleone
Mr.Why
Evalez
Berne51
McCulloch
Zzzyzx
Once Convinced
C-Nub
And all who post on this thread

Thank You again everybody for your generous help by sharing your personal experience in this my effort to understanding atheism from my perspective.

Good Will and Good Being to you All.

[The Duke of Vandals]

1. The first stage is discovering that God Exists. This usually takes place between 0-20 years of age.

False. Christians are indoctrinated from toddlerhood (or from a time of emotional weakness) to believe that god exists. They are taught to use a different set of logical rules for claims relating to Christianity.

The other two alleged "stages" are no different from the first. That's one of the problems with Christianity. It stifles any sort of development of personal growth as Eastern religions do. While the mysticism of Buddhism is as much crap as Christian mysticism, the idea of getting rid of ego is something Christianity doesn't offer. Quite the opposite actually. If you're scratching your head about that, then Christianity has done it's job.

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

At the same time everyone else's starts: toddlerhood or a time of emotional betrayal by the religion.

2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith (if there was one) is too graphic or insidious to share here.

I was at a summer camp with my family. A YMCA camp. The camp lasted a week. One year when I was very young, it rained every day. There was sweet **uck-all to do at that camp if it was pouring rain. EVERYONE complained about it. EVERYONE hated the rain. Everyone wanted it to stop. But, without fail, at every meal when we went to say grace, some douche would thank god for the rain. It taught me that there's a lot of double speak involved with prayer and religion and set me on the path of skepticism and intellectual honesty.

3. What was the course of development of your atheism?

Doubt. Skepticism. Research. Questioning. Understanding. Intellectual honesty.

[/i]

[Furrowed Brow]

Do you know if the friend is still Christian and/or is still as "fervent" a believer?

Not totally sure. Next time I see him I’ll ask where exactly he stands. But he seems to be non practicing/lapsed/agnostic. (By the way your 1 to 6 about sums it up).

1 How many didn’t have any parental guidance in Religious Education ?

No parental guidance. Religion was a non subject in my house. I was probably the first one to discuss my views when I told my mother I was an atheist when I was 11. She was a little taken back as I remember. My mother was not religious but did have some vague ideas that way. In those days I suspect she would probably have written Church of England in her passport…because she was English and the Church of England was English therefore it must be her church.

My religious education consisted of nativity play and hymn singing at primary school. However their point kind of passed me by. A little later Zefferreli’s Jesus of Nazareth, and some RE lessons at secondary school for which the only thing I can remember was reading the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Which I hated. Occasionally there was bible readings in school assembly, and once a year the representatives of the Gideons would turn up and give out pocket sized new testaments. (If there is God then I’m going to be burning in hell for what I did to my copy).

(As I was writing this I have just remembered something I completely forgotten. My mother had a friend who would egg her on to go with her to tarot readings and see people who read palms, or sand or tea leaves or some such. I must have been about 9/10 and I was dragged along to a church for a spiritual evening when a showbizzy like character started to pass on messages. Really not exactly sure how old I was but I do remember being deeply unimpressed and thinking the guy did not look very trustworthy. Memory is a strange thing. I have not thought of that for 30 years)

And that was it.

[Zzyzx]

.
Why is it difficult for some (most?) apologists to understand that not believing in “gods” does not require a “cause” any more than not believing in fairies or goblins requires a “cause”.

Anyone who does not believe in fairies or goblins KNOWS why people don’t believe in “gods” – the reason is exactly the same – there is NO REASON to believe – NO evidence that such things are real – only stories told by people who may or may not believe the tales themselves, but who attempt to convince others.

[McCulloch]

Most except for maybe McCulloch and Once Convinced seemed to indicate they never had a REAL SOLID belief in God.

As was pointed out, memory can be a tricky thing. Most believers will admit periods of doubt. Those of us who are non-believers may remember our doubting with more significance that perhaps the believers who have found some way to suppress them. However, at the time of our believing, our doubts would probably be indistinguishable from the normal doubts of many believers.

It’s possible that McCulloch, Once Convinced and Mr. Why entered the second stage, being led to God by desiring to further their spiritual development but were disillusioned by the failure of getting satisfactory answers to their religious questions and/or “Failed promises” , I’m not sure if those (the promises) that failed, did so at the local level of the congregation, or the higher level of their organized religion or at the level of God. I’d be interested in more detail in that regard if they were willing to share.

Are you looking for something along the lines of, "they left their faith because the faithful did not measure up"? I don't think that you will get much mileage out of that line of inquiry. Many of the faithful are aware of the failings at the family, congregational or organized religion level. But if there really is a God, the failings of those who claim to follow him would not have affected my belief. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Job should be able to see that.

I’d be curious to find out of those who never really believed in God from the start:

1. How many didn’t have any parental guidance in Religious Education ? or

My parents did not provide much in the way of religious education. They did not agree with each other on religious matters and essentially left it up to us to decide for ourselves religious matters. I became convinced that there must be a divine being and that divine being must be the God of the Bible when I was about 19.

2. If you did Have parental Religious guidance where was the disconnect. At the family level, The religious teachers level or some other aspect?

This question is quite biased. My falling away was not as a result of any disconnect or failure of those who were my spiritual leaders but from my current point of view, the failure of what they were teaching. I just found that what they were teaching did not line up with the available facts.

[MrWhy]

joer,

Your religious frame of reference views these questions as, "why atheists didn't discover god, or were not properly led to god". I would like to point out that many atheists view the question from an opposite position. It's not a loss of some truth (a truth missed), but the gain of an attribute that rejects indoctrination without appropriate supporting evidence and reason.

Why accept any ideology perpetuated by culture, and based on centuries old documents containing no god exclusive information? what religion and god would you follow if you had been born in a Muslim country, and raised in a Muslim family? What god would you discover if you had not been "taught" by your culture? Why do we accept culture as an accurate teacher or example, when there many examples of ignorance and misguided extremes riding on cultural tradition.

This cultural power is strong evidence that any specific religion is perpetuated by the embracing culture, and not by an independent supernatural agent.

We are pawns to the power of culture, and it's an albatross weighing on the neck of progress.

[joer]

I’d like to thank you my friends for the continued openness in sharing your personal experiences of your atheism and it’s development. It has been most revealing to me. It has opened my eyes.

In this second round of sharing I found out a couple of more interesting things.

It’s seems that most of those who responded did not have families or parents with any Spiritual back ground or history or a weak one to say the least to pass on to their children.

Evales wrote:

I can't remember a time when I believed my family never went to church

McCulloch wrote:

My parents did not provide much in the way of religious education.

Furrowed brow wrote:

joer wrote:

1 How many didn’t have any parental guidance in Religious Education ?

No parental guidance. Religion was a non subject in my house. I was probably the first one to discuss my views when I told my mother I was an atheist when I was 11.

My religious education consisted of nativity play and hymn singing at primary school.

My mother had a friend who would egg her on to go with her to tarot readings and see people who read palms, or sand or tea leaves or some such. I must have been about 9/10 and I was dragged along to a church for a spiritual evening when a showbizzy like character started to pass on messages. Really not exactly sure how old I was but I do remember being deeply unimpressed and thinking the guy did not look very trustworthy. Memory is a strange thing. I have not thought of that for 30 years)

As the Duke put it:
Duke wrote:

Christians are indoctrinated from toddlerhood (or from a time of emotional weakness) to believe that god exists.

Quote:
1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

At the same time everyone else's starts: toddlerhood or a time of emotional betrayal by the religion.

And Mr. Why wrote:

What god would you discover if you had not been "taught" by your culture? Why do we accept culture as an accurate teacher or example, when there many examples of ignorance and misguided extremes riding on cultural tradition.

what religion and god would you follow if you had been…raised in a Muslim family?

I think the Duke and Mr. Why have a point. Enculturation. Mr. Why talks about being taught by culture and the Duke mentions indoctrination from “toddlerhood (or from a time of emotional weakness)”. While they were referring mainly to the erroneous indoctrination en enculturation of Christianity, I realize these processes they are referring to are REAL AND they work both ways.

The Family is the basic cultural unit in any culture. What our parents teach us formulates much of what our future will be like. So I’ve notice from what my friends here have shared with me. Believers and Non-believers in general, not exclusively, are inherently influence by the type of believer or non-believer their parents are. Consider the following:

Marriage, with children and consequent family life, is stimulative of the highest potentials in human nature and simultaneously provides the ideal avenue for the expression of these quickened attributes of mortal personality. The family provides for the biologic perpetuation of the human species. The home is the natural social arena wherein the ethics of blood brotherhood may be grasped by the growing children. The family is the fundamental unit of fraternity in which parents and children learn those lessons of patience, altruism, tolerance, and forbearance which are so essential to the realization of brotherhood among all men.

Family life is the progenitor of true morality, the ancestor of the consciousness of loyalty to duty. The enforced associations of family life stabilize personality and stimulate its growth through the compulsion of necessitous adjustment to other and diverse personalities.

So we both believers and non-believers get this family enculturation, indoctrination and guidence but there's one more thing we get from the most important social unit in ANY Culture:

If parents expose their children to true Faith, they most likely become believers, if exposed to no-faith (religious faith) they most likely become non-believers, if they are exposed to dubious faith, they ,most likely become dubious believers.

McCulloch wrote:

Most believers will admit periods of doubt

My parents did not provide much in the way of religious education. They did not agree with each other on religious matters

So I’ve thought about this. If someone has missed the first stage of spiritual development it’s most likely because they've been led, nurtured and given a parental example into that path.

And as the Duke says:

The other two alleged "stages" are no different from the first.

He’s exactly right IF you haven’t achieved the first stage. It doesn’t matter what age you are at you won’t move on to the next stage until you’ve accomplished the spiritual development of the previous stage. So to the first stager all stages are the First Stage.

So reflecting on these revelations of my atheist friends here, I’m thinking (not they would want too or have any desire too) if they wanted to attempt to achieve the first stage recognition of their Spirituality they would need to have the same kind of TRUST and Conviction as a young child has in the parents and their parents guidance. I don’t really know if that could be achieved. But I do know that some atheists have found Faith and their Spiritual selves. Perhaps if there was a believer here who used to be an atheist they would be willing to share how that change occurred. Anybody know a converted atheist here?

I’d also like to ask McCulloch and Once Convinced if they think their original belief in the existence of God was immutable? Or if they ever felt it was?

Furrowed Brow wrote:

In the last couple of years I have caught up with that friend and have the discussed this period. As a 40 year old looking back he now describes the RE teacher behavior as “predatory”, and I think is slightly embarrassed to recall some of the stuff he use to say,

I see that there was a much deeper delema going for your friend that was affecting him, because of his family trauma‘s . Perhaps today he would be guided into therapy to search for a deeper understanding and resolution to his negative experiences.

Is it possible the RE Teacher sexually abused or molested your friend?

Thank You all again in this personal endeavor of mine to understand atheism from one believer’s perspective.

Good Will and thank you all for your honest and candid sharing. Mr. Why McCulloch and others thanks for juggling your memories for me.

I’m seeing that just like a fetus looks the same up to the point of gender differentiation. So to does it seem that believers and non-believers are the same up to a point of belief differentiation or enculturation. I see you all much more as my brothers and sisters now. Because I see HOW MUCH we really have in common.

Again Good Will and Peace be with you all.

[bernee51]

1. How many didn’t have any parental guidance in Religious Education ? or

2. If you did Have parental Religious guidance where was the disconnect. At the family level, The religious teachers level or some other aspect?

I grew up in a Catholic household. My parents were quite religious with regular prayers at home - rosaries etc. My mother was very active in the church auxiliary. I served at altar until I was 14 years old. I went to catholic schools for my entire education. We had regular retreats at various monasteries engaging in discussion with monks which I found to be stimulating and though provoking.

The 'disconnect' for me was no one thing. It was cumulative. The answers to my many questions provided by my educators and religious mentors were unsatisfactory. They did not fill the 'spiritual' gap in my life. It was not difficult at all to throw of the yoke of theistic religion.