Is belief a choice?

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

[Bust Nak]

What is a choice?

Selecting, picking between different options.

Are choices and decisions not synonyms.

Yes.

Isn't the process of making choice the same as making a decision.

Yes.

So the question of Is belief a choice?, is asking whether or not beliefs are the result of a choice a person has made.

No it is not the same question. Choosing to smoke is not choosing to get lung cancer even if lung cancer is the direct result of smoking.

Is belief = the choices a person makes.
Is belief = the sum of choices a person makes?

No and no.

The answer to both of these is yes.

Well, to repeat what I said earlier, what you are saying here is contrary to what I have experienced and I found it utterly bizarre.

Believe is the result of a choice/decision. In some cases to arrive at belief, multiple decisions must be made. Belief is based on the summation of choices.

I can grant you that much, with the addition that belief are based only indirectly on choices, it's based on experience and choices influences the kind of experiences one has.

For those who argue that belief if not a choice or the result of decisions, please explain
1. What belief is

A claim or proposition that one holds to be true.

2. How does a person arrive at a belief

Depends, different people arrive at different beliefs by different process.

[KingandPriest]

What is a choice?

Selecting, picking between different options.

Are choices and decisions not synonyms.

Yes.

Isn't the process of making choice the same as making a decision.

Yes.

Glad there is some agreement

So the question of Is belief a choice?, is asking whether or not beliefs are the result of a choice a person has made.

No it is not the same question. Choosing to smoke is not choosing to get lung cancer even if lung cancer is the direct result of smoking.

If a person has knowledge that smoking cigarettes can and will lead to lung cancer, if they make a choice to smoke they are making a choice to take on the risk of getting lung cancer. If they get lung cancer, it is a result of the choice they made to take on the risk. The courts and health insurance companies both agree on this. This is why smokers pay higher insurance premiums. The choice to conduct in more risky behavior costs more to insure. Just like a choice to have a trampoline in the backyard will result in a higher home insurance premium. Our choices have benefits and consequences.

You appear to desire the removal of consequences by saying they did not have a choice. The only evidence you try to provide is personal experience, but even in your experience you admit to making decisions.

I on the other hand provide evidence, that you choose to reject to confirm your belief. Your rejection is proof that a person can choose what they believe. Even in the light of evidence, you choose to reject.

Is belief = the choices a person makes.
Is belief = the sum of choices a person makes?

No and no.

Should we take your word for it that the answer is no and no, or do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

The answer to both of these is yes.

Well, to repeat what I said earlier, what you are saying here is contrary to what I have experienced and I found it utterly bizarre.

Bizarre and incorrect are not the same. The truth can often be bizarre.

Believe is the result of a choice/decision. In some cases to arrive at belief, multiple decisions must be made. Belief is based on the summation of choices.

I can grant you that much, with the addition that belief are based only indirectly on choices, it's based on experience and choices influences the kind of experiences one has.

I agree. In addition to choice and experience, both emotions and personality can come into play.

For those who argue that belief if not a choice or the result of decisions, please explain
1. What belief is

A claim or proposition that one holds to be true.

2. How does a person arrive at a belief

Depends, different people arrive at different beliefs by different process.

I agree with both statements you wrote.

[1213]

Because only actions can be chosen.

Believe is also action, mental action.

I choose to believe what the Bible tells, because it is convincing enough for me.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 87 by OnceConvinced]

Please show where neuroscience disagrees with him or backs up any of your arguments.

This was already provided in earlier posts. See Post 83.

For additional support see below

http://library.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/ft/ex ... g_2003.pdf

How does this in any way support your belief that beliefs are a choice? In fact it conflicts with your belief.

It is about reasoning based on what we believe already and how our beliefs can influence our choices and actions. Belief bias they call it.

There is even a line near the end which says:
"Their response is biased by their beliefs"

Thus supporting what we are trying to tell you. Belief is not a choice. It's beliefs (and emotions) that determine your actions and your choices, not the other way around.

http://www.ethics-based-on-science.com/ ... o=away.pdf

I do not have time to read all this. I read some of the highlighted parts though and the theme seemed to be that certain actions can determine changes in your feelings and what parts of the brain are activated. This in no way suggests that belief is a choice. Performing actions certainly is though.

Where in any of this is it even suggested that belief is a choice? From what I am reading there, your document shows the opposite.

It’s quite fascinating that what we are seeing now in single-neuron recordings is not coding for what we see or do—sensory and motor coding—but for the processes involved in how we value and make choices. That’s an important advance in neuroscience. I also think it’s fascinating that, when it comes to decision making, behavior is very adaptive. You can really watch and see how your choice behavior adapts and changes from trial to trial, according to environment and task design, and such changes are reflected in the recorded activity of single neurons.

This is in no way even suggesting that belief is a choice. It is simply saying how our choices can be affected by our environment and how we are feeling. Nothing whatsoever about changing our beliefs. Just a change in our behaviour.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 95 by Bust Nak]

What I claim is that beliefs are based on decisions.

Your links tell us the opposite. The links indicate that the way we are feeling and how our environment effects us can affect our actions and our decisions. They say nothing of affecting our belief system.

That is exactly what this topic is about. The title of this discussion is Is belief a choice?

Are we now changing the subject to what can you choose to believe?

If we go by your logic then we can choose to believe anything including 2+2=5.

The point is when we are faced with facts. Indisputable facts, we can't choose to believe the opposite. If so we would be in denial.

Knowledge trumps belief every time. If we KNOW something to be true we can't just magically change our belief by saying "I'm refusing to believe it's true". Just try it! Look up into sky and try to believe there is no sun there. See if it's as simple as choosing to disbelieve. See if deep down you can convince yourself it's not there.

For those who argue that belief if not a choice or the result of decisions, please explain
1. What belief is

It is something we are taught or convinced of. Whether we have taken someone's word for it, become convinced of it due to reasoning, or have come to a conclusion due to experience and knowledge.

2. How does a person arrive at a belief

See above.

I'll list them again. It could be for either one of these reasons or a mixture of these reasons:

- We were indoctrinated to believe it.
- We were taught to believe it by those more knowledgeable
- We have learnt through experience.
- We have studied and gained knowledge of it.
- Someone has convinced us of it using reasoning and logic.
- We have thought it through using reasoning and logic.
- Emotional reasons.

[OnceConvinced]

If a person has knowledge that smoking cigarettes can and will lead to lung cancer, if they make a choice to smoke they are making a choice to take on the risk of getting lung cancer. If they get lung cancer, it is a result of the choice they made to take on the risk. The courts and health insurance companies both agree on this. This is why smokers pay higher insurance premiums. The choice to conduct in more risky behavior costs more to insure. Just like a choice to have a trampoline in the backyard will result in a higher home insurance premium. Our choices have benefits and consequences.

If someone has knowledge that smoking cigarettes lead to lung cancer can they then choose to believe that smoking cigarettes will NOT lead to lung cancer?

We are talking knowledge here, not a belief. If belief is as simple as a choice, then knowledge can be trumped. But no, it doesn't work that way. What you would have there is denial.

If one knows that smoking causes lung cancer and continues to smoke anyway, that does not mean they suddenly believe that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. Their belief that smoking causes lung cancer still remains.

Whether something has benefit or consequences makes no difference to what you believe. I believe Hell is imaginary. So if it's real then I'm in big trouble. I'm in for some real serious consequences. Yet still, I continue to believe that Hell is imaginary.

I on the other hand provide evidence, that you choose to reject to confirm your belief.

No you haven't. All you have done is provide opinions and links that don't back up those opinions. I cannot possibly reject my own beliefs. I may not like them, but I can't just reject them and believe opposite. My mind is not that fickle.

We have given you numerous examples of how you can't just switch off and on a belief. But you seem to just ignore them.

The most simple one is to climb to the top of a tall building, stand on that edge of the roof and choose to believe you can fly. Then leap! If you can choose to believe you can fly then it should be no problem for you to do that.

Your rejection is proof that a person can choose what they believe. Even in the light of evidence, you choose to reject.

You have not provided any proof at all. Nothing you have said is remotely convincing. We know that we ourselves cannot choose what we want to believe. We know this is an impossibility for us. Our knowledge of that trumps any belief. We could not possibly choose to choose to believe because we know for a fact we can't.

[OnceConvinced]

Because only actions can be chosen.

Believe is also action, mental action.

An action you have no choice in. An involuntary action. Just like breathing or blinking.

I choose to believe what the Bible tells, because it is convincing enough for me.

It convinced you right? Even before you chose to believe what the bible says, you already believed it!

Could you now make a decision to NOT believe the bible? How would you do that? After all you're convinced it's true right? How do you suddenly switch off your belief and go from convinced to no-longer convinced?

I would ask KingandPriest the same question. How do you go from convinced the bible is true to no-longer convinced the bible is true?

because it is convincing enough for me

Wow. You're convinced a human could live inside a giant fish? And that God would send a bear to kill a bunch of kids? Stuff like that?

[Bust Nak]

If a person has knowledge that smoking cigarettes can and will lead to lung cancer, if they make a choice to smoke they are making a choice to take on the risk of getting lung cancer. If they get lung cancer, it is a result of the choice they made to take on the risk. The courts and health insurance companies both agree on this. This is why smokers pay higher insurance premiums. The choice to conduct in more risky behavior costs more to insure. Just like a choice to have a trampoline in the backyard will result in a higher home insurance premium. Our choices have benefits and consequences.

That's irrelevant to what I said. The point was, there are countless examples of how ones actions can place that person in a situation he has no control over.

You appear to desire the removal of consequences by saying they did not have a choice.

Don't know what gave you that impression.

The only evidence you try to provide is personal experience, but even in your experience you admit to making decisions.

Yes, so what exactly?

I on the other hand provide evidence, that you choose to reject to confirm your belief. Your rejection is proof that a person can choose what they believe. Even in the light of evidence, you choose to reject.

Incorrect. My rejection is proof that a person cannot choose what they believe. In the absence of convincing evidence, I had no choice but to reject your claims.

Should we take your word for it that the answer is no and no, or do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

I can do one better - I offered an experiment so you can prove that to yourself. Try believing 2+2=5 and see how well you do.

Not one person I've asked have report any success, and I've challenged many to try.

Believe is also action, mental action.

I choose to believe what the Bible tells, because it is convincing enough for me.

If it is convincing enough for you, then you cannot help but believe what it tells you, you had no choice in the matter. Try believing something that isn't convincing for you, or try disbelieving something that is convincing - that's how you could potentially demonstrate that believe is a mental action. Prove you can choose to believe something.

[Justin108]

Neither of these statements you quoted from me say belief is a decision.

You literally said "a person does choose what they believe in"! How is this not the exact same thing as saying belief is a decision!?

Both statements show that beliefs are the result of decisions.

You said, and I quote, "a person does choose what they believe in". This is not the same as saying "a person's choices influences their beliefs". The two claims are markedly different.

I did not say decision = belief

"a person does choose what they believe in"

choice = belief

At least be honest and admit that you're changing your initial claim

The decision a person has to make is to: decide to accept the claim

In post 89, you stated that "You make a decision which informs or leads to belief."

Explain to me what decision I need to make that will lead to me actually believing the claims of John and Timothy? In post 89, you agreed with me that we cannot directly choose to believe something. All we can do is make decisions which would lead to certain beliefs. So what decisions will I need to make in order to believe the claims made by John and Timothy?

I make the decision to eat a pepper but once I do that, feeling a burning sensation becomes an automatic process. I don't tell my body "ok, now you need to start feeling a burning sensation". My body does this automatically.

Similarly, I make a decision to read the Bible. Once I do that, I don't tell my brain "reject these claims". No, my brain does this part automatically.

Reading the Bible = voluntary
Believing the Bible = involuntary

Now you introduce feelings as support for your claim.

When exactly did I do this?

The response of your tongue to pepper is not a belief. It is a reaction.

Yes. Just like belief. My mind reacts to the evidence presented to me along with my considerations. This results in the forming of a belief. This process is a reaction to evidence

Then you compare a reaction to pepper to a decision to eat pepper.

I'm not comparing them, I'm differentiating them. Eating a pepper is different from reacting to a pepper. Reading the Bible is different to believing the Bible. Considering evidence is different to believing evidence.

Reaction is not the same as belief.

It is to me and many other skeptics

When a person is watching a scary movie, they may react to the movie even thought they know it is not real.

Umm... okay? I don't see your point? I never said every single reaction means you believe in something. I said all belief are reactions, but not all reactions are beliefs.

Furthermore, if you decide to read the bible, your brain does not automatically reject what you have read.

I never said this is immediate. You can consider and contemplate the Bible afterwards. These are voluntary processes. However, whether these considerations and contemplations result in belief is involuntary

You make a decision that what you have read either does not make sense.

"The blueik did bwhoook to the orange is twice"

Okay now read that sentence a few times. Afterwards, I want you to decide that it makes sense. Can you do that for me?

You continue to use the word automatic to describe decisions made in the mind at high speeds.

Please quote me on making this claim

[1213]

Could you now make a decision to NOT believe the bible? How would you do that? After all you're convinced it's true right? How do you suddenly switch off your belief and go from convinced to no-longer convinced?

If for example Bible would say something that I don’t like, I could choose not to believe it. For example, if it would say that it is right to murder, I don’t think I would believe it. Or if I would want something that is against Bible teachings, I probably could decide not to believe it.