Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 88 by ttruscott]

]quote]Christians do not believe HE is a tyrant [/quote] No kiddin'?!?

but a loving Father who keeps us safe for the depredations of the demonic.

Oh and don't forget kills people. He has done that has he not? Drowned them? Destroyed their city? Turned some into salt?? And He also tortures to prove a point like Jonah & Job. No cherry pickin'!

Since we believe we are sinners and addicted to choosing to be sinful,

Unsubstantiated claim. Please provide proof other than the bible that this is true or you will need to withdraw that claim as fact or edit it to show it as an opinion based on nothing other than a story or two writen by men

we enjoy HIS directives to holiness as loving grace and once our free will is returned at the ending of our addiction to evil, we will be under no one's authority, just bonded by loving kindness and a commitment to holiness.

Don't forget those who enjoy his wrath! No cherry pickin'

All those under condemnation claim the judge is a tyrant, eh?

No, just anyone that doesn't fall for the "love lie".

we are all sinners and must be brought to repentance to see HIM as HE really is.

Like a murdering dictator who is smart enough to lead some to their annihilation of this life with the empty promise of 'the next life'. But hey, at least He's smart enough to know there are still those types of people around! Gotta give Him credit for that!

[ttruscott]

...

Again you miss the point. THE BIBLE TEACHES NOTHING. It's just a book. YOU, the reader, accepts what is written.

...

You do understand the process of teaching and of learning? Some thing is presented that is new and it is accepted as new knowledge? If you learn something new it does not matter where you learned it, you were taught it from that source.

It makes conversation very hard if you change the ordinary meaning of things to make spurious claims about someone. I learned from the Bible things about God just as I am learning from what you write things about you.

If something that is JUST WRITTEN can't teach me anything, why are you bothering with all this writing and exhortation !! if you do not want to teach me something!!! Or are you making a special case that your writing is teaching but not the Bible's since it is just a book and teaches nothing (in capitals, no less) and your writing is just something much more special?

<facepalm>

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

no one has taught you about remote viewing or alien abduction?

How do you knon no one has?

...

Excuse me but you misread again...can you not see the ? or do you reject its meaning to keep up a false attack?

I asked if you had never been taught anything about your claims to point out that even if you learned these things from a mental implant by an alien itself, YOU LEARNED THEM FROM SOMEWHERE and then followed them! That is the point in contra point to your claim you are not a follower but an initiator (look it up):

Wrong. There is no understanding, but accepting without proof. Followers are quick to accept what they're told. I'm not a follower luckily enough.

We've met before, haven't we...

peace, Ted

[Zzyzx]

.

If something that is JUST WRITTEN can't teach me anything, why are you bothering with all this writing and exhortation !! if you do not want to teach me something!!!

In my way of thinking you (generic term) are insignificant. I present ideas for READERS to consider, evaluate and compare to religious pontifications.

Or are you making a special case that your writing is teaching but not the Bible's since it is just a book and teaches nothing (in capitals, no less) and your writing is just something much more special?

I, for one, do not aspire to "teach" anything, but rather to present ideas for consideration by others. If they find something useful, fine. If they do not, fine. It makes no difference to me.

However, feedback indicates that many people appreciate reading ideas that conflict with religious propaganda that permeates much of society.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 97 by ttruscott]

I don't think your position is unclear. I find you for the most part to be a very civil person, even if your position on some matters can give off the appearance of incivility. I think the problem that some have when you enter the fray of the debate arena and given that you by your own admission know that none of what you say can be proven but must simply just be accepted on faith. Is that your position hinges on your claims of which cannot be proven.

It is like me arguing this


Y=4
X=?

Y ≠ X

2+2=X because I believe in X. 2+2≠Y because I believe in X.

Frankly it is tantamount to preaching since

A. your claims are unsupported or you refuse to support them
B. your claims can't be debated
C. its circular, your claims are true because you believe them and you believe them because they are true.
D. This claim is not made once in the bible it is inferred. It is not specifically spelled out anywhere. To me it appears this claim originated to resolve the paradox of suffering. However, this simply just creates another paradox in of itself.


I don't find you rude and I rather enjoy your points of view I find them interesting in of themselves. I just don't see how they can be debated or anyone can have a debate with you about them.

[ThePainefulTruth]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

I'm not a Christian (i.e. an advocate of Paul's divine Jesus), but I do believe that Jesus and John the Baptist were right when they called people to repent. Repent of what and why you ask? If you have no regrets for the way you may have treated other people (do you), and if there is no hereafter where you review your life under the spotlight of Truth, then hell, you're good to go--no salvation required. No need to even ax the question.

[Zzyzx]

.
A thought:

"Salvation" could be alleviation of FEAR -- fear of death and fear of punishment in a proposed "afterlife."

Fear of death may be natural and a human characteristic.

Fear of punishment in an "afterlife" is artificial and is promoted by religion. It cannot be shown to be anything more than imaginary.

[ThePainefulTruth]

.
A thought:

"Salvation" could be alleviation of FEAR -- fear of death and fear of punishment in a proposed "afterlife."

Fear of death may be natural and a human characteristic.

Fear of punishment in an "afterlife" is artificial and is promoted by religion. It cannot be shown to be anything more than imaginary.

True, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. And salvation, IMHO, is an alleviation from guilt.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 105 by Zzyzx]

A belief in punishment in the afterlife comes from hope for justice.

However most people die who hope for justice expect the injustices done to them to be dealt with and not their own injustices.

Jesus is the one that puts it most plainly that we should not be so sure that a just God won't deal with us as well.

And that is why you argue as you do. Once we believed that the bar was at a level everyone could reach but post Jesus the realization is that none are just.

But the hope for hell is my hope for justice and not from fear.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 106 by ThePainefulTruth]

Do we feel guilty because we are or because we are told to?