Bible is sufficient evidence of God

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KingandPriest
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Bible is sufficient evidence of God

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Post by KingandPriest »

In a separate discussion, the question arose about the validity of the bible in supporting the existence of God. I wrote about knowing that God created the physical world we live in today. In response, this question was offered:
DanieltheDragon wrote:
Feeling something is true and believing something is true is still different then knowing something is true. The only evidence that "God" created everything is in a storybook. On what basis do we know this storybook is true?
[center]
PART I - Non empirical evidence that supports the validity of the bible[/center]

We can determine the bible is true based on the available evidence to support it. As mentioned in the OP, there are currently 15 types of evidence we humans use to test the validity of any claim. These are:
Testimonial evidence
Statistical / Mathematical evidence
Presumptive evidence
Hearsay evidence
Documentation evidence
Demonstrative evidence
Circumstantial evidence
Character evidence
Analogical evidence
Anecdotal evidence
Physical evidence
Digital evidence
Direct evidence
Exculpatory evidence
Forensic evidence


So lets look at all 15 that support the bible:

Testimonial evidence
We can look at the recorded testimonial evidence present within the 4 gospels to ascertain if these events align with the pattern of known testimonial evidence. Two people can look at the same event, or even the same historical character, and NOT agree about what they have seen. Many years ago President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, and the entire event was captured on video tape. There were hundreds of eyewitnesses to that event. The tapes were watched over and over again. Yet, in the midst of such a deep eyewitness account, people still argue to this day about what they saw and what actually happened. Some argue that the video clearly indicates that there was a lone assassin. Others argue that the video images clearly prove that there was more than one shooter and therefore must have been a conspiracy.

Something very similar occurred in recent years when the World Trade Center was attacked by Islamic Terrorists. Most of us either saw the attack live on television or watched the video for months afterward. But the event is still interpreted in a variety of ways. Some believe that the evidence clearly indicates that terrorists conceived and executed the attack, while a growing number of conspiracy theorists believe that the video shows a number of explosive events just prior to the impact of the jets, and they have constructed an elaborate conspiracy theory to explain how the disaster was NOT the work of terrorists but actually a plot on the part of the government! Two historical events. Both very well documented. But, both interpreted differently.

When analyzing texts which claim to be eye witness testimony, one thing investigators look for is collusion. A former atheist criminal investigator applied his skills as an investigator to the 4 gospels and reached the conclusion that they are witness accounts. He wrote:
The most reasonable inference is that the gospel writers were present, corroborated,
accurate, and unbiased. If this is the case, we can conclude with confidence that their testimony is reliable.
page 252 http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Chri ... ianity.pdf

Rather than restate all of the evidence supporting the testimonial evidence of the 4 gospels, you can click on the link above and read for yourself.

Statistical / Mathematical evidence
There is overwhelming statistical evidence that supports the prophecies in the bible. Because the evidence is so overwhelming, some try to assert that the only way these prophecies were correct is that they were written after the fact. To combat this, I will point to one specific prophecy that no one has been able ot refute as an after the fact prophecy. Due to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (henceforth called DSS), we have evidence that the old testament has remained basically untouched since at least 400-200BC. In the book of Daniel chapter 9, a prophecy was made that included the description of a series of events which needed to occur within a specific period of time. We know based on extra biblical record of the Babylonians and Persians, that the Israelites were held in captivity. Daniel 9:24-26 states
24 Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city,to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
This prophecy basically outlines that the Messiah will be (i)born and die within a the span of 483 years of the date a decree is given to allow Jerusalem to be rebuilt, (ii) the same people who 'cut off' (or killed) the Messiah would also destroy the city and temple in Jerusalem,
(iii) sin would be atoned for
(iv) make everlasting righteousness available to everyone

Combing the odds of these events taking place within the alloted time frame yields:
The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah (population estimates based on prb.org data) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×10^-5.
One man in how many, claiming to be the messiah, born within a specific 483-year time period: 1 in 10,000 or 1×10^-4
One set of people or government in how many who will kill a religious figure, and then destroy the religious epicenter of a religion: 1 in 100 or 1x10^-2
One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
About 10,000 estimated crucifixions(about 6000 alone from the Spartacus revolt) divided by 10,000,000 capital executions worldwide = 10K / 10M or 1×10^-4
Probability of atoning for sin equates to the probability of one person in total human population at that time who lived a life without sin, and could exchange their righteousness for the sin of others: 1 in 300,000,000 or 0.3x10^-9

Just combining these 5, we arrive at an astounding unlikely probability of 0.84×10^-24 of all these prophesied events coming to pass as recorded in the Book of Daniel. The probability of any one of these events occuring at all would require a great deal of chance, but for them all to coincide is near mathematical impossibility. That’s 0.84 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Please remember this is 1, out of the over 300 prophecies about the messiah which are in the bible.

Another way of stating this is that a Christian can assert with great confidence that the old testament spoke about Jesus at least 200-400 years before he was born, and described events in his life in detail with only a 0.0000000000000000000000000084 probability of getting those details correct. There is no other book in history which has even come close to performing this level of prophecy. Adding additional biblical prophecies gives readers of the bible even more mathematical evidence to have confidence in the books of the bible.

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Article ... Earth.aspx

Hearsay evidence
Hearsay evidence is one of the easiest type of evidence to find, but also one of the least trustworthy as it is difficult to independently verify. As such, I will list a few sources of hearsay evidence and then move on.

http://www.oddee.com/item_98653.aspx
http://www.godisreal.today/modern-day-miracles/


Documentation evidence
Keep in mind that it would be amazing if there was an ancient record of Jesus outside of the Bible. Jesus lived over 2000 years ago. He is an ANCIENT figure from history, and there are some things that we need to remember about historical figures and events from this period of time:
  • 1. There are amazingly few manuscripts of ANY text written during Jesus’ time
    2. Historians of this period wrote amazingly little about religious figures anyway
    3. Jesus was active for an amazingly short period of time (just three years)
    4. Jesus ministered in an amazingly remote corner of the Roman Empire
Now, given that these facts are true about the life of Jesus and the people who were recording history two thousand years ago, it would be surprising to find much ancient material related to Jesus at all. But, there ARE a number of ancient non-biblical records that tell of Jesus! There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan Greek sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity and try to explain away the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events that surrounded his life.

Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.� (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we would see that every aspect of Jesus’ life could be verified with a non-biblical source. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, he was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of his crucifixion.

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.�

This EARLY description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed that Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers et regularly to worship Jesus.

Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).� (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.� (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this very EARLY account, we know that Jesus had an immediate impact on his followers. They believed that Jesus was God enough to withstand the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on his followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.�

In this account, Tacitus confirms for us that Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King�:

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.�

From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus. We can conclude that Jesus was a wise and influential man who died for his beliefs. We can also conclude that his followers adopted these beliefs and lived lives that reflected them to the world in which they lived.

Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.� (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.� (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … � (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)


“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.� (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

From these accounts, we can add something to our understand of Jesus and conclude that Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated his wounds after he was resurrected!

Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.� (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

From this account we can add to our description and conclude that Jesus taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.

Celsus (175AD)
This is the last hostile ‘pagan’ account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite hostile to the Gospels, but in his criticism, he unknowingly affirms and reinforces the authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century! Here is a portion of his text:

“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.�

Celsus admits that Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues that this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea that he was a bastard son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm that Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.

There is also Hostile Jewish records which I will list by name only to conserve space:
Josephus (37-101AD)
Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)

Presumptive evidence
Presumption is a normal part of any logical excercise. We presume certain facts by perceiving their existence from other evidence. The argument of an intelligent designer is one of the most fundamental presumptive evidences used by the bible. There are specific passages that point to the complexity of creation to presume that God must have created what we observe and experience.

By contrast, those who support the theory of evolution typically point to the existence of homologous structures among different animal types. In essence, some non-theist propose that an infinently wise creator would not have used the same structural disign to create arms, wings, frog legs, etc. It is presumed that the evidence of homologous structures proves that a creator does not exist or is not infinently intelligent.

Back to the bible. The bible presumes humans have immaterial soul/spirit and a physical body. In the new testament, one of the gifts promised to believers is the gift of speaking in tongues. This gift is described as the Holy Spirit of God praying through a believer in unknown languages or through groans and utterances which cannot be understood (except by God himself). To test this claim against other forms of prayer, the Myrna Center for Integrative Medicine completed one of the most compelling studies to investigate the claims of Christians in comparison to other religions and prayer.

The study focused on meditation, prayer and a specific type of prayer which has been claimed by Christians to be entirely spiritual, speaking in tongues. One would expect that prayer requires a person to use both the frontal and inferior parietal lobes of their brain, the same area that is used during human concentration and communication, to be active during meditation and prayer. The results of the study is shown below:
To look at neurophysiology of religious and spiritual practices, we used brain imaging technology called Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT), which allows us to measure blood flow. The more blood flow a brain area has, the more active it is. When we scanned the brains of Tibetan Buddhist meditators, we found decreased activity in the superior parietal lobe during meditation. This area of the brain is responsible for giving us a sense of our orientation in space and time. We hypothesize that blocking a sensory and cognitive input into this area during meditation is associated with the sense of no space and no time that is so often described in meditation. The front part of the brain, which is involved in focusing attention and concentration, was more active during meditation. This makes sense since meditation requires a high degree of concentration. We also found that the more activity increased in the frontal lobe, the more activity decreased in the parietal lobe.

When we looked at the brains of Franciscan nuns in prayer, we found increased activity in the frontal lobes (same as Buddhists), but also increased activity in the inferior parietal lobe (the language area). This finding makes sense in relation to the nuns doing a verbally based practice (prayer) rather than visualization (meditation). The nuns like the Buddhists, also showed decreased activity in the superior parietal lobe.

We also looked at the brain of a long-term meditator who was also an atheist. We scanned the person at rest and while meditating on the concept of God. The results showed that there were no significant increase in the frontal lobes as with other meditation practices The implication is that the individual was not able to activate the structures usually found in meditation when he was focusing on a concept that he did not believe in.

In addition we looked at the images of five individuals who claim to pray with their spirit by a phenomenon known to Christians as speaking in tongues. In contrast to the Buddhist, nuns and atheist, the individuals who prayed while speaking in tongues had little to no activity in the frontal and parietal lobes. The individuals were not in a trance-like state as the regions involved in maintaining self-consciousness were still active, but it was unclear which region was driving the behavior. Our finding of decreased activity in the frontal lobes during the practice of speaking in tongues is fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak. Our brain imaging research shows us that these subjects are not in control of the usual language centers during this activity, which is consistent with their description of a lack of intentional control while speaking in tongues.
http://www.andrewnewberg.com/research/

Principal Investigator Dr. Newberg went on to state of the study:
These findings could be interpreted as the subject’s sense of self being taken over by something else. We, scientifically, assume it’s being taken over by another part of the brain, but we couldn’t see, in this imaging study, where this took place. We believe this is the first scientific imaging study evaluating changes in cerebral activity -- looking at what actually happens to the brain -- when someone is speaking in tongues. This study also showed a number of other changes in the brain, including those areas involved in emotions and establishing our sense of self.
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Rel ... olalia.htm

The study concluded with an affirmation that it was the immaterial part of the mind which directed the activity of speaking in tongues (glossolalia). Newberg concludes that the changes in the brain during speaking in tongues reflect a complex pattern of brain activity caused by immaterial invisible phenomenon.

Once again, the soul is defined as the immaterial part of a human being. This study provided credible, verifiable evidence that interaction takes place between the immaterial part of the mind, and the physical brain.

Feel free to check out the actual research in the links below. (Source #4 will require purchase, as this is where the core research is presented.)

Sources
1. http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-i ... n-of-theor...
2. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/healt ... .html?_r=0
3. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... ing_in_ton...
4. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2706001211
5. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 07751ee211
dd/c,zxxZ

Demonstrative evidence
Here are a few links of Christians today demonstrating the tasks specifically demonstrating the power of God to "work" miracles by the authority of Jesus.







There is also the well documented miracles of spontaneous remission of certain types of cancer.
The spontaneous healing of cancer is a phenomenon that has been observed for hundreds and thousands of years and after having been the subject of many controversies, it is now accepted as an indisputable fact.
...
Cancer therapies have been standardized and have improved since Coley's day, but surprisingly modern cancer patients do not fare better than patients treated 50 or more years ago as concluded by researchers in 1999.
...
The standard definition of spontaneous regression as “the partial or complete disappearance of a malignant tumor in the absence of treatment or in the presence of therapy considered inadequate to exert a significant influence on the disease.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312698/


There are also cases of non-medical miracles like those which were evidenced in the life of George Muller. This man put faith to the test by building multiple orphanages without asking other people for anything. He would on his faith in God.
Through all this, Müller never made requests for financial support, nor did he go into debt, even though the five homes cost over £100,000 to build. Many times, he received unsolicited food donations only hours before they were needed to feed the children, further strengthening his faith in God. For example, on one well-documented occasion, they gave thanks for breakfast when all the children were sitting at the table, even though there was nothing to eat in the house. As they finished praying, the baker knocked on the door with sufficient fresh bread to feed everyone, and the milkman gave them plenty of fresh milk because his cart broke down in front of the orphanage.
...
Müller prayed about everything and expected each prayer to be answered. One example was when one of the orphan house's boiler stopped working; Müller needed to have it fixed. This was a problem, because the boiler was bricked up and the weather was worsening with each day. So he prayed for two things; firstly that the workers he had hired would have a mind to work throughout the night, and secondly that the weather would let up. On the Tuesday before the work was due to commence, a bitter north wind still blew but in the morning, before the workmen arrived, a southerly wind began to blow and it was so mild that no fires were needed to heat the buildings. That evening, the foreman of the contracted company attended the site to see how he might speed things along, and instructed the men to report back first thing in the morning to make an early resumption of work. The team leader stated that they would prefer to work through the night. The job was done in 30 hours.
In 1862, it was discovered that one of the drains was blocked. Being some 11 feet underground, workmen were unable to find the blockage despite several attempts. Müller prayed about the situation and the workmen at once found the site of the problem.
Strong gales in Bristol on Saturday 14 January 1865 caused considerable damage in the area and over twenty holes were opened in the roofs. Around 20 windows were also broken and two frames damaged by falling slates. The glazier and slater normally employed had already committed their staff to other work so nothing could be done until the Monday. Had the winds continued, with heavy rain, the damage to the orphanage would have been much greater. After much prayer, the wind stopped in the afternoon and no rain fell until Wednesday, by which time most of the damage had been repaired.
Once, while crossing the Atlantic on the SS Sardinian in August 1877, his ship ran into thick fog. He explained to the captain that he needed to be in Quebec by the following afternoon, but Captain Joseph E. Dutton (later known as "Holy Joe") said that he was slowing the ship down for safety and Müller's appointment would have to be missed. Müller asked to use the chartroom to pray for the lifting of the fog. The captain followed him down, claiming it would be a waste of time. After Müller prayed, the captain started to pray, but Müller stopped him; partly because of the captain's unbelief, but mainly because he believed the prayer had already been answered. When the two men went back to the bridge, they found the fog had lifted. The captain became a Christian shortly afterwards.
Müller's faith in God strengthened day by day and he spent hours in daily prayer and Bible reading. Indeed, it was his practice, in later years, to read through the entire Bible four times a year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller

These are direct and well documented instances of God demonstrating His power in the world.

Circumstantial evidence
Circumstantial evidence is cumulative in nature; they usually are built with a number of evidences. The power of these kinds of evidences increases when more and more of these evidences point to a single cause or character. Eventually with enough circumstantial evidence, it can be overwhelming to refute and it becomes harder and harder to explain how ALL these individual circumstantial pieces could all point to the same cause.

If we were to treat Christianity like any other case where circumstantial evidence was being presented we would expect the case to be comprehensive and cumulative. There are MANY items of evidence that must be considered and they cannot be considered in isolation from one another. The strength of the case for the Christian Worldview comes from the cumulative depth of the evidence.
  • The Case for the Existence of the Soul is Strong Circumstantial Evidence that the Spiritual Realm Exists
    The Case From Public Vs. Private Properties
    -Physical Properties Can Be PUBLICLY Known
    -Mental Properties Are Only PRIVATELY Known
    -THEREFORE: Mental Properties Are NOT Physical Properties
    The Case From First Person Reality
    -Like Everyone, I Only Use First Person Possessive Pronouns to Indicate Possession of Something Other Than “Me�
    -Like Everyone, I Commonly Use First Person Possessive Pronouns When Describing My Body
    -THEREFORE: My Body Is Something Other Than “Me�
    The Case From Measurability
    Physical Entities Can Be Measured Using Physical Measurement Instruments
    But As Humans, We Possess Mental Entities (Thoughts, Wills, Desires and Sensations) That Are Not Measurable By These Methods
    THEREFORE: Humans Are More Than Physical Beings
    The Case From Self Existence
    Mind Body Dualism
    Mental Entities Are Not Self Existent
    But Our Brains, As Physical Entities, ARE Self Existent
    THEREFORE: Our Brains Are NOT The Same As Our Minds
    The Case From Free Agency
    No Physical System is a Free Agent
    Therefore No Physical System Has Moral Responsibility
    Human Beings DO Have Moral Responsibility
    THEREFORE: Therefore Human Beings Are NOT Simply Physical Systems
We can make reasonable deductions and inferences from the many arguments and evidences that are presented, just as a jury does when it deliberates on a case. Our case is further strengthened by the fact that there are so many different lines of evidence, crossing over a variety of disciplines, and all leading to the same conclusion. The case for the Christian Worldview becomes strong as we consider the TOTALITY of the evidence before us. While each individual piece of evidence is compelling in its own right (and, in fact, many people have been convinced by the singular arguments) the case becomes overwhelming when considered in totality.

Christianity is either FALSE, but lucky enough to be consistent with the circumstantial evidence we have listed, or it is TRUE and cannot help but be authenticated by this evidence.

Character evidence

Character evidence is important to all claims of supporting evidence to validate a claim. A person who lacks credibility is less likely to be able to substantiate or support a claim, than one with no credibility. I could point to the countless number of well respected Christian scholars who have performed thorough and unbiased research to support the claims in the bible, but instead, I feel it would be better to list former athiests.

Who better to offer as a credible witness than a person who once lacked belief in God, and through investigation of actual evidence realized there was overwhelming evidence to support God's existence. To that end, I now include links to various statements made by former non-theists who now affirm not only the existence of God, but conclude that the bible is the best and most reliable source for evidence. Reasonable atheists eventually become theists because they are reasonable; and furthermore, because they are honest. They are willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads; and in many cases the evidence comes to the atheist most coherently and well-presented through the writings of believers in God.
But if God is goodness personified and therefore, as our Creator, the divine source of all that is good, true and beautiful, why is there so much evil and suffering? What has gone wrong? The Christian answer to that question, Lewis argues, is that our world has been damaged by rebellion against God. An originally good creation has been spoiled.

If you find this hard to believe, consider the evidence. Look at all the many examples there are of benevolent and intricate design in Nature: the nest-building instincts of birds, the incredibly complex structure of the human brain, the navigational systems of bats and whales, the biological software of DNA in every cell of our bodies, sexual reproduction, etc. All this exists side by side with harmful viruses, disease and death. Can its obvious implications be ignored? Consider, too, the significance of the fact that human beings possess an inner moral code they cannot get rid of yet seem unable to obey. Does all this not suggest some process of deterioration from hopeful beginnings? Is it not also significant that many ancient peoples and cultures, including the Chinese, have some tradition of a lost Paradise in the dim and distant past?
http://www.bethinking.org/is-christiani ... al-journey

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html

https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/bl ... tors/4729/

In addition, there are lists of well known former non-theists who would also place their reputaion on the line by coming to knowledge and acceptance of Christ based on evidence. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _nontheism

Analogical evidence
Analogies are mainly useful when dealing with a topic that is under-researched. If you are on the cutting edge of an issue, you’re the person breaking new ground. When you don’t have statistics to refer to or other authorities on the matter to quote, you have to get your evidence from somewhere. Analogical evidence steps in to save the day.

We know the bible is full of analogies (especially farming analogies) to help explain concepts which were difficicult for people to understand. Understanding God and the supernatural realm is rather difficult because we cannot study them by observation in an empirical manner, like we can study the stars in the night sky. The main emphasis of analogies are the things which they are compared to. If we understand the object of comparison, we can better understand the original concept.

The analogy of faith is not the principle that Scripture interprets Scripture, but that all Scripture is in agreement and will not contradict itself. It assumes the unity and harmony of teaching throughout the Bible. In other words, when multiple passages say something about a topic (either explicitly or implicitly), then what those passages say about that topic will be consistent and will not be contradictory. For example, Psalm34:15 speaks of God having eyes and ears, whereas John4:24 says God is spirit. The analogy of faith means that these passages are not contradictory, as they might appear at first glance. We can reconcile them when we recognize that in Psalm34:15 the author is using a figure of speech and is not asserting that God has literal, physical eyes and ears. He is asserting, rather, that God watches over His people and hears their cries for help; whereas in John4:24 Jesus is asserting that God is not a physical being, therefore, the physical location of His worshipers is not what is most important to Him. The analogy of faith forces us to dig further to understand how passages that appear to be contradictory should be understood.

No single statement or obscure passage of one book can be allowed to set aside a doctrine which is clearly established by many passages. The obscure texts must be interpreted in the light of those which are plain and positive.�2 When a particular passage is unclear to us, we can and should go to other passages that address the same topic more clearly in order to help us understand the unclear passage.

Anecdotal evidence
Often dismissed as untrustworthy and meaningless, anecdotal evidence is one of the more underutilized types of evidence. Anecdotal evidence is evidence that is based on a person’s observations of the world. It can actually be very useful for disproving generalizations because all you need is one example that contradicts a claim. One can use this type of evidence to support claims, though, if you use it in conjunction with other types of evidence. Personal observations can serve as wonderful examples to introduce a topic and build it up. Anectdotal evidence is usually useful to disprove negative statements or statements of non-existence.

Countless stories could be cited of diseases cured, supernatural revelation, repentance and forgiveness granted, relationships restored, hungry children fed, bills paid and lives and souls saved through the efficacy of prayer. There is plenty of evidence that God answers prayer. Most of the evidence is anecdotal and personal, however, and that bothers many who think of “evidence� only as that which is observable, measureable, and reproducible.

The accumulation of anecdotal evidence which matches what the bible declares one should experience supports its efficacy.

Scripture clearly teaches that prayers are answered. James 5:16 states that “the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.� Jesus taught His disciples that “if you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you� (John 15:7). First John 3:22 echoes this truth, saying that we “receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.�

Scripture, moreover, is replete with stories of answered prayer. Elijah’s prayer for fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:12), Hezekiah’s prayer for deliverance (2 Kings 19:19), and the apostles’ prayer for boldness (Acts 4:29) are just three examples. Since these accounts were written by eyewitnesses to the events, they constitute clear evidence of answered prayer. One might, of course, counter that Scripture does not present observable evidence in the “scientific� sense. However, no statement of Scripture has ever been conclusively disproved, so there is no reason to doubt its testimony. In fact, labeling some kinds of evidence as “scientific� and other kinds as “non-scientific� is a fuzzy and artificial distinction at best. Such a distinction can only be made a priori, i.e., prior to the evaluation of the data. In other words, the choice to evaluate the efficacy of prayer only in light of observable evidence is not a choice motivated by the data but by prior philosophical commitments. When this arbitrary restriction is relaxed, the biblical data speaks clearly for itself.

Even most atheists admit that Christians have and present anecdotal evidence consistently. As stated above, relying solely on anecdotal evidence can lead to errors, so we should combine anecdotal evidence with other evidence to substantiate a claim.

~~~~~
In addition to non-empirical evidence, there is also empirical evidence to support some of the biblical events and claims.

What would happen if we attempted to duplicate this procedure, and create a new bible today? Select 40 men and women from across different cultures, of different ages, levels of education and position. Isolate them from one another and ask them to write a book on a list of topics similar to the one listed above. Ask them to predict future events, and interpret history in light of their doctrinal assertions. What would be the outcome?

Can any other text attempting to describe and validate God's existence provide such evidence in such a comprehensive manner?

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Post #101

Post by KingandPriest »

[Replying to post 97 by Zzyzx]
ZZyzx wrote:Thank you for supplying readers with a religious perspective on these matters to compare with a non-religious perspective.

Those who read with comprehension realize that I say and imply no such thing.

To simplify in the extreme, people who directly and personally experience the effects of an earthquake have 'observed empirically'. If they then tell others what they experienced those others have NOT 'observed empirically' but have second-hand information which may or may not be reliable.
So you are in agreement with what I wrote in post 92, where I referenced the following
Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. This data is recorded and analyzed by scientists. This is the primary source of empirical evidence. Secondary sources describe, discuss, interpret, comment upon, analyze, evaluate, summarize, and process primary sources. Secondary source materials can be articles in newspapers or popular magazines, book or movie reviews, or articles found in scholarly journals that discuss or evaluate someone else's original research or observation.
The testimony is a secondary source. I never claimed the testimony was empirical evidence, but the observation was empirical.
ZZyzx wrote:Could someone make up a story about experiencing an earthquake when they had not?
Yes someone could.
ZZyzx wrote:If a person says that an earthquake occurred in California at a specific time and place but seismographs do not record any such event, do reasoning people believe the testimonial or the seismograph records?
If it is the testimony of a single person, it may be reasonable to doubt. If it is the testimony of a large group of persons who all live in the same area, and seismographs have no data, it is just as likely the seismographs missed it or were not operating correctly at the time.

There are additional things to consider beyond just rejecting the claim of a person who asserts to have observed an earthquake. You act as though objects created by humans are known to be error free and never produce inaccurate results.
ZZyzx wrote:
KingandPriest wrote:So what ever cannot be verified independently should be considered doubtful?
Exactly.
Noted.
ZZyzx wrote:
KingandPriest wrote:So we should doubt the scientific explanation for the formation of our solar system, planet formation, evolution, composition of the earths core, etc. After all, we don't have a time machine to be able to independently verify these theorized explanations. Just because they make sense to us today, does not mean we can verify with absolute certainty these explanations are correct.
Exactly. We cannot verify with absolute certainty how the Earth / Solar System / Universe developed. We CAN attempt to learn such things, but we would be ill advised to claim absolute certainty.
Noted.
ZZyzx wrote:I accept the THEORY that the Earth's core is primarily composed of iron and nickel. I do not claim absolute knowledge. I taught geology at university level and am quite well aware of evidences upon which the theory is based.
I remembered that you were a geology professor from a separate thread which is why I wrote the question about something I knew you would have a vast amount of knowledge on.

So even though you agreed above that "whatever cannot be verified independently should be considered doubtful", you write hear that you accept a theory which cannot be verified independently.

The theory itself cannot be independently verified. Though there is evidence which corroborates the theory might be right, it is not deemed a verification of the theory. Shouldn't you have the same doubts?

After all, is the theory of the composition of the earths core the only theory which the evidence you rely on supports?
Can that same evidence be used to affirm other theories?
ZZyxz wrote:Only with a rather warped 'interpretation' of what I actually say.


I would like to apologize for misinterpreting what you said. I only have the words on the screen as my guide. After rereading your statement, I see that you were discussing what an individual who is alive today could do, but based on theme of your response, I felt you may have also been making a claim that seismographs were the only means by which a person can determine whether an earthquake took place.

Now you see how easy it is for people to misinterpret what was written. Hopefully this will serve as an example for some of the non-theists on this forum who misinterpret and misrepresent what people wrote or what is written in the bible.

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Post #102

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 99 by KingandPriest]




[center]
The reliability of hearsay evidence
Part Three: Looks like a pretty simple question to answer to me... [/center]


KingandPriest wrote:
Hopefully this will serve as an example for some of the non-theists on this forum who misinterpret and misrepresent what people wrote or what is written in the bible.
I've asked you for your opinion concerning hearsay evidence twice now, and you haven't yet answered it. Maybe you missed those posts. So, I will ask you again:

____________

Question:
  • How reliable is hearsay evidence, in your opinion?
____________


:smileright: :smileleft:

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Post #103

Post by KingandPriest »

[Replying to post 100 by Blastcat]

The answer to your question can be found in the OP.

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Post #104

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 101 by KingandPriest]


[center]
The reliability of hearsay evidence
Part Four: Being able to type a non-answer but not the actual answer[/center]



KingandPriest wrote:
The answer to your question can be found in the OP.

Could be so kind as to answer my rather simple question with a direct answer?
It seems important to me for some reason.

All I ask for is your estimation of the reliability of hearsay evidence. Put it on a scale of 0 to 10... maybe. 0 would be completely unreliable, and 10 would be complete reliable.. something like that.

I will ask you once again, because from where I sit, you seem to be contradicting yourself about hearsay evidence. I would like you to ON the record, for once, and that, very CLEARLY for everyone to see. Who knows? You might have changed your mind.

I'm thinking that now you are taking hearsay evidence for earthquakes as reliable... So, could you set the record straight?, Or do you want to avoid answering again?

____________

Question:
  • How reliable is hearsay evidence, in your opinion?
____________



:smileright: :smileleft:

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Post #105

Post by KingandPriest »

Blastcat wrote: [Replying to post 101 by KingandPriest]

KingandPriest wrote:
The answer to your question can be found in the OP.

Could be so kind as to answer my rather simple question with a direct answer?
It seems important to me for some reason.

All I ask for is your estimation of the reliability of hearsay evidence. Put it on a scale of 0 to 10... maybe. 0 would be completely unreliable, and 10 would be complete reliable.. something like that.

I will ask you once again, because from where I sit, you seem to be contradicting yourself about hearsay evidence. I would like you to ON the record, for once, and that, very CLEARLY for everyone to see. Who knows? You might have changed your mind.

I'm thinking that now you are taking hearsay evidence for earthquakes as reliable... So, could you set the record straight?, Or do you want to avoid answering again?

____________

Question:
  • How reliable is hearsay evidence, in your opinion?
____________



:smileright: :smileleft:
I hesitated on responding because I did not want to be an enabler by doing the work for you, but I wanted to see where you were going with your responses, so I will be nice.

I wrote this about hearsay evidence:
Hearsay evidence is one of the easiest type of evidence to find, but also one of the least trustworthy as it is difficult to independently verify.

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Post #106

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 103 by KingandPriest]




[center]
The reliability of hearsay evidence
Part Five: Where is Blastcat going with this?[/center]


Blastcat wrote: ____________

Question:
  • How reliable is hearsay evidence, in your opinion?
____________
KingandPriest wrote:
I hesitated on responding because I did not want to be an enabler by doing the work for you, but I wanted to see where you were going with your responses,
Maybe you don't agree with this theory, but this is how I see the "job" of communication:

Someone asks a question and someone answers it and vice versa.
Call answering questions "enabling communication", if you want.

I'm good with that.
Enable away.

KingandPriest wrote:
so I will be nice.
By all means, enable niceness, but I'd much rather that you enable "clarity" if at all possible, too.

KingandPriest wrote:
I wrote this about hearsay evidence:
Hearsay evidence is one of the easiest type of evidence to find, but also one of the least trustworthy as it is difficult to independently verify.
You did write that, and I know, because I checked from the very start of this thread. Oddly enough, I do read OPs, even yours.

I want to know if you still stand by that statement.

I still have to guess if you stand by the statement that hearsay evidence is the least trustworthy kind of evidence there is.

As to where I'm going with this.. you might want to look at my previous posts.. I think it's in there somewhere but i wouldn't want to enable you by doing "your work", I suppose.

I'm just joking, of course.
I would never debate like that.

What an odd way of communication that is... but if one likes to be as vague as possible, I guess that might be a good choice.

It's not mine.

Where I'm "going with this" was rather clearly stated in Post 102:

"I will ask you once again, because from where I sit, you seem to be contradicting yourself about hearsay evidence. I would like you to ON the record, for once, and that, very CLEARLY for everyone to see. Who knows? You might have changed your mind. "

So, I will now GUESS that you haven't changed your mind... ( yeah, I really do love to play pretend ) and that means that I RISK wasting our precious TIME.

So, I will take that you STILL hold that hearsay evidence is untrustworthy. IF somehow, I am wrong, PLEASE bother to correct me. I don't like wasting anyone's time. DEAL?

_______________

Now, what about my problem trying to make sense out of your many statements concerning hearsay, anecdotal and testimonial evidence?

You appear to me very conflicted:


In Post 73, you stated that:

"In addition, I know that hearsay is typically not enough to convince anyone of anything, which is why this section was so short. I offered the evidence and let you come to your own conclusion. By itself, these do not prove anything, but in collaboration with all the other evidence, it is hard to ignore. Similar to circumstantial evidence, when enough information is gathered that points to the same answer over and over, it is much more likely to be true than not. "

Apparently, hearsay doesn't convince anyone except when it does.
It's "hard to ignore" is the way I think that you put it, and "much more likely to be true" in some cases.

I can't really tell by that if you DO think that hearsay evidence is trustworthy or not.

Some clarification might be in order.

Sometimes, you say, hearsay evidence is "hard to ignore". By itself hearsay is almost worthless, but if put along side better kinds of evidence, they magically transform into good evidence, or as you put it " much more likely to be true than not."

Of course, many people in the past have been convicted of very serious crimes based on circumstantial, testimonial, and even hearsay evidence who were exonerated later by EMPIRICAL evidence ... and sometimes TOO late to do them any good.

I hope for you that if you are ever in a serious legal trial that the jury relies on EMPIRICAL vs. HEARSAY evidence. Because I agree with you that hearsay evidence of ANY AMOUNT is the least trustworthy kind of evidence there is.

Bad evidence doesn't magically transform itself into good evidence. No matter what other evidence there is or isn't.

Hearsay is bad evidence or it's GOOD evidence.
It can't be both, so make up your mind.

In Post 83, you stated that:

"These fell under the category of hearsay evidence, so its up to the reader to decide whether the testimony is worthy of belief."

I have to wonder if you now think that hearsay evidence is worthy of belief.

In Post 92:

" An individual who lives in NY for example who did not witness the earthquake can either rely on the testimony of the individual who lives in California, or refute the claim. "

The NY person would hear someone say that he had empirical evidence of an earthquake. You seem to IMPLY that he would EITHER trust the hearsay evidence or the empirical evidence. It's ALMOST as if you are putting the two kinds of evidence ( empirical vs. hearsay ) on the same LEVEL.

I can't tell. In any case, you present an "either or" situation.

If hearsay evidence is unreliable, why would the New Yorker use THAT kind of evidence to know if an earthquake actually happened or not? Is the New Yorker a gullible person who likes to use untrustworthy evidence?

It seems that you are implying that hearsay and empirical evidence are equivalent to for that New Yorker.. I'd say that's a sad New Yorker, indeed. His epistemology is poor, if that's the case.


In Post 95:

"So by your logic before seismographs were invented, earthquakes were not observed empirically."

By that possibly sarcastic remark, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on what "empirical evidence" means. There are more kinds of empirical evidences for earthquakes than just seismographs. And yet, you do seem to know the difference, because in Post 92, you stated that:

"Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation."

And you don't seem to mention JUST seismographs. The New Yorker can go to the "claimed" earthquake zone and make observations and experiments himself.

This in another example of how you contradicted yourself so far in this thread.
That's where I'm "going with this" , you see.

In Post 99:

"The testimony is a secondary source. I never claimed the testimony was empirical evidence, but the observation was empirical. "

Testimony or hearsay is always at least second hand observations. That's the only kind of evidence we have in the Scriptures.. somebody wrote something about what somebody they call "Jesus" said. That's anecdotal, that's hearsay, that's testimony.

So, whenever the Bible says something like "Jesus said:...." its hearsay, which you call unreliable. That's another place that I'm going with this.

Further in Post 99:

"If it is the testimony of a single person, it may be reasonable to doubt. If it is the testimony of a large group of persons who all live in the same area, and seismographs have no data, it is just as likely the seismographs missed it or were not operating correctly at the time."

You seem confused about what empirical evidence is again. It's as if you think that only SEISMOGRAPHIC evidence is empirical evidence for earthquakes. That's just wrong. Of course it isn't.

But you first say that perhaps the NUMBER of hearsay evidence makes hearsay evidence somehow reliable. But that's like saying that two wrongs make a right.

And then, in the same post:

"I felt you may have also been making a claim that seismographs were the only means by which a person can determine whether an earthquake took place. "

So now you seem to indicate that you KNOW there are more kinds of empirical evidences possible for earthquakes than seismic graphs.

What a mess.

Please find below some questions that might enable us understand your remarkably confusing statements:

____________

Questions:

  • 1. Do you stand by your statement that hearsay evidence is unreliable, or as you put it "least trustworthy "? ONLY A YES OR NO ANSWER REQUIRED..

    2. How does untrustworthy evidence become trustworthy?

    3. Why should we trust untrustworthy evidence?

    4. Is a lot of the Bible based on hearsay and testimony evidence?

    5. Why should we trust the untrustworthy evidence found in the Bible?

    6. You stated that hearsay evidence is untrustworthy BY ITSELF. What transforms bad evidence into good evidence?

    7. Hoes untrustworthy evidence become trustworthy when put next to trustworthy evidence?

    8. In a court case, would you think it's more fair to convict on trustworthy evidence or on untrustworthy evidence?

    9. Why should we bother with untrustworthy evidence at all?

    10. Do you admit that many people have been falsely convicted by anecdotal, hearsay or testimonial evidence?

    11. Why should a skeptic take someone's word as reliable evidence?

    12. If hearsay evidence is IN SOME CASES "much more likely to be true", then how ON EARTH can hearsay evidence not be trustworthy? If hearsay evidence makes a claim "much more likely to be true", then I would say that it IS trustworthy in some cases. So, WHICH IS IT? Trustworthy or untrustworthy?

    13. In your opinion are people ever convinced by anecdotal, testimonial or hearsay evidence?

    14. In your "NY evidence for earthquake" example, are you advocating that the New Yorker should use hearsay or empirical evidence?

    15. You also stated that: "These fell under the category of hearsay evidence, so its up to the reader to decide whether the testimony is worthy of belief." What mechanism do you suggest the reader use to decide whether the testimony is worthy of belief? More testimony, more hearsay, more anecdotes?

    16. How does the number of hearsay testimonies make them more likely true?

    17. In your opinion, why should we EVER convict on purely hearsay evidence?

    18. Do you see the utility of enabling us to give you a chance to advance your case?

____________


:smileright: :smileleft:

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Post #107

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 73 by KingandPriest]

Time to get back to replying.
Furthermore, your comments about JFK are not contesting what I wrote. There is little debate or doubt that Jesus was crucified.
Yes, there is. Richard Carrier is a well known scholar who doubts the existence of Jesus. I'm not saying I agree with him, but...he's there.
If you allow documentation evidence to be treated as empirical for the purposes of proof of God, then non-theists can no longer argue that there is no evidence to support the existence of God.
I'm not allowing documentation to be treated as empirical for the purposes of proof of God. That's because I recognise that literally anyone can write literally anything down. Like with the story of the great darkness in the gospels...yeah, some people wrote it down. Doesn't mean it's true.
What I meant by empirical is that it is something we can confirm with our senses. We can touch documents, see them. Doesn't mean we have to treat the contents of the documents as true.
Is it not just as likely that the government of 2000 years ago, tried to cover up certain actual witness testimony and call the individuals heretics and insane? You argue against the divinity of Christ, but are willing to accept a "single bullet theory" or otherwise dubbed the magic bullet theory, put out by the Warren Commission, that could explain the actual trauma recorded on his body?
Who says I accept the single bullet theory? It is entirely possible that I just have never looked into JFK's assassination. As for the government of 2,000 years editing documents - that goes both ways. Let me remind you that it was the councils of the first few centuries AD that decided which documents got into the Bible. Let me remind you that there were various sects of Christianity that all disagreed with one another. Your hypothesis about ancient governments allows for the possibility for what is in the Bible to be nothing more than propaganda, with the exculpatory evidence showing it to be clearly false having been carefully removed.
Are you certain that detectives do not use philosophical arguments to determine whether something actually occurred.
I meant philosophical arguments like Kalam, Modal Ontological etc. I honestly do not think a detective goes into a crime scene and then starts using Kalam or the MOA or some such to begin figuring out exactly what happened or who the perps are.
I simply can't imagine a detective going into a room where somebody has been murdered and saying to himself "Hmm...God must necessarily exist, and here are the premises of the argument to prove so..."
Most investigations require six basic questions to be answered. Readers have known these questions for most of their collective lives. “Who, what, when, where, why, and how?�
These aren't philosophical arguments. These are questions rooted in data. Like the when? That can be answered like 8pm, the where could be the parlor and the who could be the disgruntled butler, and the why could be the butler was promised to be in the will but then told later he wasn't.
To attempt and understand the why, detectives use a myriad of training techniques which include assessing someone's mental state. This opens the door to psychology and philosophy. Most criminal justice curriculum in the US include a course or more on criminology. This course itself is a sociology course that attempts to explain the psychology and philosophical thinking of a person when they transgress the law.
Do any of these courses touch on God? I think not. I'd be highly surprised if a course on psychology attempted to teach people how God thinks.
If so, then Daniel was able to precisely predict events about the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria with precise detail about a century before it occurred.
How could Daniel get Antiochus correct with precise detail and yet somehow have his place of death so wrong?
I would hope you don't see anything magical, as this would run contrary to what the bible declares.
I use the word magical to mean something contrary to natural laws. If I put a filament into a lightbulb and run electricity through, I'll get light. However, according to Harry Potter, I could get light by simply holding a stick and saying a certain word, and this effect is called magic.
Much the same happens in the Bible. Trumpets sound, people shout and walls fall down. People are healed of illnesses with but the utterance of a word.

Thanks for the working links. I notice that as they get more and more recent, the less 'spectacular' they become. We have stories from a century ago about a girl who floats and speaks multiple languages, but this is only from text in a story.
What videos we do see are...unfulfilling to say the least. The Godisreal link relies clearly on actors to tell a story, with nary a shot of any actual evidence (much like the HIV 'sufferers' I talked about before, we see only a very brief zoomed in screenshot of some textual documents that may or may not be from medical professionals).
To give an idea of the type of videos we're talking about...Godisreal relies on videos produced by Pat Robertson's 700 club, and Mr. Robertson is on video saying that gay people have needles with HIV and they go around pricking people with them, so as to deliberately spread HIV.
Trustworthy is not an adjective I'd give to Pat Robertson, 700 club or Godisreal.

In short, I again repeat my criticism from earlier. You've got an extreme claim you're trying to prove (although you seem to be standing by the assertion that one has to believe the claim before investigating it... :-s ) and to prove it, you're citing other extreme claims that you don't provide evidence for. Where's the evidence that the woman in the Godisreal video (Marlene Klepees) ever had cerebral palsy at all? Or that she was indeed cured through a singular prayer?
I have a cousin with cerebral palsy who's father is a devout Christian. Funnily enough, he's never been cured. I don't know if the cousin is himself Christian, never bothered asking him, but still...I find it strange that you're citing what looks to me to be an un-evidenced story to prop up yet another story.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.
When I made my point about the relative lack of documentation around Jesus, copies of the New Testament do not cut it in my eyes. As you said...these are copies of the New Testament, where these claims originally appear.
Where's the documentation from other sources? Romans living in Jerusalem for example? Strange how no Romans talk about a man who has the ability to conjure food or heal illnesses.
Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy . . . and they are very consistent.
Yes, with each other and practically nothing else. No-one else outside of Matthew even mentions the saints rising from their graves and having a stroll around Jerusalem.
A persons actions and lifestyle is a sure sign of what they believe. Observing a persons actions will reveal more about them than what they say with their mouth.
I agree, which is why I have to point out Peter denying Jesus. Why? What would he have to be afraid of, if he's been wandering around with Jesus and seeing him do all sorts of wondrous acts like raise people from the dead? If my best pal could casually resurrect people with the wave of a hand, I wouldn't be afraid of people poking me with sharp objects, just like I'm not afraid of dying in a video game - I'd know dying isn't the literal end of my existence.
Once again it shows how much the early believers accepted and followed the words of Christ. It demonstrates commitment, which many attempt to undermine by saying the New testament was just made up by a group of people after the fact.
Again, I have to point out that what early believers accept and follow tells us nothing towards whether those beliefs are true or not. The Heaven's Gaters accepted and followed the teachings of their cult, and most certainly had commitment. Should I take that as a sign that the spaceship they believed in is real?
I notice that KnP didn't comment on whether or not he believes the HG spaceship is real.
Your presupposition about what I am trying to prove is incorrect. I am trying to prove the bible can be trusted.
With regards to the god entity it talks about.
"Wouldn't an explosion of documentation detailing Jesus, versus little to no documentation for any other historical figure one could care to name, be considered a miracle?"
Different sources, not just copies of the source of the claims. That there are apparently thousands of copies of the New Testament tells us only that the New Testament was copied thousands of times, for one reason or another.
So it doesn't matter what evidence is presented, so long as you don't have a time machine to go back in time and verify whether or not they were influenced by early Christians.
Or that they don't contradict what we know through science, like with the eclipses I talked about.
Some of the extra biblical accounts were actually attempts to discredit Christianity. Josephus and Tacticus writings could not be deemed as influenced by early Christians due to what they actually wrote.
I could've sworn that Josephus was edited by Christians.
After all, if Josephus is supposed to be be an attempt to discredit Christianity, why would he say of Jesus 'He was [the] Christ'? Or that he appeared to his followers after his death?
This suggests to me that you are not at all familiar with Josephus.
I am providing a basis to determine whether or not the bible can be trusted. I never said these evidences prove that God exists. If you recall the title which you stated earlier you do not accept, I hold that the bible proves that God exists. I then give support to show the validity of the bible. If all of this evidence in the OP and presented here support the validity of the bible, then the claims within the bible can be trusted.
This is just confusing. These evidences in your words do not prove God exists. You say the Bible proves God exists. The evidences are supposed to support the validity of the Bible...which would be the evidences proving God exists.
The account by Celsus demonstrates that Jesus was known to have performed miracles.
I would put believed there, rather than known.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

checkers
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Re: Bible is sufficient evidence of God

Post #108

Post by checkers »

[Replying to post 1 by KingandPriest]

Without the Bible, I would have never known who I am and God would have never known who he or his voice is.

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marco
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Post #109

Post by marco »

checkers wrote: [Replying to post 1 by KingandPriest]

Without the Bible, I would have never known who I am and God would have never known who he or his voice is.


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TheBeardedDude
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Post #110

Post by TheBeardedDude »

Moderator, OnceConvinced removed one-line, non-contributing post. Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

For complementing or agreeing use the "Like" function or the MGP button. For anything else use PM.

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