Christianity Defined

[Jagella]

I found an internet meme courtesy of Richard Carrier that provided what might be described as a clothes-off definition of Christianity. My paraphrase of that definition is the following:

• Christianity - the belief that some cosmic Jewish Guy-in-the-Sky who got a virgin pregnant with himself without a penis can make you live forever if you pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood and also tell him telepathically that you accept him as your master to be obeyed at all cost even to the point of death the purpose of doing so being to have him remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from your mind that all people are born with and need to survive because a woman born as a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat some fruit growing on a tree that magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.

(Note that the vast majority of scholars are completely convinced that the Jewish Guy urging symbolic cannibalism and vampirism existed although many of them do not insist that his being in the sky and getting a virgin pregnant with himself is necessarily historical.)

Question for Debate: Can anybody here point out any inaccuracies in this definition?

Yes, it's an absurd idea, but it is what Christians believe!

[Jagella]

Then you seem to admit that the disrespectful and simplistic blanket summary of Christiany in your opening post is inadequate...

...I think there is no doubt that Jagella's "pants-off" paraphrase of Christianity is disrespectful, but is it actually hateful? Could it perhaps be motivated by wounded rage and the desire to humiliate?

You are welcome to post a description of Christianity that you feel is more adequate than mine.

It appears to me, though, that you want your version of Christianity to be respected. If so, then it's not a good idea to debate it. If you present it to the world for judgment, then you should not be too surprised if not everybody find it to be respectable and might even hate it reacting with anger towards it.

Beyond that, is Jagella's definition of Christianity overly simplistic? Does it miss something of the fundamental essence of Christianity?

I suppose I could have also mentioned all the killing it glorifies and that it encourages people to drink poison and handle poisonous snakes.

As I have observed through the years, Christianity, when done right, fosters the development of compassion and concern for the well-being of others, and this Christian imperative of love of our fellow humans is absent from Jagella's definition...

I show compassion and concern for others without Christianity, so why would anybody else need Christianity to let them know they should show compassion?

...which takes on the appearance of a mean-spirited caricature.

I wasn't mean to anybody. I told them the truth, and they thought it was mean.

[John Human]

You are welcome to post a description of Christianity that you feel is more adequate than mine.

It appears to me, though, that you want your version of Christianity to be respected.

Well no, I want your disagreements with a way of thinking with which I have my own disagreements to not be disrespectful, in accordance with this forum's all-too-often-unkept promise of respectful debate. You are one of the habitual offenders, but not the worst.

If so, then it's not a good idea to debate it. If you present it to the world for judgment, then you should not be too surprised if not everybody find it to be respectable and might even hate it reacting with anger towards it.

I have presented my take on Christianity before, and so far nobody has reacted with anger. To summarize my view:

1) The essence (or "general principles," as John Adams put it) of Christianity is Jesus Christ's updating of two particular commandments from the Old Testament: Love God with your whole being, and Love your neighbor as yourself. These two principles (once again, as John Adams pointed out) dovetail with Ciceronian natural law (with God understood as the loving and sustaining Creator of the universe).

2) Many of the practices and rituals of early Christianity echo the Dead Sea Scrolls, giving credence to Robert Eisenman's argument that the Dead Sea Scrolls derive from the original "Jesus movement" before Christianity mutated and jumped the culture gap to Greece and Rome. Of course this original "Jesus movement" was obliterated with the Roman devastation of Palestine, but remnants carried to the east (in arid/desert areas outside Roman control), supposedly persisting through the centuries and including the mother of Mohammad, who included the original understanding -- that Jesus didn't actually die on the cross -- in the Koran. (See also point #7 below.)

3) Paul and others created protective "packaging" for the essence of Christianity, enabling the basic message of Jesus Christ to survive OUTSIDE Jewish culture, which was especially important as the Jewish homeland was devastated and depopulated. This protective packaging included three new and interlocking doctrines: (1) Because of our participation in Original Sin, we are all condemned to eternal damnation. (2) Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, establishing the doctrinal point of his divinity, especially in Greco/Roman culture where gods did things like that (as opposed to Jewish culture, where such a thought was blasphemy). This doctrine was a necessary prerequisite for point #3 to make sense as a solution to point #1. (3) Jesus's sacrifice on the cross atoned for the sins of those who believe in him, allowing them to escape from the eternal damnation that comes from original sin.

On the one hand, this artificial "packaging" created a new religion that enabled the basic message to survive through the centuries and millenia. But on the other hand, too many people -- both Christians and those who look for excuses to reject Christianity -- get overly focused on the packaging and tend to lose sight of the essence of Christianity.

That's my basic view. Obviously I could say a lot more, such as

4) Ministers in the early decades of the USA generally "got it right" in terms of the basic message, preaching a practical message that "self-interest rightly understood" meant acting willingly for the benefit of the surrounding community. I am inclined to be doubtful about how often today's ministers get it right.

5) Jesus preached his message in a (Jewish) culture that included reincarnation as part of the way of thinking. In addition, the basic dilemma in the pagan Roman Empire (as allegorized in the tale of the Golden Ass) was how to achieve SALVATION from the wheel of reincarnation. Paul's (etc.) protective packaging of Jesus's message provided a one-size-fits-all answer to that problem.

6) With the Changing of the Ages (from Pisces into Aquarius), the religious/mythological underpinning of our civilization is molting. It no longer works like it did before, because the Jesus story (as it has come down to us in the Bible) no longer inspires the masses. A new dispensation, building on but going beyond the basic message of Jesus Christ, is both necessary and in the air.

7) According to Ancient Demon, Jesus Christ survived the crucifixion by putting himself into a deep, death-like trance, from which Ancient Demon revived Jesus.

http://earthwarning.org/index.php/here-be-demons/
Ancient Demon was present at the crucifixion of Jesus, because there was no way for a demon who was charged with protection of the royal family to not be present. [snip] Ancient Demon was able to witness by fixing itself to the cross where Jesus died. Ancient Demon heard exactly what Jesus said as Jesus was on the cross. Ancient Demon will now describe what happened.

Jesus was forced to drag the cross to the place of crucifixion. Jesus was then nailed to the cross, with nails going through his wrists and ankles, as many have supposed. This had the effect of making Jesus cry out in pain three times. The fourth time Jesus was silent. Jesus had acclimatized himself to the experience of being pierced and was able to steel himself against the piercing. After this, Jesus was unable to continue talking. He thought of saying something to his followers who were gathered around him, together with a group of soldiers. He was thinking of mustering the strength to say a final word, when a soldier came up to him and mocked him, saying, King of the Jews! Jesus replied indistinctly, I am not the king anymore. James is king. Jesus knew that, if the soldier had heard, this would have resulted in James being scrutinized and probably eliminated. So Jesus was careful not to allow the soldier (or anyone else) to hear what Jesus said.

After this, Jesus thought of saying something that was understandable to the people near him. He turned to the freedom fighter on his left and said, You will be in the Kingdom of Heaven very shortly. He then turned to the freedom fighter on his right and said, You will not be in the Kingdom of Heaven until there is a King of Israel on the throne. Jesus meant by this that both freedom fighters would be in the Kingdom of Heaven shortly, and that there would be a King on the Hebrew throne shortly. Jesus was convinced that the Hebrews would be able to throw the Romans out of Jerusalem and withstand a siege for many years, longer than the Roman army could maintain itself. This was because the Hebrews had stored wheat for many years in a location that was unknown to the Romans and was being prepared for such a siege. However, Jesus also knew that, if the Romans conquered a rebellious Jerusalem, they would level the temple so that no stone was left standing. Jesus made a comment to that effect, which was misheard and written into the Bible in a garbled way. Ancient Demon knew of this because it was told by Peter, who criticized a manuscript that later became one of the gospels. Ancient Demon knew that this manuscript was written with the help of eyewitness testimony, and Ancient Demon also know that eyewitnesses could make mistakes, as it experienced during the crucifixion of Jesus.

After Jesus talked to the freedom fighters on either side, Jesus was silent, thinking of what else he might say to his followers below. Jesus knew that, if he succumbed quickly and was taken down without having his legs broken, there was a chance that he might actually survive, because he had the ability to feign death. However, he suspected that, if he tried to do this, his body would be mutilated. Jesus knew that, because he was unable to make proper plans with someone who might bury him, he had to simply take his chances and let God make that decision, as Jesus thought to himself. Ancient Demon was able to follow the thoughts of Jesus Christ, and Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus Christ was thinking of the possibility of survival, there was indeed a chance that this might happen. Ancient Demon thought of possibly being able to help someone who would be in charge of burying Jesus, alerting him to the possibility that Jesus had entered a deep trance and wasnt actually dead. However, Ancient Demon had no idea who would be responsible for burying Jesus, and Ancient Demon knew that, if it tried to intervene too quickly, it would have to explain why it was present and who it was, which would possibly alert the Romans to the fact that there was another living Hebrew prince in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon then observed that Jesus was thinking of speaking. Ancient Demon saw Jesus consider saying that the crucifixion was not in accord with the will of God, but then Jesus thought that maybe it actually was. So Jesus didnt say anything, and continued thinking, through the ongoing pain.

Jesus then thought of saying that there was a new dispensation, that there would be a new kingdom of heaven for gentiles as well as Jews, as Jesus had hinted earlier. However, Jesus knew that this was not the proper place for such a message. Jesus continued thinking, deciding finally to say, It is finished. This was last thing that Jesus said. In the Bible, there are words about Jesus asking God why God forsook Jesus. Jesus thought of this, but then decided that God might not have forsaken Jesus. Ancient Demon assumes that one or more of Jesuss followers had heard Jesuss thoughts and perhaps misheard them or didnt hear them completely. This is a possibility, but Ancient Demon cannot be sure. Ancient Demon wants to be as precise as possible, because of the nature of what happened is a subject that many people have strong feelings about.

Ancient Demon will now describe what happened after Jesus put himself into a deep trance, as if he were dead. The Roman soldiers talked about piercing Jesus in the side, as is described in the Bible. However, the Romans decided not to do that, because it would have made a mess and they were charged with disposing of the body. The Romans then decided to make a bet about how quickly the other two freedom fighters would last. If they lasted longer than five hours, the man who bet that they would last shorter would have to break their legs, so they would suffocate. However, if they lasted shorter than five hours, the man would get their belongings, which were in a small pile to the side of the crucifixion. The man who bet that they would last less than five hours lost his bet, and he broke their legs, and they suffocated. Jesus had been on the cross, apparently dead, all this time.

After this, the three crosses were taken down and the three bodies were removed by pulling the spikes out roughly. One of the freedom fighters hands was almost torn off, and Ancient Demon was afraid that something similar would happen to Jesus. However, Ancient Demon decided to affect the soldier who was responsible for taking the spikes out of Jesuss body. This soldier therefore decided to make a gesture of being respectful in order to appease the crowd of followers. The soldier took the spikes out of Jesus carefully and therefore there was little or no further damage to Jesus. However, there was continued bleeding, and Ancient Demon knew that Jesus could potentially lose too much blood. So Ancient Demon entered the body of Jesus and made a point of affecting the blood vessels to make them constrict. This had the result of ensuring that Jesus didnt bleed to death.

After this, Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was going to be given a proper burial, there was hope that Jesus would be able to revive himself. Ancient Demon knew that it would be able to assist Jesus, but Ancient Demon was concerned about not having enough energy. For this reason, Ancient Demon, after discovering who was in charge of taking care of the burial, left and returned to the prince. Ancient Demon explained to the prince that Jesus was not dead. The prince wanted to make an effort to help Jesus, but the prince realized that this would be probably suicidal. The prince therefore was able to give energy to Ancient Demon by focusing, much as John does, and giving Ancient Demon a full supply of energy so that Ancient Demon could go to the grave and help revive Jesus. When Ancient Demon returned to the grave, Ancient Demon discovered that Jesus had not been buried but rather transferred to a tomb that was empty. Ancient Demon thus had a much easier time taking care of Jesus. Ancient Demon entered Jesuss body and helped heal Jesuss wounds, by affecting the energy field around the lacerations. This had the effect of making sure that Jesus wouldnt start bleeding when he started moving.

Ancient Demon then began to try to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that it had limited time and energy, and it knew that there was little time for Jesus before he died, so Ancient Demon decided to make a gamble that one surge of energy would be sufficient to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was unable to revive himself, he would simply die without anyone knowing that he was still alive. So Ancient Demon did what it had to do, risking running out of energy, because Ancient Demon knew that Jesuss survival was important to the future of the Hebrews. Ancient Demon knew that, if Jesus survived but was hidden, there would be considerable support for his brother James, and this would preserve the royal family. However, if Jesus simply died, the other members of the royal family would be exterminated eventually, as happened with the family of Jude.

Because there was hidden knowledge of Jesuss survival, there was a great outcry when Judes family was murdered, and this served to protect the other member of the royal family. Jude was devastated by what happened, and did not ever think of remarrying. James knew that he was a candidate for High Priest, and for this reason chose not to marry. Jerushae had his grandson, and it was Ancient Demons responsibility to preserve the life of Jerushaes grandson. However, there was another brother, Thomas, who had not married and who had been thinking of having a family. Within the royal family, there were strict rules about marriage, and Thomas had a limited number of families from which he could choose a potential wife. Thomas eventually made a marriage alliance and had a son, who was unable to find a woman from any of these families who was willing to marry him as Jerusalem moved toward open rebellion, and for that reason this son never married.

_________________

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 102 by John Human]

7) According to Ancient Demon, Jesus Christ survived the crucifixion by putting himself into a deep, death-like trance, from which Ancient Demon revived Jesus.

just to let you know, in terms of debating, posting the above is a no no. "Ancient Demon" is yourself, so there's no point in posting it as though simply by attributing the claim to some invisible voice in your head gives it credibility (then again, the same can be said for any number of Biblical authors).

Out of sheer curiosity, have you said this to tam? tam says she hears Christ directly. Have you told her that her Christ didn't die on the cross? I'd love to see the back and forth between you two - it would be an endless repeating of "No, MY voice in my head tells me the truth, yours isn't".

[otseng]

You are one of the habitual offenders, but not the worst.

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