God's Plan?

[POI]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

[POI]

Sure, you just freely ignore what's written and pretend it means something else. Heli means Jacob. Sound familiar?

You think that a person can't have two names? Why?

Of course a person can be known by more than one name. Usually if you don't use a person's actual first name, you use a nickname or a middle name. Do you think people writing important genealogies would use nicknames or middle names and create potential confusion?

If you follow your logic, then every mention of Jesus in the NT could actually be someone else. These may actually be stories about 15 different people that had different first names, but either had nicknames or middle names of 'Jesus' (whatever the original language and pronunciation was).

You are admitting that names have no importance and we are free to substitute as we like (i.e. interpret freely) in order to justify some belief.

I doubt many readers will buy your argument, but I guess if that's all you have I'm happy to watch you use it.

Exactly. Why do you add your own spin on top of what is actually written?

I can't help but to again bring up the be-fitting analogy... It's like throwing a dart at the wall, and afterwards, drawing a bull's-eye around that dart

I only show that your interpretation can be wrong.

Except you are the one creating an interpretation that requires adding extra context and words that are not present. You aren't showing I'm wrong (though I may very well be), you are arguing that we shouldn't read what's written, but add a bunch of other stuff to make it line up to some predetermined outcome. You go in with a story in mind and force the text to tell that story whether it does or not. It's quite obvious what you are doing for anyone paying attention.

[POI]

Sure, you just freely ignore what's written and pretend it means something else. Heli means Jacob. Sound familiar?

You think that a person can't have two names? Why?

Of course a person can be known by more than one name. Usually if you don't use a person's actual first name, you use a nickname or a middle name. Do you think people writing important genealogies would use nicknames or middle names and create potential confusion?

If you follow your logic, then every mention of Jesus in the NT could actually be someone else. These may actually be stories about 15 different people that had different first names, but either had nicknames or middle names of 'Jesus' (whatever the original language and pronunciation was).

You are admitting that names have no importance and we are free to substitute as we like (i.e. interpret freely) in order to justify some belief.

I doubt many readers will buy your argument, but I guess if that's all you have I'm happy to watch you use it.

Exactly. Why do you add your own spin on top of what is actually written?

I can't help but to again bring up the be-fitting analogy... It's like throwing a dart at the wall, and afterwards, drawing a bull's-eye around that dart

I only show that your interpretation can be wrong.

Except you are the one creating an interpretation that requires adding extra context and words that are not present. You aren't showing I'm wrong (though I may very well be), you are arguing that we shouldn't read what's written, but add a bunch of other stuff to make it line up to some predetermined outcome. You go in with a story in mind and force the text to tell that story whether it does or not. It's quite obvious what you are doing for anyone paying attention.

Yes, it's quite obvious. I can't help but to again bring up the be-fitting analogy... It's like throwing a dart at the wall, and afterwards, drawing a bull's-eye around that dart

[TRANSPONDER]

Absolutely. It is blindingly obvious what is going on here. Apart from extant evidence of different and contradictory stories (nativities) the probability must be that the different names are different persons. There is no real point of contact? Both names are never given? The gospels usually explain why the Boanerges were also sons of Zebedee or why Peter was also called Cephus.

Even apologists can (at times ) recognise they are different because of course they go through different lines of Royalty - don't these Bible apologists ever read, let alone understand, their own Bible? So they pretend they are different genealogies, which plainly they are not - both end up with Joseph as father of Jesus (which Christian doctrine says he wasn't). And then when that fails, they think up some excuse why they are the same.

It is as clear as 1 Cor not describing the Gospel resurrections - getting at the facts doesn't matter; propping up the personal opinions of the apologist is all that matters, and if the evidence, reality and the Bible itself disagrees, they are all wrong. Even the Bible.

I still think it is a standout that one apologist posted the whole resurrection scenario and edited out all the contradictions, so he knew what they were, and then denied he'd done it when it was there in the post. I can only thank nongod that my brain is not a frazzled as that.

[1213]

...Do you think people writing important genealogies would use nicknames or middle names and create potential confusion?

I think it is possible that people used multiple names. For example Simon was called also Peter (Matt. 4:18). That could cause confusion. But, I think it is problem only if one makes it a problem.

You are admitting that names have no importance

I think names have importance.

...you are arguing that we shouldn't read what's written,...

I think people should read what is written. But, I think they also should not make too hasty conclusions from it. It would be good to understand that Bible doesn't tell everything, it is just a small part of what people witnessed.

[oaroloye]

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #26]

I left for intellectual reasons and broken Bible promises. It wasn't a quick decision and it certainly wasn't a comfortable one. It can be hard to break free from all the peer pressure and slick apologetics. Thankfully the rose colored glasses finally slipped off and I'm no longer fooled. Which is kind of ironic since some Christians will claim exactly that - that I have been fooled by Satan. Uh right. I was fooled into studying scripture too closely. I always say to my Christian friends, if you don't want to follow my path, don't ask too many questions or read your Bible too closely.

Since we have been in discussion on a number of threads now, surely you can't be unaware of some of the many problems I found. You of course don't consider all these issues we are debating to be 'real problems'. That doesn't matter to me of course. Now I spend some of my time debating these issues and providing evidence for my point of view. Readers are free to agree or disagree.

Since you will ask and surely try and refute it, one example of a broken Bible promise:

IF GOD SENT YOU, and a mountain were an obstacle, you could command the mountain to be cast away, and it would happen.

. EXODUS 17:1-7.

AND all the Congregation of the Children of Israel
journeyed from the wilderness of Sin,
after their journeys,
according to The Commandment of The LORD,
and pitched in Rephidim:
and there was no water for the people to drink.
2. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses,
and said,

"Give us water that we may drink.?

And Moses said unto them,

"Why chide ye with me?
Wherefore do ye tempt The LORD??

3. And the people thirsted there for water;
and the people murmured against Moses,
and said,

"Wherefore is this
that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt,
to kill us and our children
and our cattle with thirst?"

4. And Moses cried unto The LORD,
saying,

"What shall I do unto this people?
they be almost ready to stone me."

5. And The LORD Said unto Moses,

"Go on before the people,
and take with thee of the Elders of Israel;
and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river,
take in thine hand, and go.
6. "Behold, I will stand before thee
there upon the rock in Horeb;
and thou shalt smite the rock,
and there shall come water out of it,
that the people may drink."

And Moses did so
in the sight of the Elders of Israel.
7. And he called the name of the place Massah,
and Meribah,
because of the chiding of the Children of Israel,
and because they tempted the LORD,
saying,

"IS THE LORD AMONG US, OR NOT?"

. DEUTERONOMY 6:16-18.

16. Ye shall not tempt The LORD your God,
as ye tempted him in Massah.
17. Ye shall diligently keep
The Commandments of The LORD your God,
and His Testimonies, and His Statutes,
Which He hath Commanded thee.
18. And thou shalt do that which is right and good
in The Sight of The LORD:
that it may be well with thee,
and that thou mayest go in and possess
the good land which The LORD Sware unto thy Fathers.

SO WHAT HAPPENED? CLEARLY, YOU TRIED TO MOVE A MOUNTAIN AS A TEST.

. MARK 11:11-26.

11. And Jesus entered into Jerusalem,
and into the Temple:
and when he had looked round about upon all things,
and now the eventide was come,
he went out unto Bethany with the Twelve.
12. And on the morrow,
when they were come from Bethany,
he was hungry:
13. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves,
he came,
if haply he might find any thing thereon:
and when he came to it,
he found nothing but leaves;
for the time of figs was not yet.
14. And Jesus Answered and said unto it,

"No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever."

And his Disciples heard it.

15. And they come to Jerusalem:
and Jesus went into The Temple,
and began to cast out them
that sold and bought in The Temple,
and overthrew the tables
of the moneychangers,
and the seats of them
that sold doves;
16. And would not suffer
that any man should carry any vessel
through The Temple.
17. And he taught,
Saying unto them,

"Is it not written,
'My House shall be

‘CALLED OF ALL NATIONS
THE HOUSE OF PRAYER?’

but ye have

‘MADE IT A DEN OF THIEVES.' "

18. And the Scribes and Chief Priests heard it,
and sought how they might destroy him:
for they feared him,
because all the People
was astonished at his Doctrine.

19. And when even was come,
he went out of the city.

20. And in the morning,
as they passed by,
they saw the fig tree dried up
from the roots.
21. And Peter calling to remembrance
saith unto him,

"Master, behold,
the fig tree which thou cursedst
is withered away."

22. And Jesus Answering Saith unto them,

"Have Faith in God.
23. "For verily I Say unto you,

'THAT WHOSOEVER SHALL SAY
UNTO THIS MOUNTAIN,

"BE THOU REMOVED,
AND BE THOU CAST INTO THE SEA;"

AND SHALL NOT DOUBT IN HIS HEART,
BUT SHALL BELIEVE THAT THOSE THINGS
WHICH HE SAITH SHALL COME TO PASS;
HE SHALL HAVE WHATSOEVER HE SAITH.'

24. "Therefore I Say unto you,

'WHAT THINGS SOEVER YE DESIRE,
WHEN YE PRAY,
BELIEVE THAT YE RECEIVE THEM,
AND YE SHALL HAVE THEM.'

25. "And when ye stand praying,
forgive, if ye have ought against any:
that your Father also
Which is in Heaven
may forgive you your trespasses.
26. "But if ye do not forgive,
neither will your Father
Which is in Heaven
forgive your trespasses."

HAD YOU FULFILLED ALL CONDITIONS? FORGIVEN ALL YOU HAD OUGHT AGAINST?

Obviously not.

. MATTHEW 4:1-11.

THEN was Jesus led up of The Spirit
into the wilderness to be tempted of The Devil.
2. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
he was afterward an hungred.
3. And when The Tempter came to him,
he said,

"If thou be The Son of God,
Command that these stones be made bread."

4. But he a
Answered and Said,
"It is written,

'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE
BY BREAD ALONE,
BUT BY EVERY WORD
THAT PROCEEDETH
OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' "

5. Then The Devil taketh him up into the Holy City,
and setteth him on a pinnacle of the Temple,
6. And saith unto him,

"If thou be The Son of God,
cast thyself down:
for it is written,

'HE SHALL GIVE HIS ANGELS
CHARGE CONCERNING THEE:
AND IN THEIR HANDS
THEY SHALL BEAR THEE UP,
LEST AT ANY TIME
THOU DASH THY FOOT
AGAINST A STONE.' "

7. Jesus Said unto him,

"It is written again,

'THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD.' "

8. Again, The Devil taketh him up
into an exceeding high mountain,
and sheweth him all The Kingdoms of the World,
and The Glory of them;
9. And saith unto him,

"All these things will I give thee,
if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

10. Then Saith Jesus unto him,

"Get thee hence, Satan:
for it is written,

'THOU SHALT WORSHIP
THE LORD THY GOD,
AND HIM ONLY
SHALT THOU SERVE.' "

11. Then The Devil leaveth him,
and, behold,
Angels came and ministered unto him.

SATAN TOLD YOU: "IF YOU THINK GOD TOLD THE TRUTH, COMMAND THE MOUNTAIN TO MOVE!"

If you thought you had Faith, why didn't you get up at 5AM to pray for people who didn't even know you?

Even for people who hated you?

The Faith-in-God that you only use when you want something for yourself is not Faith in The God of Just Weights and Righteous Measures.

[oaroloye]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

(1) GOD IS NOT THE SERVANT OF MAN; MAN IS THE SERVANT OF GOD.

. EXODUS 20:1-21.

AND God Spake all these Words, Saying,

2. "I AM THE LORD THY GOD, WHICH HAVE BROUGHT THEE OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, OUT OF THE HOUSE OF BONDAGE.

3. "THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.

4. "THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, OR THAT IS IN THE EARTH BENEATH, OR THAT IS IN THE WATER UNDER THE EARTH.
5. "THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS
UPON THE CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION OF THEM THAT HATE ME;
6. "AND SHEWING MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS OF THEM THAT LOVE ME, AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

7. "THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN;FOR THE LORD WILL NOT HOLD HIM GUILTLESS THAT TAKETH HIS NAME IN VAIN.

8. "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY.
9. "SIX DAYS SHALT THOU LABOUR, AND DO ALL THY WORK:
10. "BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: IN IT THOU SHALT NOT DO ANY WORK, THOU, NOR THY SON, NOR THY DAUGHTER, THY MANSERVANT, NOR THY MAIDSERVANT, NOR THY CATTLE, NOR THY STRANGER THAT IS WITHIN THY GATES:
11. "FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY, AND HALLOWED IT.

12. "HONOUR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER: THAT THY DAYS MAY BE LONG UPON THE LAND WHICH THE LORD THY GOD GIVETH THEE.

13. "THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

14. "THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.

15. "THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

16. "THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOUR.

17. "THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOUR'S HOUSE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOUR'S WIFE, NOR HIS MANSERVANT, NOR HIS MAIDSERVANT, NOR HIS OX,
NOR HIS ASS, NOR ANY THING THAT IS THY NEIGHBOUR'S."

18. And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19. And they said unto Moses,

"Speak thou with us, and we will hear:but let not God speak with us, lest we die."

20. And Moses said unto the people,

"Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that His Fear may be before your faces, that ye Sin not."

21. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick Darkness where God was.

YOU ARE A BAD PERSON, WHO HAS NEVER READ ALL OF THESE SCRIPTURES IN YOUR LIFE.

It was your duty to know why Yahweh God stopped at TEN COMMANDMENTS; you did not do your duty.

You did not know: now you do.

What, I wonder, will knowing now change in your life?

Probably nothing.

I have never shown this to anyone who wanted to know.

IF THE CHILDREN OF Y'SRAEL HAD WAITED PATIENTLY AND REVERENTLY BEFORE MOUNT SINAI, GOD WOULD HAVE DICTATED HIS WHOLE LAW, AND BEEN OBLIGED TO WRITE OUT ALL OF IT.

Since they were rude to go running off while their God was talking, TEN was all they got.

(2) SCRIPTURES ARE NECESSARY BECAUSE OF HUMAN WICKEDNESS.

GOD explicitly Commanded us to use 100% of our faculties to serve Him.

[Recycled Post:]

. DEUTERONOMY 6:1-9.

NOW these are The Commandments,
The Statutes, and The Judgments,
Which The LORD your God
Commanded to teach you,
that ye might do them in the land
whither ye go to possess it:
2. That thou mightest fear The LORD thy God,
to keep all His Statutes and His Commandments,
Which I command thee,
thou, and thy son, and thy son's son,
all the days of thy life;
and that thy days may be prolonged.
3. Hear therefore, O Israel,
and observe to do It;
that it may be well with thee,
and that ye may increase mightily,
as The LORD God of thy Fathers
hath Promised thee,
in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4. Hear, O Israel:

"The LORD our God is one LORD:
5. And thou shalt love The LORD thy God
with all thine Heart,
and with all thy Soul,
and with all thy Might."

6. And these Words,
which I Command thee this Day,
shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach Them diligently
unto thy Children,
and shalt talk of Them
when thou sittest in thine house,
and when thou walkest by the way,
and when thou liest down,
and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them
for a sign upon thine hand,
and they shall be as frontlets
between thine eyes.
9. And thou shalt write them
upon the posts of thy house,
and on thy gates.

THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENTS IN THE BIBLE ARE THOSE OF THESE TWO CHAPTERS:

. LEVITICUS 11:1-47.
. MATTHEW 18:1-35.
. EPISTLE OF BARNABAS 9:1-20.

These cause the rehabilitation of lost Consciousness from the subpar >10% default in under one year, to 100% optimum in under seven years.

. THE TEN TALENTS OF POWER. (Matt. 25)

10% TOTAL RECALL.
20% EXTRASENSORY PERCEPTION.
30% TELEKINESIS.
40% TELEPORTATION.
50% TRANSLATION.
100% EVERLASTING LIFE.

[See: PHILISTINE AND GENIUS, by Boris Sidis (1911).
INTRODUCTION TO PSYCHOANALYSIS, by Sigmund Freud (1916).
DIANETICS: The Modern Science of Mental Health, by L. Ron Hubbard (1950).
THE POWER OF SILENCE, by Carlos Castaneda (1987).
THE SORCERER'S CROSSING: A Woman's Journey, by Taisha Abelar (1993).
THE EINSTEIN FACTOR, by Win Wenger and Richard Poe (1995).]

[End of Recycled Post.]

YAHWEH GOD COULD AND SHOULD HAVE MADE IT A CAPITAL CRIME TO FORGET HIS WORDS.

However, what sort of a World would that be? He is merciful to allow us HYPERTHYMESIA as a CHOICE.

We can remember everything he has Said- if we want to- or we can forget everything, by default- if we neglect to fight for every memory we have.

(3) THE SCRIPTURAL SYSTEM WORKS JUST FINE!

. JOSHUA 1:8.

8. "This Book of The Law
shall not depart out of thy mouth
but thou shalt meditate therein day and night,
that thou mayest do
according to all that is written therein:
for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous,
and then thou shalt have Good success."

*AWWW!* POOR WIDDLE GENTILES CAN'T KEEP UP?

Sucks to be you!

We have no right to live sub-optimally!

(4) THERE IS NO ISSUE OF "FRAUD" WITH THE SERIOUS.

Yahweh God Commanded all Hebrew to be taught all of His Law by age 13 through 19.

Those who have attained EVERLASTING LIFE will have the ability to penetrate the Perceptual Barriers that block us from seeing the events of the Past.

That is called THE AKASHIC RECORD.

That is why only those two Bible Chapters are important.

If the rest of The Bible were lost, anyone who applied the Principles of those two Chapters could go BOOK OF ELI on The Bible, and get everything back.

Even if they had never read the missing parts before.