Theism? Seriously? EVERYTHING from NOTHING?

[Waiting4evidence]

In a recent post, a theist grossly mischaracterized the atheist position.

Instead of accepting the simple definition that an atheist is one who does not believe in deities, he just made up the definition that an atheist is one who believes that the entire universe came from nothing.

We do not know how the universe came into existence, and we don't even know if the universe ever came into existence.

We make NO conclusion based on our ignorance of the universe's origin.

We do NOT, as per the theist's allegation, say "We don't know, therefore nothing did it". We just say "We don't know, therefore let's not pretend we know, but rather let's try to find out".

So, I am hoping we can put that bogus accusation to rest.


But there is another ramification of the theist's absurd accusation.

He (rightly) claims that it's wronng - given our current knowledge - to hold the dogmatic belief that the universe came from nothing.

At the same time, he believes that an entity much more complex than the universe exists.

So I can't help but ask. If it's absurd to think that something as complex as the universe can come into existence from nothing, then how do you account for the existence of something even more complex than the universe?

How did God come into existence? "You don't know therefore nothing did it"?

Do you see the absurdity of your position, given that you accuse atheists of holding a fatal flaw in their belief, while in reality they do not hold that belief, but you do?

[catalyst]

I also do not believe in a literal resurrection, yet I have remained within the Christian faith. I see the death and resurrection of Christ to be a picture of the spiritual path: death to that which is false within us ( the flesh) and awakening (resurrection) to our true self (the spirit).

That in the "jesus" belief is probably the sanest approach to take, if of course you deem the label of "christian" to BE warranted and valid.

That however does not lend to what "traditional" christianity dictates, but rather of the Marcion approach....which was the Pauline stuff basically, MINUS the sexist drivel.

As you have stated you are pretty much a panentheist, Kayky, I do wonder how and why the "jesus of nazareth" character "fits"?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

I could be wrong, but when you've had a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, it makes that doubtful.

You claim to have a relationship with an individual who died 2,000 years ago, which does tend to establish your potential credentials in the being wrong department. It's not your sincerity that is in question. I'm reasonably sure that the Heaven's Gate people were sincere in their beliefs as well. The question is, does believing that there is an alien space ship hiding behind a comet which will scoop up the souls of the true believers make any more sense then you believing you have an invisible friend who died 2,000 years ago but came back to life and flew away? Do you at least understand how that effects your credibility?

You would have a right to say whatever you want, I would reply Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." He was liar, lunatic or Lord.

Actually it was the author of the Gospel of John who wrote those words, many decades after Jesus was dead. Which does tend to let Jesus of the hook of the "liar, lunatic or Lord" charge. So was the author of Gospel John a liar or a lunatic? Well is there any possibility that he was someone who, in a different time, might have been convinced that an alien spaceship was coming to take him to the stars? Do you notice no correlation between foolish nonsense and a certain lunatic fringe?

[cnorman18]

So you're position is that Jews are infallible on this subject? 

We have discussed this before, and you know better.

I don't recall it, and you seem a bit testy. This IS a religion forum. 

You don't recall ANY of these conversations, where you and I discussed this very same issue?

Did Christianity Inspire the Holocaust?

Converting Jews

Bible and "god" sanction killing / murder

Explain my lack of understanding of Jesus.

Okaaay....

My position is that the tenets of the Jewish religion are determined by Jews and not by non-Jews, just as the tenets of the Christian religion are determined by Christians and not by non-Christians. 

Among the tenets of the Jewish religion are the criteria by which the Jewish Messiah is to be identified.

According to those tenets, which, again, are to be determined by Jews and no one else, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. 

I have said, and very many times, that Jesus may very well have been Christ and Savior for Gentiles (which terms have different meanings than the Jewish term "Messiah"). That is not for me to say, but I have no argument with the beliefs that Christians hold, for Christians. 

I DO have an argument with Christians who claim the right to dictate the proper beliefs for Jews, and declare that Jews must hold the same beliefs as themselves. 

Is it YOUR position that Christians -- and specifically YOU -- are infallible when it comes to determining the tenets of the Jewish faith?

I could be wrong, but when you've had a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, it makes that doubtful.

We are not talking about your personal experiences or your personal beliefs, on which I have no comment and to which I have no objection. We are talking about the tenets of the Jewish religion. You have no right and no warrant to presume to dictate them or to demand that they be changed to suit either yourself, your personal interpretation of Scripture, or the interpretation preached by your sect.

Yes, that is true. Are you claiming to be a Prophet of God and declaring the Jews of today to be stiff-necked and apostate as well? Are you claiming that Christians, and again specifically YOU, have the right to dictate the proper beliefs of Jews, and to demand that we abandon our own beliefs and accept your own or else go to Hell? 

That is exactly what Jesus Christ said. It was to a very religious Jew, Nicodemus, that He said, "You must be born again." This makes your theory that He was savior of only gentiles nonsensical.

I note that you have, as expected, refused to honestly answer the direct question, but have once again resorted to vague allusion, innuendo, and hint.

I have no "theory." I have offered a speculation, nothing more. I made, and make, no claims of fact about it. What Christians believe is their business; but we Jews need no "savior." I won't argue the Christian interpretation of OT proof-texts with you; the FACT is that there is no significant hint of anything like that in all of Jewish history or tradition. If that were the center and meaning of the Jewish religion before Jesus showed up, one would think it would be featured a bit more prominently in the Bible -- and that we Jews would have generally known about it.

The Messiah was never conceived nor expected to be a "savior from sin." Nor God Incarnate, nor Son of God, nor to rise from the dead. I have no objections, as I keep saying, to Christians believing those things about Jesus; but they aren't part of Jewish belief, teaching or tradition, and no one has the right to claim that they are or ever were.

One of my chief objections to your posts is that they assume either (1) Jews are too stupid to understand their own religion and have been for millennia, or (2) that we secretly know that Jesus really was the Messiah but obstinately and dishonestly refuse to admit it. These are both contemptible insults. If I am wrong, and there is ANOTHER assumption that lies behind your preaching, please explain it to me. On the other hand, if either of those represent what you actually believe about Jews, please have the courage and plain honesty to say so, straight out, without ducking and hiding and hinting.

We don't "have to" do anything of the kind.  Again; according to the tenets of the Jewish religion, the Messiah has not yet come.  Not just Jesus; any Messiah. And you have no right and no warrant to demand or even advise us that we "have to" do anything at all. 

The Messiah will be of a certain tribe, yet today no Jew knows their tribe due to the destruction of the temple records. That is why I said the Messiah must be someone who lived prior to AD 70.

You apparently don't understand that Jewish beliefs have changed considerably since the first century, nor that, according to OUR traditions, they are supposed to. Perhaps the Messiah isn't coming; some rabbis have speculated that the time for the Messiah has passed. Perhaps new genealogical records will be discovered; perhaps the Messiah will be of that lineage, but unable to prove it -- nothing in Scripture indicates that he's supposed to present his breeding papers. In any case, you don't get to dictate to God either.

If I told you that we Jews had the right to determine the tenets of the Christian religion, and to demand that you alter them in order to make them the same as ours, would you agree -- or would you claim that Christians are "infallible" on the subject of what Christians ought to believe, and that non-Christians have no right to demand that those beliefs be changed? 

You would have a right to say whatever you want, I would reply Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." He was liar, lunatic or Lord.

In other words, you would affirm your own beliefs as your own beliefs, while saying that others have the right to believe what they like, but do not have the right to make you change yours, or to claim that your beliefs are other than what they actually are. Does that not about cover it? With which part of that would you disagree?

That is precisely what I have done here, is it not?

And now the most important question of all: 

Will you actually ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS AND RESPOND TO THESE POINTS, or will you delete and ignore them and resume your preaching? 

And you're not preaching on behalf of your beliefs?

Of course not.

I haven't told YOU that you have to believe ANYTHING, in order to be "saved," as you have told me; nor have I told you that you must change the things that you believe, or that the things you believe are false or wrong, again as you have told me.

I am, as you just said YOU would in the face of an attack similar to your own, affirming my own beliefs as my own and affirming that you may believe differently if and as you like.

[East of Eden]

I also do not believe in a literal resurrection, yet I have remained within the Christian faith. I see the death and resurrection of Christ to be a picture of the spiritual path: death to that which is false within us ( the flesh) and awakening (resurrection) to our true self (the spirit).

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

I Cor. 15:17

[cnorman18]

Bears repeating, I think:

So you're position is that Jews are infallible on this subject? 

We have discussed this before, and you know better.

I don't recall it, and you seem a bit testy. This IS a religion forum. 

You don't recall ANY of these conversations, where you and I discussed this very same issue?

Did Christianity Inspire the Holocaust?

Converting Jews

Bible and "god" sanction killing / murder

Explain my lack of understanding of Jesus.

Okaaay....

My position is that the tenets of the Jewish religion are determined by Jews and not by non-Jews, just as the tenets of the Christian religion are determined by Christians and not by non-Christians. 

Among the tenets of the Jewish religion are the criteria by which the Jewish Messiah is to be identified.

According to those tenets, which, again, are to be determined by Jews and no one else, Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah. 

I have said, and very many times, that Jesus may very well have been Christ and Savior for Gentiles (which terms have different meanings than the Jewish term "Messiah"). That is not for me to say, but I have no argument with the beliefs that Christians hold, for Christians. 

I DO have an argument with Christians who claim the right to dictate the proper beliefs for Jews, and declare that Jews must hold the same beliefs as themselves. 

Is it YOUR position that Christians -- and specifically YOU -- are infallible when it comes to determining the tenets of the Jewish faith?

I could be wrong, but when you've had a relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, it makes that doubtful.

We are not talking about your personal experiences or your personal beliefs, on which I have no comment and to which I have no objection. We are talking about the tenets of the Jewish religion. You have no right and no warrant to presume to dictate them or to demand that they be changed to suit either yourself, your personal interpretation of Scripture, or the interpretation preached by your sect.

Yes, that is true. Are you claiming to be a Prophet of God and declaring the Jews of today to be stiff-necked and apostate as well? Are you claiming that Christians, and again specifically YOU, have the right to dictate the proper beliefs of Jews, and to demand that we abandon our own beliefs and accept your own or else go to Hell? 

That is exactly what Jesus Christ said. It was to a very religious Jew, Nicodemus, that He said, "You must be born again." This makes your theory that He was savior of only gentiles nonsensical.

I note that you have, as expected, refused to honestly answer the direct question, but have once again resorted to vague allusion, innuendo, and hint.

I have no "theory." I have offered a speculation, nothing more. I made, and make, no claims of fact about it. What Christians believe is their business; but we Jews need no "savior." I won't argue the Christian interpretation of OT proof-texts with you; the FACT is that there is no significant hint of anything like that in all of Jewish history or tradition. If that were the center and meaning of the Jewish religion before Jesus showed up, one would think it would be featured a bit more prominently in the Bible -- and that we Jews would have generally known about it.

The Messiah was never conceived nor expected to be a "savior from sin." Nor God Incarnate, nor Son of God, nor to rise from the dead. I have no objections, as I keep saying, to Christians believing those things about Jesus; but they aren't part of Jewish belief, teaching or tradition, and no one has the right to claim that they are or ever were.

One of my chief objections to your posts is that they assume either (1) Jews are too stupid to understand their own religion and have been for millennia, or (2) that we secretly know that Jesus really was the Messiah but obstinately and dishonestly refuse to admit it. These are both contemptible insults. If I am wrong, and there is ANOTHER assumption that lies behind your preaching, please explain it to me. On the other hand, if either of those represent what you actually believe about Jews, please have the courage and plain honesty to say so, straight out, without ducking and hiding and hinting.

We don't "have to" do anything of the kind.  Again; according to the tenets of the Jewish religion, the Messiah has not yet come.  Not just Jesus; any Messiah. And you have no right and no warrant to demand or even advise us that we "have to" do anything at all. 

The Messiah will be of a certain tribe, yet today no Jew knows their tribe due to the destruction of the temple records. That is why I said the Messiah must be someone who lived prior to AD 70.

You apparently don't understand that Jewish beliefs have changed considerably since the first century, nor that, according to OUR traditions, they are supposed to. Perhaps the Messiah isn't coming; some rabbis have speculated that the time for the Messiah has passed. Perhaps new genealogical records will be discovered; perhaps the Messiah will be of that lineage, but unable to prove it -- nothing in Scripture indicates that he's supposed to present his breeding papers. In any case, you don't get to dictate to God either.

If I told you that we Jews had the right to determine the tenets of the Christian religion, and to demand that you alter them in order to make them the same as ours, would you agree -- or would you claim that Christians are "infallible" on the subject of what Christians ought to believe, and that non-Christians have no right to demand that those beliefs be changed? 

You would have a right to say whatever you want, I would reply Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." He was liar, lunatic or Lord.

In other words, you would affirm your own beliefs as your own beliefs, while saying that others have the right to believe what they like, but do not have the right to make you change yours, or to claim that your beliefs are other than what they actually are. Does that not about cover it? With which part of that would you disagree?

That is precisely what I have done here, is it not?

And now the most important question of all: 

Will you actually ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS AND RESPOND TO THESE POINTS, or will you delete and ignore them and resume your preaching? 

And you're not preaching on behalf of your beliefs?

Of course not.

I haven't told YOU that you have to believe ANYTHING, in order to be "saved," as you have told me; nor have I told you that you must change the things that you believe, or that the things you believe are false or wrong, again as you have told me.

I am, as you just said YOU would in the face of an attack similar to your own, affirming my own beliefs as my own and affirming that you may believe differently if and as you like.