Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Post #111

Post by Inigo Montoya »

I plead guilty to understatement – done quite deliberately. In my opinion and experience, ninety yards of ground can be "surrendered" to Apologetics on a 100 yard playing field (of debate) without risk of a "touchdown" or even a "field goal."
Ha! Here, let's lower the basket to dunking height..

Why won't anyone take my bait?

All of this long-winded defense on the resurrection is "justified" by the presupposition that a particular god exists and/or that the Bible is.. factually.. accurate..

I submit no apologetics would take place on a man being raised from the dead otherwise.

Someone tear that apart, please.
Last edited by Inigo Montoya on Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

liamconnor
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #112

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 1 by Regens Küchl]

Let me understand: the question is why no one alive was buried with a corpse with a stone rolled in front of it thereby sealing their own fate?

Or is the question, "Why didn't God make give better evidence?" The implication is that if we had a detailed description of the process of "being raised" then everyone, obviously, would believe....



...would you believe if there were a gospel claiming that? There are narratives that describe healings quite vividly. Do you believe them?


My guess is, what really bothers you is theological and not historical. Underlying your specific question is really the age old question of why God relates to humans in general as (claimed by Christians) he does. It can be put in a paragraph "Why doesn't this supposed god make me believe in him? I mean, if I were god, I would make people believe in me"

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LilytheTheologian
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Post #113

Post by LilytheTheologian »

[Replying to post 108 by Zzyzx]

Of course I can explain why Jesus cannot be a myth. Many 20th, and now 21st century persons who are not theologians have lost their faith by making the false assumption that the stories that surround the historical Jesus are myth. They cite the "historical-critical method" and "higher criticism" as reasons for reducing (in their mind) the NT to a melange of myth and mysticism. So, why couldn't Christ be a myth, like the myth that grew up around the Buddha stating that he was a god? Overdone hero worship does tend to mythologize the idol, so wouldn't that be a reasonable explanation for the data surrounding the life of Jesus?

No. In fact, the data themselves make the myth scenario impossible.

1. If we approach the NT with the same neutral, objective, and scientific approach with which we approach every other ancient document, the NT proves to be the most reliable of all. No book in history has been attacked, cut-up, reconstructed, and stood on its head as much as the NT, and yet it lives, and furthermore, the story, written over many years, holds together.

2. The state of the NT manuscripts is very good. Compared with all other ancient documents, the NT stands up at 10x more sure. For example, there exist 500 copies that can be dated earlier than 500 CE. The next most reliable of ancient texts is Homer's ILIAD, and we have only 50 copies of that that date from 500 years or less of its origin. We have only one copy of Tacitus' ANNALS, yet no one is reluctant to treat that as AUTHENTIC history. If the books of the NT did not contain accounts of miracles or a portrait of a man who was both 100% God and 100% human, no scholar - and probably no lay person - would be even tempted to treat it with the slightest degree of skepticism. Therefore, we can see it is NOT objective science that introduces myth into the life of Jesus and the NT, but subjective prejudice and personal bad theology. The NT mss. in our collective possession are not only ancient, they are mutually reinforcing and consistent, for the most part. There are very few discrepancies and NO important ones. Yes, Matthew and Luke do write different Nativities, and Jesus' ministry is given at one year plus in one gospel and three years plus in another, but in the important theological data, they are totally consistent. And these are texts written by different people, at different times, and in different places, for different audiences. In addition, the other ancient texts that have been discovered, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls, have confirmed rather than refuted the NT data.

3. If Jesus' divinity was a myth invented by later generations of the Church, then there had to be 2-3 generations between the eyewitnesses of the historical Jesus and the universal belief in the new, mythologized Jesus, otherwise the myth could have never taken shape because it would have been immediately refuted by Jesus' eyewitnesses. Both followers and enemies of Jesus would have had good reason to expose a myth. However, there exists no evidence whatsoever of anyone - EVER - opposing "the myth of the divinized Jesus." No competent biblical scholar today denies that almost all of the NT was written during the first century. Certainly Paul's letters were a product of the first century and Paul's letters clearly state Christ's divinity.

4. If a mythic layer were added onto an originally human only Jesus, we WOULD find SOME evidence of that mythic layer. Instead, we find absolutely NONE, not internally in the NT, itself, or externally, in other sources, such as Josephus.

5. The gospels are not written in the style of myth. Anyone who is familiar with mythic literary styles can compare the accounts of Jesus to actual myth and see a vast difference. (It is like comparing biography with science fiction today - anyone could see the difference.) The differences are remarkable and unmistakable. Ovid's METAMORPHOSIS is an example of a pagan myth, and it is nothing like the literary style of the NT. The gospel writers did NOT invent modern realistic fantasy 20 centuries ago. Sure, science fiction and fantasy can be replete with detail, but REALISTIC science fiction did not exist in first century anywhere. They include dozens and dozens of little details that someone not living in the first century could not know, and they contain NO second century anachronisms.

6. The claim of Jesus as God makes sense of his trial and crucifixion. The Jews were HIGHLY SENSITIVE to blasphemy, and this sensitivity was unique to them. No one but a Jewish tribunal would insist on death for a claim to be God. For the Romans, the more gods, the merrier. Jesus had no political ambitions, a fact that disappointed some of his followers. His lack of political ambition is the main reason the Jews did not accept him as the long-awaited Messiah; he did not liberate them from the Romans. It was difficult for Jesus to remain apolitical; his followers wanted to proclaim him a king.

7. There are four gospels, as you know. And they were written by different men, in different times, in different places, so a lot of cross-checking is possible. Through textual triangulation, we can know the facts of Jesus' life with FAR GREATER accuracy than any other personage or series of events. The only inaccuracies occur in dates and numbers, e.g. how many angels were seen in the empty tomb, etc.

8. If the divine Jesus of the gospels is a myth, who invented it? The first disciples? A later generation? There can be no possible motive for either to do so. Until the Emperor Constantine converted and issued the Edict of Milan in 313 CE, Christians were persecuted. We DO KNOW THIS even if we can't say with certainty how every apostle died. The early Christians were tortured, martyred, hated, and oppressed. They were fed to lions as sport in the Colosseum. Who goes to a bloody and painful death for a myth? Some of the Christians denied Christ to save themselves from death, but none ever gave him up as a myth. The emperors never even asked them to give him up as a myth, so presumable, even the emperors accepted his divinity. They just didn't like people worshipping him.

9. To study the NT correctly, one has to be conversant with the culture of first century Jerusalem, and I don't know who is and who is not here, however, first century Jews were not prone to believe myth. They were "demythologized" far more than other peoples were, and are. The Jews were adamantly and intolerably opposed to myth. No one on this earth would be LESS like to have confused a myth with fact than a first century Jew

10. Finally, anyone who has read the entire Bible with an OPEN MIND knows that NO MERE MAN could invent the accounts that surround the life of Jesus. Sure, there have been wildly imaginative authors like Tolkien, but even his books do not approach the NT. The entire Bible, written over thousands of years, hangs together as seamlessly as if it had been written in one go by the same man.

I know atheism, wicca, etc. are en vogue today, but that does not make Jesus' divinity untrue. He is 100% man and 100% God. If people WANT to reject God, he allows that. We all have free will. I do not deny anyone's right to reject God, however, as a theologian, I defend the faith when I see it attacked. Some people will believe me, more will not. Remember, only a "small remnant" will be chosen to join Christ in his kingdom. If I am among that "small remnant" then I am very blessed by God's eternal grace.

Note: I owe much of the above to Dr. Peter Kreeft, with whom I studied. Part is mine, part what I learned from him.

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LilytheTheologian
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Post #114

Post by LilytheTheologian »

[Replying to post 111 by Inigo Montoya]

I really don't understand your post. If you are asking why the Resurrection did not take place in front of 1000s, let's suppose it did. The ONLY people who would know it was Jesus would have been those intimately acquainted with him, his friends and confidants. Have you forgotten that his public ministry was limited to a small area and a relatively small amount of time? It isn't like it was being broadcast on television or anything. They didn't have TVs in 1st century Israel. Not that many people knew Jesus' face.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #115

Post by LilytheTheologian »

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Regens Küchl]

Let me understand: the question is why no one alive was buried with a corpse with a stone rolled in front of it thereby sealing their own fate?

Or is the question, "Why didn't God make give better evidence?" The implication is that if we had a detailed description of the process of "being raised" then everyone, obviously, would believe....



...would you believe if there were a gospel claiming that? There are narratives that describe healings quite vividly. Do you believe them?


My guess is, what really bothers you is theological and not historical. Underlying your specific question is really the age old question of why God relates to humans in general as (claimed by Christians) he does. It can be put in a paragraph "Why doesn't this supposed god make me believe in him? I mean, if I were god, I would make people believe in me"
Absolutely right. They cannot accept that God does not do their bidding, but his own.

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Post #116

Post by Danmark »

[Replying to post 113 by LilytheTheologian]

I don't see a single valid argument in this post. It's thesis seems to be, "I studied theology for 12 years, so I'm right." This fallacy is the 'appeal to authority,' and thus carries no weight.

The fact that the gospels all were written after Paul's letters, and some decades after the fact, and by anonymous authors who were promoting church doctrine answers most of your arguments, if not all.

If there were much doubt, the fact that in 3 of the Gospels, Jesus supposedly said he'd "be right back," or at least within a generation [40 years] puts the lie to the claim that he was God.

Kreeft, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kreeft, is hardly the final authority on either church history or theology. His use of the 'trilemma' discredits his use of logic for reasons previously stated. Again, this is merely an appeal to authority.

You might as well say, "It's true because the Church says it's so."

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Post #117

Post by liamconnor »

[Replying to post 116 by Danmark]
If there were much doubt, the fact that in 3 of the Gospels, Jesus supposedly said he'd "be right back," or at least within a generation [40 years] puts the lie to the claim that he was God.
Danmark,

There are a number of things you should be asking before posting something like this:

1) Has no theologian noticed this from 30 AD to present?
2) Why did the church survive when the parousia did not happen soon? Why in fact, do we have almost no ancient attacks against Christianity (from within) on this basis?


Of course these are questions, not arguments. But it is audacious to think that you or other skeptics "found the weak spot", a weak spot that is obvious. I mean, really? Say to yourself "I (or 19th, 20th, 21st c. skeptics) are the first to notice this". Does it sound a little silly?

If your answer to the above questions is, "they were idiots or deluded" then at least recognize whom you are calling idiots and deluded: Augustine, Boethius, Alfred the Great, Aquinas, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton etc. etc. etc. None of them ever noticed the problem of Jesus' claim to a imminent return and the failure of that return? Or they had emotional reasons not to notice it? Galileo (who was part of the clergy and was perfectly fine with opposing centuries of astronomy) was deluded?!

The real answer lies elsewhere. It lies in a better understanding of what "God incarnate" means, and a better analysis of the Scriptures. If you want to inquire in those two things, I will be happy to help you.

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Post #118

Post by Danmark »

liamconnor wrote: [Replying to post 116 by Danmark]
If there were much doubt, the fact that in 3 of the Gospels, Jesus supposedly said he'd "be right back," or at least within a generation [40 years] puts the lie to the claim that he was God.
Danmark,

There are a number of things you should be asking before posting something like this:

1) Has no theologian noticed this from 30 AD to present?
We can start with that one. Yes, the preterist tradition is long and strong. Later works in the New Testament were contrived and given others' names to try and deal with the most embarrassing fact that Jesus did not come back like he'd said.

This has been debated on this forum extensively, including here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=180

I don't wish to distract from the current debate which is about the alleged resurrection, so it would probably be best to discuss it on the referenced sub forum.
Obviously the Church had a very strong bias to try to justify their doctrine after the facts proved it wrong. Jesus failure to return while that generation was still alive, and before some he spoke to "tasted death," is one of the most obvious refutations to orthodox Christianity as maintained by the Roman Catholic church.

In the meantime, I'd appreciate it you didn't tell me who I am and am not calling an "idiot." I'm perfectly capable of making that judgment on my own, if the rules of the forum permitted it. :D
Last edited by Danmark on Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #119

Post by Zzyzx »

.
[Replying to post 113 by LilytheTheologian]

Lily, thank you for the detailed and thorough response. It shows evidence of a great deal of thought and research by both you and your mentor. Kudos to both of you.

Part 1 of 2 response (to reduce length of post – often a problem for me).
LilytheTheologian wrote: Of course I can explain why Jesus cannot be a myth. Many 20th, and now 21st century persons who are not theologians have lost their faith by making the false assumption that the stories that surround the historical Jesus are myth. They cite the "historical-critical method" and "higher criticism" as reasons for reducing (in their mind) the NT to a melange of myth and mysticism.
Modern people abandon Christianity for a wide variety of reasons, some of which are discussed in these threads. OnceConvinced listed nearly 100 reasons, for example.

Some may make false assumptions, some may make true assumptions, some may reject supernaturalism after learning real world cause-and-effect relationships that replace superstition and supernaturalism. For instance, storms / floods / droughts are now known to be normal atmospheric events, not curses from angry gods as claimed by religionists until fairly recently (and some still do).
LilytheTheologian wrote: So, why couldn't Christ be a myth, like the myth that grew up around the Buddha stating that he was a god? Overdone hero worship does tend to mythologize the idol, so wouldn't that be a reasonable explanation for the data surrounding the life of Jesus?

No. In fact, the data themselves make the myth scenario impossible.
Absolute statements are usually difficult to support, but you are welcome to try.
LilytheTheologian wrote: 1. If we approach the NT with the same neutral, objective, and scientific approach with which we approach every other ancient document, the NT proves to be the most reliable of all. No book in history has been attacked, cut-up, reconstructed, and stood on its head as much as the NT, and yet it lives, and furthermore, the story, written over many years, holds together.
I maintain that the Bible "lives" because it is the basis of a popular religion – not because it presents truthful and useful information. Without the religion and the endorsement of Roman emperors I see no reason to conclude that the Bible and the Jesus Movement would be anything more than a footnote in history, if that.
LilytheTheologian wrote: 2. The state of the NT manuscripts is very good. Compared with all other ancient documents, the NT stands up at 10x more sure. For example, there exist 500 copies that can be dated earlier than 500 CE.
Are there existing copies earlier than 300 CE? Is it surprising that an official state religion documents would be reproduced in mass between 300 and 500?
LilytheTheologian wrote: The next most reliable of ancient texts is Homer's ILIAD, and we have only 50 copies of that that date from 500 years or less of its origin. We have only one copy of Tacitus' ANNALS, yet no one is reluctant to treat that as AUTHENTIC history. If the books of the NT did not contain accounts of miracles or a portrait of a man who was both 100% God and 100% human, no scholar - and probably no lay person - would be even tempted to treat it with the slightest degree of skepticism.
Exactly. ALL tales of supernatural entities and events are treated skeptically – but some choose to say "Except my favorite tales which are true."
LilytheTheologian wrote: Therefore, we can see it is NOT objective science that introduces myth into the life of Jesus and the NT, but subjective prejudice and personal bad theology.
Science does not pretend to investigate invisible, undetectable, unverifiable subjects. However, science can investigate claims such as long-dead bodies coming back to life.
LilytheTheologian wrote: The NT mss. in our collective possession are not only ancient, they are mutually reinforcing and consistent, for the most part. There are very few discrepancies and NO important ones.
Some science fiction stories are internally consistent with separate chapters that reinforce each other. If one did not know they were intended as fiction and fantasy would consistency and reinforcement provide evidence that the tales are true and accurate?
LilytheTheologian wrote: Yes, Matthew and Luke do write different Nativities, and Jesus' ministry is given at one year plus in one gospel and three years plus in another, but in the important theological data, they are totally consistent. And these are texts written by different people, at different times, and in different places, for different audiences. In addition, the other ancient texts that have been discovered, e.g. the Dead Sea Scrolls, have confirmed rather than refuted the NT data.
Do Christian scholars and theologians acknowledge that the gospel writers (whoever they may have been) copied from one another or from other sources?
LilytheTheologian wrote: 3. If Jesus' divinity was a myth invented by later generations of the Church, then there had to be 2-3 generations between the eyewitnesses of the historical Jesus and the universal belief in the new, mythologized Jesus, otherwise the myth could have never taken shape because it would have been immediately refuted by Jesus' eyewitnesses.
The Jesus story took shape AWAY from its origins geographically, chronologically and religiously. It developed as a competitive splinter group from Judaism in a form that was acceptable to Gentiles (and Roman authorities) and was spread outside the strongholds of Judaism.

Who in Rome or elsewhere in the Mediterranean area would have been a witness to the events described in gospel tales?
LilytheTheologian wrote: Both followers and enemies of Jesus would have had good reason to expose a myth. However, there exists no evidence whatsoever of anyone - EVER - opposing "the myth of the divinized Jesus."
Is this arguing that "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" – a classic error in logic?
LilytheTheologian wrote: No competent biblical scholar today denies that almost all of the NT was written during the first century.
End of first century was seventy (70) years after the storied events and conversations. Correct?
LilytheTheologian wrote: Certainly Paul's letters were a product of the first century and Paul's letters clearly state Christ's divinity.
Paul/Saul was NOT an eyewitness to any of the events or conversations in the life of Jesus. He is claimed (largely by the author of Acts, whoever that may have been) to have "met" Jesus in a "vision" (or hallucination, or delusion, or fabrication, or whatever it was).
LilytheTheologian wrote: 4. If a mythic layer were added onto an originally human only Jesus, we WOULD find SOME evidence of that mythic layer. Instead, we find absolutely NONE, not internally in the NT, itself, or externally, in other sources, such as Josephus.
Again, the logical error "absence of evidence is evidence of absence."
LilytheTheologian wrote: 5. The gospels are not written in the style of myth. Anyone who is familiar with mythic literary styles can compare the accounts of Jesus to actual myth and see a vast difference. (It is like comparing biography with science fiction today - anyone could see the difference.)
Could a clever writer present myth as though it was biography? I think I could. Of course, it would not be perfectly free of at least minor discrepancies, inconsistencies, errors – right? Just like the gospel stories.

A skeptic might point out such things as indication that my work was not biographically or historically accurate. Right? Just like the gospel stories.

If someone copied parts of my work and added their own twists and turns (or we both copied earlier works), our stories would "reinforce" one another. Right? Just like the gospel stories.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #120

Post by LilytheTheologian »

[Replying to post 116 by Danmark]

I see you’ve misinterpreted Jesus’ words, which is not uncommon for a modern reader to do. Luke 9:27 says, “But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.�

To a modern reader this does seem like Jesus is saying that his Second Coming will take place within 40 years (a generation to a Jew). (It seems curious to me that one who rejects Jesus’ divinity and thus his resurrection takes it for granted that he did, indeed “say� something after death.)

The coming of the kingdom, i.e. the establishment of the Church and the Second Coming are both very densely layered ideas in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. In Luke, it is important to note that the saying I quoted at the beginning of this post is immediately followed by this:

“28 Now about eight days after these sayings he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, and when they wakened they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. 33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, ‘Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah’ not knowing what he said. 34 As he said this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’ 36 And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silence and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.�

Jesus is not speaking of the end of human history, but of the end of the Jewish Age and the establishment of Christianity and his Church. If you read Koine Greek that would be clear to you. If you do read Koine Greek, and you may, I do not know if you do or not, it should be clear. Translators do their best, but things ARE lost in translation, as they always are.

Some – like you seem to be doing – argue that Jesus was talking about the establishment of his kingdom here on earth after the Second Coming and the end of human history, but such is not the case.

And BTW, the mention of the “eighth day� is not an accident or a lie. The “Eighth Day� is the day of the Resurrection and the inauguration of the kingdom of God.

“Parousia� is a word that confuses modern readers. A “parousia� is nothing more than a term used for a king who enters a city with his royal entourage, something I assume you know. It does not necessary mean the Second Coming of God, though I admit, that is how it is usually used. Jesus made a parousia on Palm Sunday, when he entered Jerusalem in exactly the way Solomon had done a thousand years before. He comes to his followers each time the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated.

Modern unbelievers like to point to Matthew 24 and say Christ said he would return within 40 years, however, they are misinterpreting. After describing what sounds like the siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE, but also like the end of human history, Jesus says:

“Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.�

HAVE heaven and earth passed away? No, not yet. HAS Jesus' word passed away? No, it has not. In the next verse, Jesus says:

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.�

So, when is the end of human history? Jesus says he doesn’t know. If ever ONE THING Jesus said that the apostles would NOT invent, it is that. God is omniscient; God knows all. Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, yet he does not know when the end of the world will come. (When one considers that Jesus “became man� it is not so difficult to reconcile this not knowing with his divinity. And if you don’t believe him divine, then you don’t believe he said this, since it was said post-Resurrection. In his human incarnation, Jesus had to think as we do, discursively, etc.)

Jesus was not talking about the end of human history in the passage you reference. He was walking about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, which was extremely important to Jews, something that did, indeed, occur within 40 years. It is mixed with “end of the world� imagery because it WAS the end of an age or a world. It was the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New. HAS Jesus' Church been established on earth? Yes. And it has been continuous since its establishment. The Roman Catholic Church has the longest unbroken history of any institution on earth. Although only a "small remnant" may remain when human history does end, it will not pass out of human history.

For pious Jews the Temple was a microcosm of the entire cosmos; for the followers of Jesus, it was the image of his Body (“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.�) To be sure, it is a prefiguration of what will be fulfilled on “that day," but Jesus was not talking specifically about "that day."

So, in truth and in fact, Jesus never really said anything at all about when the Second Coming would occur except that he, himself, in his earthly incarnation, did not know, and that humanity should be ready at all times “for you do not know the day or the hour.�

All of that is "Bible Study 101," and I really believe you know that Jesus was talking about the end of the Old Covenant and the institution of the New. Your posts indicate your knowledge even if you are a non-believer or believe we assume too much about God.

I only answer questions posed to me. I do not try to convert anyone or change anyone's mind. God gave everyone the free will to reject him. Who am I to take that away? No one. I am a servant of God who relies on him for every minute of my life.

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