Was TF inserted?

[achilles12604]

Goat is of the opinion that the Testimonium Flavianum, attributed to Josephus was a total invention and insertion by Christian copiests. I of course do not think so. I think that it was originally penned by Josephus but was "doctored" by later copies.

So I invite the original view to present its case. Then I shall rebut.

[Goat]

.
Achilles, although I am NOT a bible scholar or historian and I have little interest in whether the TF was inserted rather than modified, I note a glaring defect in at least one of your arguments.

First both of these contain the phrase "At this time there was . . . . "

This phrase is used by Josephus over and over. In fact he wrote it at least 4 times in this chapter alone. He uses it to the point of being able to trade mark these words.

These word are certainly indicitive of Josephus.

Why do you conclude that the inclusion of that phrase is “indicative of Josephus” (or suggests authenticity)?

Would it be surprising that ANY reasonably intelligent inserter or forger would use phrases characteristic of the writing that was being changed or forged? Are you assuming that a forger / inserter must be stupid enough to not be able to comprehend that using characteristic phrases would make the forgery / insertion appear more authentic?

This is a blatant example of begging the question. I guess that the last 7 Chronicals of Narnia were also forged by someonewho very cleverly used similar phrases and words to CS Lewis.

Come now, unless you can prove the conspiracy, you can hardly claim that SIMILAR wording is evidence AGAINST Josephus authorship.

No, but , as I had pointed out, there are a lot of words that are not like Josephus, but rather like Eusebius. From http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... l#spurious



# Steve Mason indicates several ways in which the Testimonium deviates from Josephan style.

First, Mason writes:

It uses words in ways that are not characteristic of Josephus. For example, the word translated "worker" in the phrase "worker of incredible deeds" is poietes in Greek, from which we get "poet." Etymologically, it means "one who does" and so it can refer to any sort of "doer." But in Josephus' day it had already come to have special reference to literary poets, and that is how he consistently uses it elsewhere (nine times) - to speak of Greek poets like Homer. (p. 169)

Second, Mason observes:

Notice further that the phrase "they did not cease" has to be completed by the translator, for it is left incomplete in the text; the action which his followers ceased must be understood from the preceding phrase. This is as peculiar in Greek as it is in English, and such a construction is not found elsewhere in Josephus' writing. (p. 169)

Third, Mason argues:

Again, the phrase "the tribe of the Christians" is peculiar. Josephus uses the word "tribe" (phyle) eleven other times. Once it denotes "gender," and once a "swarm" of locusts, but usually signfies distinct people, races, or nationalities: the Jews are a "tribe" (War 3.354; 7.327) as are the Taurians (War 2.366) and Parthians (War 2.379). It is very strange that Josephus should speak of the Christians as a distinct racial group, since he has just said that Jesus was a Jew condemned by Jewish leaders. (Notice, however, that some Christian authors of a later period came to speak of Christianity as a "third race.") (pp. 169-170)

Finally, there is a peculiarity with the reference to the "principal men among us." Josephus elsewhere refers to the "principal men," but Josephus consistently refers to the principal men "of Jerusalem" or "of the city," using these phrases instead of the first person plural. In his autobiography, Josephus refers to the "principal men of the city" (2), "the principal men of Jerusalem" (7), the "principal men of the city" (12), the "principal men belonging to the city" (12), the "principal men of the city" (12), and the "principal men of Jerusalem" (44). In each case Josephus identifies the leading men as belonging to Jerusalem.

# Ken Olson indicates several ways in which the Testimonium aligns with the style and argument of Eusebius of Caesarea.

Olson writes:

In Adversus Hieroclem Eusebius argued that if he had to accept the supernatural feats attributed to Apollonius, he must regard him as a GOHS [wizard] rather than a wise man (A.H. 5); here he has Josephus call Jesus a 'wise man' and thus, implicitly, not a GOHS.

Olson states:

The term PARADOXWN ERGWN POIHTHS is markedly Eusebian. POIHTHS never occurs in Josephus in the sense of "maker" rather than "poet," and the only time Josephus combines forms of PARADOXOS and POIHW it is in the sense of "acting contrary to custom" (A.J. 12.87) rather than "making miracles." Combining forms of PARADOXOS and POIHW in the sense of "miracle-making" is exceedingly common in Eusebius, but he seems to reserve the three words PARADOXOS, POIHW, and ERGON, used together, to describe Jesus (D.E. 114-115, 123, 125, H.E. 1.2.23)

Olson argues:

Eusebius' opponents were not denying that Jesus was crucified by the Roman and Jewish authorities; this was probably a main part of their argument that Jesus was a GOHS. Eusebius, however, cleverly inverts this argument. If Jesus had been a deceiver, and his followers had been deceivers, would not self-interest have compelled them to abandon his teachings after they had witnessed the manner of his death at the hands of the authorities? The fact that they did not abandon Jesus after witnessing the punishments he had brought upon himself can only mean that the disciples had recognized some greater than normal virtue in their teacher. This argument is developed at great length in D.E. 3.5, but I shall quote only a part of it here, "Perhaps you will say that the rest were wizards no less than their guide. Yes - but surely they had all seen the end of their teacher, and the death to which He came. Why then after seeing his miserable end did they stand their ground?" (D.E. 111).

Olson concludes: "the Testimonium follows Eusebius' line of argument in the Demonstratio so closely that it is not only very unlikely that it could have been written by Josephus, but it is unlikely it could have been written by any other Christian, or even by Eusebius for another work. There is nothing in the language or content of the Testimonium, as it appears in the Demonstratio Evangelica, that suggests it is anything other than a completely Eusebian composition."

[achilles12604]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

[Goat]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

Here is his home page http://www.yorku.ca/smason/

and some of the books he wrote do get sold at Christian book stores.

from a blurb about one of his books at a christian web site

Steve Mason is Professor (Humanities & Ancient History) and Canada Research Chair in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Graeco-Roman World, Vanier College, York University, Ontario. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-critical Study, and general editor of Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.

[achilles12604]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

Here is his home page http://www.yorku.ca/smason/

and some of the books he wrote do get sold at Christian book stores.

from a blurb about one of his books at a christian web site

Steve Mason is Professor (Humanities & Ancient History) and Canada Research Chair in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Graeco-Roman World, Vanier College, York University, Ontario. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-critical Study, and general editor of Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.

Good for him. Appeal to authority In an effort to test this particular authority, I took the liberty of critically examining his claims. After all many people with doctorates are as biased and untrustworthy as the people I guard on a daily basis.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=10


See for yourself if his claims ring true.

Post 92- Post 102- Post 112 -

These post still remain unanswered.

[Goat]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

Here is his home page http://www.yorku.ca/smason/

and some of the books he wrote do get sold at Christian book stores.

from a blurb about one of his books at a christian web site

Steve Mason is Professor (Humanities & Ancient History) and Canada Research Chair in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Graeco-Roman World, Vanier College, York University, Ontario. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-critical Study, and general editor of Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.

Good for him. Appeal to authority In an effort to test this particular authority, I took the liberty of critically examining his claims. After all many people with doctorates are as biased and untrustworthy as the people I guard on a daily basis.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=10


See for yourself if his claims ring true.

Post 92- Post 102- Post 112 -

These post still remain unanswered.

You do not know what that logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" is. I am sorry, but
at the current time, you are being irrational enough that i do not wish to futher discuss things with you.

As for 'appeal of authority', let me highlight a specific passage you seem to be overlooking in the web site you are pointing to

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.


How, Steve Mason is a professor who is teaching on this very subject at a university. While that does not PROVE anything, and I am sure that there are many flakes out there who teach at universities, at least his area of expertise DOES cover Josephus.

[achilles12604]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

Here is his home page http://www.yorku.ca/smason/

and some of the books he wrote do get sold at Christian book stores.

from a blurb about one of his books at a christian web site

Steve Mason is Professor (Humanities & Ancient History) and Canada Research Chair in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Graeco-Roman World, Vanier College, York University, Ontario. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-critical Study, and general editor of Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.

Good for him. Appeal to authority In an effort to test this particular authority, I took the liberty of critically examining his claims. After all many people with doctorates are as biased and untrustworthy as the people I guard on a daily basis.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=10


See for yourself if his claims ring true.

Post 92- Post 102- Post 112 -

These post still remain unanswered.

You do not know what that logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" is. I am sorry, but
at the current time, you are being irrational enough that i do not wish to futher discuss things with you.

Of course I am.


Appeal to authority Section 3)

3) There is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the subject in question.

If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority.

ALMOST ANY theological debate has experts on both sides. Hence, the appeal to authority.

What do you think about Mr. Mason's accuracy?

[Goat]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

Here is his home page http://www.yorku.ca/smason/

and some of the books he wrote do get sold at Christian book stores.

from a blurb about one of his books at a christian web site

Steve Mason is Professor (Humanities & Ancient History) and Canada Research Chair in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Graeco-Roman World, Vanier College, York University, Ontario. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-critical Study, and general editor of Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.

Good for him. Appeal to authority In an effort to test this particular authority, I took the liberty of critically examining his claims. After all many people with doctorates are as biased and untrustworthy as the people I guard on a daily basis.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=10


See for yourself if his claims ring true.

Post 92- Post 102- Post 112 -

These post still remain unanswered.

You do not know what that logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" is. I am sorry, but
at the current time, you are being irrational enough that i do not wish to futher discuss things with you.

Of course I am.


Appeal to authority Section 3)

3) There is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the subject in question.

If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority.

ALMOST ANY theological debate has experts on both sides. Hence, the appeal to authority.

What do you think about Mr. Mason's accuracy?

He reason's very well, and is very knowledgeable about his subjects. He seems to have respect of his peers in the field. They might not agree with him, but it appears from my examination, they respect him.

[achilles12604]

'At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

"worker of incredible deeds"

Hmm. Doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate. Shall we move on?

"they did not cease"

Hmm. Still doesn't appear in the version I am putting forth to be fairly accurate.

"the tribe of the Christians"

And again . . .

"principal men among us."

And yet again.



Isn't that interesting. The version I am putting forth doesn't contain ANY of the phrases your "experts" argued against. I wonder. Why didn't you experts attack the rest of the document? Why only these few phrases?

May I offer a guess? Because these phrases stood out so much from the rest of the document that it was bloody obvious that they had been inserted.

I guess I could cite your sources as evidence for my position.

Now how bout addressing the post I actually wrote about phrases which DO appear in both copies rather than beating up that poor scarecrow over there?

Here is his home page http://www.yorku.ca/smason/

and some of the books he wrote do get sold at Christian book stores.

from a blurb about one of his books at a christian web site

Steve Mason is Professor (Humanities & Ancient History) and Canada Research Chair in Cultural Identity and Interaction in the Graeco-Roman World, Vanier College, York University, Ontario. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-critical Study, and general editor of Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.

Good for him. Appeal to authority In an effort to test this particular authority, I took the liberty of critically examining his claims. After all many people with doctorates are as biased and untrustworthy as the people I guard on a daily basis.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... c&start=10


See for yourself if his claims ring true.

Post 92- Post 102- Post 112 -

These post still remain unanswered.

You do not know what that logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" is. I am sorry, but
at the current time, you are being irrational enough that i do not wish to futher discuss things with you.

Of course I am.


Appeal to authority Section 3)

3) There is an adequate degree of agreement among the other experts in the subject in question.

If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority.

ALMOST ANY theological debate has experts on both sides. Hence, the appeal to authority.

What do you think about Mr. Mason's accuracy?

He reason's very well, and is very knowledgeable about his subjects. He seems to have respect of his peers in the field. They might not agree with him, but it appears from my examination, they respect him.

This does nothing to answer what I wrote, but no matter We can move on.


Were you going to addres 92 102 or 112 or shall we continue into a new subject?

[Zzyzx]

.

Come now, unless you can prove the conspiracy, you can hardly claim that SIMILAR wording is evidence AGAINST Josephus authorship.

I made no such claim. I noted that similar wording is not conclusive evidence FOR authenticity because a reasonably intelligent forger or inserter could be expected to make some attempt to duplicate the style of the original.

Do you argue that a forger or inserter could or would NOT have made any attempt to duplicate the style of Josephus?

[achilles12604]

.

Come now, unless you can prove the conspiracy, you can hardly claim that SIMILAR wording is evidence AGAINST Josephus authorship.

I made no such claim. I noted that similar wording is not conclusive evidence FOR authenticity because a reasonably intelligent forger or inserter could be expected to make some attempt to duplicate the style of the original.

Do you argue that a forger or inserter could or would NOT have made any attempt to duplicate the style of Josephus?

In this case I agree. However, as this is a point harped on (incorrectly) by atheist "scholars", I felt obliged to bring it up.

I am happy to move on to other reasons I feel that the TF is authentic. But it seems that every time I bring up a series of proofs, it is ignored by Goat. I cite 92, 102, and 112 as evidence of this assertion.