Is belief a choice?

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

[Bust Nak]

I did not say belief is a choice...

Since belief is dependent on choice, we can conclude that a person can make choices about what they believe.

You also said "a person can choose what they believe."

What exactly is the difference between the following, which ones means the same?

A) Belief is a choice.
B) One can choose what they believe.
C) One can make choices about what they believe.

[KingandPriest]

I did not say belief is a choice...

Since belief is dependent on choice, we can conclude that a person can make choices about what they believe.

You also said "a person can choose what they believe."

What exactly is the difference between the following, which ones means the same?

A) Belief is a choice.
B) One can choose what they believe.
C) One can make choices about what they believe.

Time. The first statement Belief is a choice implies that belief and choice happen instantaneously. It does not take into account time or accumulation.

The second and third statements take time and accumulation into consideration. Statement be describes what is possible. Statement C describes how the process of belief can occur. Statement A does not describe a process. Instead it says choice = belief, which I agree with you is an incorrect statement.

The process of how a person arrives at a belief is just that, a process. Not instantaneous or innate. The process primarily includes decisions as well as environment and other factors.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 120 by KingandPriest]

So how does one choose to believe in God? What actions can one take that will change our belief?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Hello Justin, and other people!

Does anyone really reject God, or is it that they are not convinced of one? I think there is a difference. One mind set opens up to the possibility of God, which really isn't rejecting, its searching for the truth. Rejecting is being closed to the idea that there is a God, even if evidence is presented.

[Talishi]

[Replying to post 120 by KingandPriest]

So how does one choose to believe in God? What actions can one take that will change our belief?

One doesn't choose to believe. Faith is entirely the gift of God, "and that not of ourselves...lest any man should boast," as the famous Pauline teaching goes. If God gives some people the gift of faith, unearned, then it is necessarily implied that God withholds the gift of faith from others, also undeservedly so.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[psychdave]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

Why do people chose to believe in God? More often than not it's because parents/brothers/sisters/respected friend etc told them (sometimes at early age) that God is real. I was brought up with Christian parents and going to church every Sunday and believed what was told me as I trusted my parents. Whilst I still trust my parents categorically, I believe they were misled in their younger years.

Having spent most of my years in Pentecostal churches where indoctrination was much heavier, I began to have my doubts about 10 years ago and a diploma in psychology hi-lighted the fakery and manipulation in play in the church with outrageous and totally unfounded/unproven "testimonies", healings due purely to euphoric experiences (that fade when the experience fades) etc etc. This led to me questioning God/the bible/Christianity etc. Let's be honest if we were to present the bible as definitive factual evidence in a court of law, it would NOT stand up. There is insufficient external evidence to backup the overall majority of the Bible that was written by primitive man years of the events took place. If the Bible can't be fully proven then surely that puts doubt on Christianity as a whole??

[KingandPriest]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

Why do people chose to believe in God? More often than not it's because parents/brothers/sisters/respected friend etc told them (sometimes at early age) that God is real. I was brought up with Christian parents and going to church every Sunday and believed what was told me as I trusted my parents. Whilst I still trust my parents categorically, I believe they were misled in their younger years.

Having spent most of my years in Pentecostal churches where indoctrination was much heavier, I began to have my doubts about 10 years ago and a diploma in psychology hi-lighted the fakery and manipulation in play in the church with outrageous and totally unfounded/unproven "testimonies", healings due purely to euphoric experiences (that fade when the experience fades) etc etc. This led to me questioning God/the bible/Christianity etc. Let's be honest if we were to present the bible as definitive factual evidence in a court of law, it would NOT stand up. There is insufficient external evidence to backup the overall majority of the Bible that was written by primitive man years of the events took place. If the Bible can't be fully proven then surely that puts doubt on Christianity as a whole??

1. You claim that most people believe in God because of influence from family and friends. Fair point, but you also conveniently ignore those who did not have any pressure or prior knowledge about God. There are millions of people around the world who have accepted Christ despite environment. How do you explain these?

2. You assert that you were indoctrinated into a belief in God from family and church and then you were indoctrinated into changing this belief in college. Do you see how the choices you made led to a supposed "change" of beliefs?

[psychdave]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

Why do people chose to believe in God? More often than not it's because parents/brothers/sisters/respected friend etc told them (sometimes at early age) that God is real. I was brought up with Christian parents and going to church every Sunday and believed what was told me as I trusted my parents. Whilst I still trust my parents categorically, I believe they were misled in their younger years.

Having spent most of my years in Pentecostal churches where indoctrination was much heavier, I began to have my doubts about 10 years ago and a diploma in psychology hi-lighted the fakery and manipulation in play in the church with outrageous and totally unfounded/unproven "testimonies", healings due purely to euphoric experiences (that fade when the experience fades) etc etc. This led to me questioning God/the bible/Christianity etc. Let's be honest if we were to present the bible as definitive factual evidence in a court of law, it would NOT stand up. There is insufficient external evidence to backup the overall majority of the Bible that was written by primitive man years of the events took place. If the Bible can't be fully proven then surely that puts doubt on Christianity as a whole??

1. You claim that most people believe in God because of influence from family and friends. Fair point, but you also conveniently ignore those who did not have any pressure or prior knowledge about God. There are millions of people around the world who have accepted Christ despite environment. How do you explain these?

2. You assert that you were indoctrinated into a belief in God from family and church and then you were indoctrinated into changing this belief in college. Do you see how the choices you made led to a supposed "change" of beliefs?

Thanks for the reply.

On question 1) Whilst I believe more people become Christians through people they know, yes a number do become Christians through their own searching. Man is always looking for solutions to life's ups and downs and many see Christianity and other religions as that solution. Religion puts some order in their chaotic life and gives them new friends and a sense of belonging rather than just a belief in a God and the bible.

This in itself is NOT a bad thing, however from my experience many people use Christianity as an excuse for not being self-sufficient more like a "good luck charm", for example "I need a job" or "I have a particular problem" and the typical answer is "I'll just pray about it".... Never mind job hunting or facing the problem head on. To me believing in any religion is a psychological process and is a placebo. If I believe wholeheartedly that a tree is anointed and place my hands on it daily and am convinced good things are happening to me, my state of mind will be elevated (as I wholeheartedly believe) and I conveniently forget the bad things that happen too me, which is much like Christian faith - testify all the good things that happen but forget all the bad stuff.

On question 2) I'm 49 and only started studying psychology 10 years or so ago, so I wasn't indoctrinated in college. I had some doubts about Christianity which really started from seeing charlatan televangelists and got me researching the whole thing, starting with studying the Azusa street revivals of the early 1900's. From here I was able to see how much fakery there was in the pentecostal churches with people prophesying (or prophelying)on a Sunday and back to their normal sinful lifestyles on a Monday with the annointing purely being people moving into a hypnotic type theta state where they can be strongly influenced. Check out British mentalist/magician Derren Brown's miracles for sale for examples of this.

[Kenisaw]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Hello Justin, and other people!

Does anyone really reject God, or is it that they are not convinced of one? I think there is a difference. One mind set opens up to the possibility of God, which really isn't rejecting, its searching for the truth. Rejecting is being closed to the idea that there is a God, even if evidence is presented.

As always Ped makes a comment that made be think a bunch. Well done again Ped.

I think by the way you define your terms you make your point, but I would like to add that rejection to a scientific mind is not a permanent thing. As there is always the possibility of new or updated information, there is always a possibility of a change in conclusion. So a rejection is defined differently in my wold than in yours.

As it relates specifically to the Christain god, I do reject that particular being entirely due to the multitude of logical contradictions that make it impossible for it to exist as defined in th bible. Some gods are still technically possible, although at this time I see no reason to consider any of them as plausible.

[Bust Nak]

The process of how a person arrives at a belief is just that, a process. Not instantaneous or innate. The process primarily includes decisions as well as environment and other factors.

Okay, can you confirm that you agree with the follow:
a) I can choose to go to church.
b) I can choose to read the Bible.
c) While a) and b) could lead me to believe in God, I cannot choose to believe in God.