God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[JehovahsWitness]

It's not a matter of several readings, it's a matter of the specifics of your belief (i.e that non-believers are given a second chance on earth) is not mentioned anywhere.

This is true, you are correct, this is what I deduce from this scripture. You are right, the words I used are not specifically in the scripture.

But suppose this were true...

Okay

But suppose this were true... suppose all atheists are given a second chance to repent if their crime is disbelief.

The bible doesn't specifically say that the "wicked" are atheists, I'm not sure that the word atheist is mentioned in the bible at all.

But [...] suppose all atheists are given a second chance to repent if their crime is disbelief.

Okay, I'll go along ...

What would be the point? Suppose an atheist is an otherwise good man in every way. God resurrects him and judges him for his disbelief. He stands before God for his crime of disbelief. As he stands before God, he immediately believes and is no longer guilty of the crime of disbelief.

Well I think it would be mighty hard to remain an atheist while talking to God, don't you?

It makes no sense whatsoever for this to be condemned if you are immediately innocent the moment you go to trial for it

I don't think there is a scripture that says "disbelief is a crime". I suppose there may be one but I cannot think of it - are you deducing this from scriptures that don't use those actual words?

In any case, you are right, it doesn't make sense to bring someone back from the dead and judge them on a basis that will immediately disappear the moment they appear for judgement.

That is one (of several) reason why I personaly do not believe that is what should be deduced from the scripture in Rev 20:12.


JW






JW

[Justin108]

I'm not sure that the word atheist is mentioned in the bible at all.

The exact word is irrelevant. The Bible mentions non-believers. I suppose all this does is include anyone who is not a Christian including Hindus, Buddhists, etc. as non-believers. I'm just using atheists as an example.

What would be the point? Suppose an atheist is an otherwise good man in every way. God resurrects him and judges him for his disbelief. He stands before God for his crime of disbelief. As he stands before God, he immediately believes and is no longer guilty of the crime of disbelief.

Well I think it would be mighty hard to remain an atheist while talking to God, don't you?

That's exactly my point. Everyone will eventually be innocent of this crime so why make it a crime at all if you automatically repent during judgement? Everyone will essentially become innocent of this crime the moment they are judged for it. Why not just send a moral atheist to heaven directly instead of God's "court"?

I don't think there is a scripture that says "disbelief is a crime".

crime
krm/Submit
noun
1.
an action or omission which constitutes an offence and is punishable by law.

Mark 16:16 states all non-believers are condemned. If you don't like the word "crime", feel free to substitute every instance of it with "condemnable". So my question is why is disbelief condemnable?

are you deducing this from scriptures that don't use those actual words?

No I'm substituting words with others that are practically synonyms. The difference between what I do and what you do is that if I reverse my interpretation, the meaning doesn't change. If you reverse your interpretation, your conclusion (the ignorant and disadvantaged are given another chance) falls away completely.

In any case, you are right, it doesn't make sense to bring someone back from the dead and judge them on a basis that will immediately disappear the moment they appear for judgement.

That is one (of several) reason why I personaly do not believe that is what should be deduced from the scripture in Rev 20:12

Ok what do you suspect happens to a moral atheist after death? Does he go to heaven? To hell? Does he get judged for his atheism, thereby repeating the process described here? What happens to this atheist?

[Justin108]

They benefit from the faith of their father, sure. But it is Abraham who received the blessing, which included a blessing for his children. If you love someone, you take care of their loved ones, their children, their offspring as well.

It doesn't matter who the one is to receive the blessing. The process of him receiving this blessing lead to an unfair advantage of others. If God were perfectly fair and just, this advantage would not have happened. Why not give everyone on earth this same advantage? Why not appear to everyone as he did to Abraham?

That was the covenant made with Abraham due to his faith. How is that not fair?

Why do I need to repeat myself?

Abraham's children DO NOT DESERVE THIS BLESSING. They did NOTHING to receive it. Them having this blessing is unfair. Them having an advantage not afforded to someone not born from Abraham's seed is unfair. God could either have appeared to everyone as he did to Abraham (which would be fair) or he could have explained to Abraham that he will not bless his children because doing so would be unfair. If Abraham was truly just, he would understand. You make it sound as though God was forced to bless Abraham's children? He did Abraham a favor and this favor was unfair.

You want that kind of covenant, or to be in that kind of covenant, then what is stopping you? The covenant with Christ offers a promise for you and for your children.

What's stopping me is the fact that I do not believe this covenant exists. Abraham knows because God appeared before him. God never appeared before me. Abraham, again, had an unfair advantage.

You're assuming that God never spoke to anyone else.

I am making no such assumption. What I am saying is that God never spoke to everyone else

But Abraham is simply the one who HEARD, and BELIEVED, and OBEYED.

I never heard, so why am I expected to believe and obey?

No, it does not.

Explain how it hinders me or you or anyone else. .

Ok what exactly do you understand of these 144 000 people? Who are they? What gives them an advantage? Are they more likely to go to heaven? Why aren't you one of them? Why am I not one of them?

Even if God did give more to one person - as is HIS right

Fine, it is his right. But by practicing this right, he becomes unfair.

it does not take away from someone else

I never said it does. But the act of giving to some but not to others is unfair

Its not like in this world where there are limited resources.

Exactly. God is limitless. So why does he only give to some but not to others?

There isn't 'only so much room' in the Kingdom.

Then why is it restricted to believers only?

Due to circumstances that they or their father/forefathers/ancestors have created for them.

Take that up with your father/forefather/ancestor then.

Are you suggesting that an omnipotent God is incapable of amending this?
The fact of the matter is God designed the world. The matter of the father/forefathers/ancestors issue is the result of a world that God designed. If the results of this design is an unfair world, then God's design is flawed.

Do you suppose Abraham is the only person of his father's people who was forewarned?

The Bible mentions nothing of God appearing before Abraham's brothers.

God forewarns all the time

But he does not personally forewarn everyone. God talks to Moses, then he expects everyone to take Moses' word for it. Then, thousands of years later, God expects us to believe a book that claims God spoke to Moses. Why not just speak to all of us equally? If God spoke to me, I would believe. As of now I do not believe and might go to hell for this disbelief.

Everyone is invited. Not everyone even wants to answer that call

The difference is that God personally hands out the invitation to some and expects the rest to answer the invitation through hearsay. If I said "hey we were invited to attend the Queen's birthday" would you fly to London on my say-so? Probably not. So you'll miss out on the Queen's birthday because of your reasonable skepticism. Me, on the other hand, was personally handed the invitation by the Queen herself, so I have no reason to be skeptic and for that reason, I attend the party.

But even those who are not Christian will be invited into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom, and given eternal life.

Just to clarify, this invite... does it require belief? Will I need to believe in God to accept this invite and go to heaven?

This responses missed the point that instead of looking around at what others might receive more than me...

I'm not asking you to look at those who receive more than you, I'm asking you to look at those who receive less than you and how unfair it is that you were born in a Christian family in a Christian nation rather than in a Muslim family in a country under Sharia Law.

Not worry about what others are doing or receiving.

So you are shutting your eyes and closing your ears to the injustice of the world?

If God wants to reserve a portion of Israel due to his love for Abraham, due to Abraham's love and faith for God, then He has that right, and how is it unfair?

Because those not lucky enough to be born from Abraham will not receive this blessing through no fault of their own. Whether it's God's right or not, it is by the definition of the word unfair. The question isn't "does God have this right?", the question is "is this fair?"

Say a rich man (once poor) worked hard his whole life so that his children and their children, etc, won't ever have to work that hard, but will be secure (financially at least). Is it somehow unfair that these children have a financial advantage over the children of a man who never did that, who might even have sold them into poverty instead?

Strictly speaking, yes. It is unfair. But since we are working with finite resources as you mentioned earlier, we cannot be perfectly fair. We are imperfect beings. God is not.

We are responsible for what advantages or disadvantages our children have in this life and the buck does not start with us; it goes all the way back to our forefathers.

Okay but aren't we all supposed to be God's children? If I only gave to some of my children but not to others, I would be an unfair parent.

The Egyptians who left with Israel gained an advantage for their children that the Egyptians who remained in Egypt did not. But whose fault was that?

Theirs. But their children are not at fault at all, yet they suffer. An unfair world suggest either an unfair creator or an incompetent creator.

Condemned to what?

To death, to taste death?

To be cast into a fiery lake of burning sulfur, according to Revelations 21:8

Faith in Christ gave them a way out

Faith is an unreasonable expectation for people not born in Christian households. Why should a non-Christian have faith in Jesus? Referring back to the Queen's party analogy, some are lucky enough to have faced God while others are not. Faith is much easier for them than for those who never heard of God or Jesus or those born into other religions. This results in some having an unfair advantage in receiving salvation.

Personally, I think God is more than fair... and more than just. Because he is merciful and of love; and such things surpass being fair and just.

You seem to be saying that "God isn't fair, but atleast he's merciful and loving". My focus here is not on love or mercy, it's on fairness. The question is "is God fair". Yes or no? Not "is he loving?", not "is he merciful?". My question is: Is God fair?

But as for fair and just:

"By the measure you use, it will be used against you." "Be merciful and mercy will be shown you".


I don't know what could be more fair or just than that?

Being fair in some regards does not magically make God fair in all regards. Okay so God is (supposedly) merciful to those who are merciful. But when was the person born in poverty ever unmerciful? When did this newborn do anything to deserve what he is born into?

You give me one instance of God acting fairly and justly, and you expect this to be proof that God is perfectly fair and just? I gave you several examples of God's unfairness. Your one example of God's fairness does not undo my examples of his unfairness.

God offers more (including no judgment at all) to those who believe in, love, and obey His Son.

This is the part you don't seem to understand... God expect everyone to believe in, love and obey Jesus, ignoring the fact that more than half of the world is born into other religions. How can you expect a person born into a Hindu family to abandon his religion and follow Jesus? What reason can you give that individual to do so? Faith is so much easier to someone lucky enough to be born into a Christian family than someone born into a Muslim or Hindu family.

Yet He must honor His covenants with those who came before, who entered into covenants with Him. Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel). It would not be fair otherwise, would it?

It's unfair if he does and unfair if he doesn't, so why did he make this covenant to begin with if it would force him to be unfair?

I realize that some of your argument is resting upon the (incorrect) teaching that unless one is in Christ, one is doomed to eternal hell.

And you know for a fact this is incorrect? Can you support this bold claim? How do you dismiss Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 that clearly states this?

[Claire Evans]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

1.) Yes according to my belief.

2.) Depends on perfection. If one defines perfect by having god-like qualities, then yes. If He is unfair from a moral point of view, then I believe He is not perfect. If God is not perfectly fair, then scriptures like this one are wrong:


1. 2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

3.) I believe everyone has a change to go to heaven based on what is fair. It is only fair for God to show us what evil we have done before we condemn ourselves to hell. Sometimes we die not knowing what bad things we have done and the ramifications of it. Sometime people block out their conscience by doing drugs, etc. We all have personal circumstances. If one fully appreciates the evil they have done and does not repent, then they condemn themselves. It is of not doing of God.

4.) Luke 15:7
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

An unfair God will not care about the person He is treating unfairly.

[Justin108]

3.) I believe everyone has a change to go to heaven based on what is fair.

Yes but does everyone have an equal chance?

We all have personal circumstances. If one fully appreciates the evil they have done and does not repent, then they condemn themselves. It is of not doing of God.

Many of our circumstances are entirely out of our control. A man born into a poor neighborhood rife with gangs, this man may be pressured into joining a gang out of fear for his safety and the safety of his family. He might then be pressured into doing drugs, stealing, killing, etc. A person not born in this neighborhood but instead born in a secure, warm, loving Christian family will not be pressured to commit these crimes and will have a much cleaner slate. This all started with being born in different circumstances.

Then there's the matter of salvation. According to Mark 16:16, non-believers are condemned. Whether you end up as a believer is largely influenced by where you are born. A child born in a Christian home in a Christian nation is far more likely to be a believer than someone born in a Hindu family in India. The Christian born child has a far greater chance of receiving salvation.

Lastly, what about infant deaths? Excuse the morbid subject. Most theists believe infants who die are guaranteed a place in heaven, so as bizarre as it may sound, these infants have it better than the rest of us who stand the risk of sinning before death. The dead infant is guaranteed heaven while the rest of us stand a risk of ending up in hell. This is not fair

4.) Luke 15:7
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

How exactly is this tied to my fourth point?

[JehovahsWitness]

Ok what do you suspect happens to a moral atheist after death? Does he go to heaven?

No, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I don't personally believe atheists go to heaven. I base my beliefs on my understanding of scripture.

Does he go to ... hell?

No, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I don't believe in hell.

Does he get judged for his atheism, thereby repeating the process described here?

No he won't be judged for his atheism because as we agreed, he wouldn't be an atheist from the second he came back to life and realizes God exists.

What happens to this atheist?

I believe that all those that God hasn't previously judged to be incorrigibly wicked will be resurrected. They will be given a chance to learn about the True God and conform to his standards. I my personal belief is that if they choose to live by God's standards they will be granted ever lasting life. Jehovah's Witnesses believe this will be on this our planet earth along with millions of others.

(Scriptures already provided)


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Justin108]

No, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I don't personally believe atheists go to heaven. I base my beliefs on my understanding of scripture.

Okay and do you believe everyone has the same chance of being a Christian? Is a man born into an atheist family equally as likely to die as a believer than a man born into a Christian family? What about people born in strict Hindu or Muslim families? Do they have the same chances as a Christian do to die as a believer and therefore go to heaven?

No, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I don't believe in hell.

Then what are Matthew 25:46 and Mark 9:43 describing?

No he won't be judged for his atheism because as we agreed, he wouldn't be an atheist from the second he came back to life and realizes God exists.

Then including Mark 16:16 in the Bible is utterly pointless because at the end of the day, no one will be condemned because everyone will be a believer.

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay and do you believe everyone has the same chance of being a Christian?

No I don't believe everyone currently has the same chance of being a Christian. Location and the time and circumstances of birth play a great role in my opinion.

Is a man born into an atheist family equally as likely to die as a believer than a man born into a Christian family?

No I don' t believe so. One's upbringing greatly influences ones beliefs.

What about people born in strict Hindu or Muslim families? Do they have the same chances as a Christian do to die as a believer and therefore go to heaven?

No, personally I don't believe they do.

Then including Mark 16:16 in the Bible is utterly pointless because at the end of the day, no one will be condemned because everyone will be a believer.

While I believe everyone in the Paradise (this our planet earth transformed into a garden like paradise) will believe God exits; I do not believe that will automatically mean they will gain everlasting life. As I said ...

I believe that all those that God hasn't previously judged to be incorrigibly wicked will be resurrected. They will be given a chance to learn about the True God and conform to his standards. I my personal belief is that if they choose to live by God's standards they will be granted ever lasting life...

Highlight added
There is, in my opinion, a big difference between recognizing there is a Creator and choosing to live by His standards.

[JehovahsWitness]

Then what are Matthew 25:46 and Mark 9:43 describing?

The Jehovah's Witness interpretation (which I believe personally to be correct) is that those scriptures are metaphors describing eternal destruction.

I recognize that others may have alternative interpretations.

JW

[Justin108]

Okay and do you believe everyone has the same chance of being a Christian?

No I don't believe everyone currently has the same chance of being a Christian. Location and the time and circumstances of birth play a great role in my opinion.

Is a man born into an atheist family equally as likely to die as a believer than a man born into a Christian family?

No I don' t believe so. One's upbringing greatly influences ones beliefs.

What about people born in strict Hindu or Muslim families? Do they have the same chances as a Christian do to die as a believer and therefore go to heaven?

No, personally I don't believe they do.

Ok next question: Is there a form of salvation (i.e paradise, heaven) that is exclusive to Christians? Earlier you said atheists do not go to heaven. Do Christians? Does anyone go to heaven? Or do people just go to paradise?

Then including Mark 16:16 in the Bible is utterly pointless because at the end of the day, no one will be condemned because everyone will be a believer.

While I believe everyone in the Paradise (this our planet earth transformed into a garden like paradise) will believe God exits; I do not believe that will automatically mean they will gain everlasting life. As I said ...

I believe that all those that God hasn't previously judged to be incorrigibly wicked will be resurrected. They will be given a chance to learn about the True God and conform to his standards. I my personal belief is that if they choose to live by God's standards they will be granted ever lasting life...

Highlight added
There is, in my opinion, a big difference between recognizing there is a Creator and choosing to live by His standards.

Then why does Mark 16:16 mention "those who do not believe" rather than "those who do not follow God's standards"? I find the constant reference to belief in the Bible absolutely pointless when it is our behavior that matters and not our belief.

The Jehovah's Witness interpretation (which I believe personally to be correct) is that those scriptures are metaphors describing eternal destruction.

Jude 1:7 tells us about "suffering the punishment of eternal fire". How can one suffer when one no longer exists? If we are simply destroyed, we do not suffer.