Liberal Christians only believe some "fundamentalism?

[AlAyeti]

There are now political Christians wanting to "re-claim" Christianity from whatever the "Right" is, or has done to it. Claiming that their way of Christianity is more like what Jesus would want.

But many of these Liberal positions hold to funadamentalism on the poor, the needy and anti-war and violence, but oppose Biblical truth on many other issues.

Why do Liberal Christians deny the truths of the New Testament on marriage and children as defined by Jesus himself?

Liberals will teach about condom usage but decry the Biblical truth about abstaining from sex until marriage as something ignorant or intolerant?

Why are not Liberal Christians funding missionaries to go to Muslim and other countries to spread the Gospel exactly the way Jesus described and exactly the way it is presented in the Gospels?

How can Liberal Christians support a womans right to kill her unborn child and encourage a woman to go and do it, while at the same time, denying the same rights of choice on the matter be given equal recognition to the father of the child?

How and why can Liberal Christians call themselves Christians while only preaching and teaching some immutable Christian positions and not all?

[AlAyeti]

2 An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

My views do not fit at all with either defintion.

That term describes atheism as it is practiced today 100%.

///

AlAyeti wrote:
Bernee, take the devils advocate position and argue how a person can call themself a Christian and believe anti-Christian things.

here we get down to definition - of what is a 'christian-thing" and what isn't.

That would be the Gospel thing to do.

For example, you would hold that abortion is anti-christian.

In what verse in biblical text does it say "Thou shalt not have an abortion"? Now I know you will say that abortion is murder. So where does it say in the NT that abortion is murder?

Even you know the worth of Jesus as a "moral" teacher. Even as a myth. Where can support for chopping a human babay to pieces find support from the Gospels?

A christian can argue that, while they may not do it themselves (for whatever reason) that no where in the bible does it prevent a christian from allowing another to choose to do it.

"Christians" are just trying to get people to "SEE" what abortion "is."

You, I suspect, would argue that someone who permits an abortion is not a 'true christian' (tm) and has no right to call themslves one even though they may follow every other tenet of the belief system.

"MY position?" Or, the Gospel?

Ergo, from your POV, unless they follow Al's way (which Al claims is the christian way) they cannot possibly be christian.

I have been willing to use ultrasound technology to prove my point. Certainly no bogitry OR ignorab=nce from my viewpoint.

The world will never have peace until everyone thinks and believes as you do.

"Me" or "Jesus?"

As stated elsewhere, a belief system that epitomizes narcissism.

Wrong. I extend the same "right to life" to everyone.

You may want to point that narcissism mirror to a more licentiuous and self-centered person. I care for others.

[melikio]

I believe any real Christian has been a Christian since they repented and will stay as such for the rest of their life. Being a Christian is accomplished through faith. Faith is given by God. God does not take back his gifts.

And this is all so "tentative" and "subjective", that I believe the ONLY things with make sense in Christianity, are faith, hope and love.

If God doesn't show me how to interpret LIFE/DEATH, then what good is believing in Him?

I'm fairly certain, that "religion", "dogma" and "Christianity" (the relgious brand)...will evade my heart for the remainder of my lifetime. If I haven't been a REAL "Christian", then so be it. I can't find THE answer for the concepts and parts of reality which slip through MORTAL hands more easily than mercury ever could.

I'm not an opponent of "faith", but I accept the idea and reality that none of that faith is "harmonized" between people, except that which is touched by a miracle of the Creator Himself. We DO NOT all find and conclude the SAME THINGS, by examining or experiencing the SAME THINGS (if that were at all possible). For the reality is, that we are all UNIQUE for a reason and so are the myriad "portions" of knowledge and measure of faith we are blessed to possess.

If I have to sychronize ALL of what I am with someone else, what kind of clone does that make me? (I'm not a "clone", I'm a human being. And even "Christians" are human.)

-Mel-

[AlAyeti]

Doing what is right may have its rewards after all.

Isaiah Chapter 3 . . .

9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have done evil unto themselves.


10 Say ye of the righteous, that it shall be well with him; for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him; for what his hands have done shall be done unto him.

The licentious have been warned from the beginning to end of scripture.

Repent and be restored. Or . . .

[melikio]

Doing what is right may have its rewards after all.

Isaiah Chapter 3 . . .

9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have done evil unto themselves.


10 Say ye of the righteous, that it shall be well with him; for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him; for what his hands have done shall be done unto him.

The licentious have been warned from the beginning to end of scripture.

Repent and be restored. Or . . .

What shall be the reward for hypocrites?

I'd rather be around sinners who know they are such, than the righteous whose piety blinds them from the truth of their very own nature.

Seems to me, if we go down the list of transgressions, no one has the room to "believe" they are ALL THAT.

-Mel-

[bernee51]

Even you know the worth of Jesus as a "moral" teacher. Even as a myth. Where can support for chopping a human babay to pieces find support from the Gospels?

And where does it say in the gospels tat a foetus is a baby?

Al, the strength of your opinions and belief is well understood. But that does not mean it is the same for everyone. No one is asking you to bow to their beliefs and act as they do - why can you not do the same for them?

"Christians" are just trying to get people to "SEE" what abortion "is."

Getting them to 'see' is one thing - being proscriptive is another.

"MY position?" Or, the Gospel?

Your position. Where in the gospel is abortion outlawed?

Ergo, from your POV, unless they follow Al's way (which Al claims is the christian way) they cannot possibly be christian.

I have been willing to use ultrasound technology to prove my point. Certainly no bogitry OR ignorab=nce from my viewpoint.

Still does not make a foetus a baby.

You may want to point that narcissism mirror to a more licentiuous and self-centered person. I care for others.

I am not pointing it at you Al, I am pointing it at fundamentalist ideology.

[AlAyeti]

Al, the strength of your opinions and belief is well understood. But that does not mean it is the same for everyone. No one is asking you to bow to their beliefs and act as they do - why can you not do the same for them?

If I lived in a complete totalitarian regime that did not want to garner my vote for power I wouldn't have a voice. A Christian is still a citizen in this democracy. If abortion was not sanctioned by our legal system then it would be none of my business and reporbates could slaughter their children at will. But, my money is forced from me to pay for these misdreants to live a perverted life at my cost, both spiritually and physically.

The fact is that people are lied to about lifestyle choices and lied to about consequences. It is a matter of the free exchange of ideas.

Getting them to 'see' is one thing - being proscriptive is another.

In that regard, I find the situation of the world today against Christians to be fascinating and somewhat exciting. They are literally proscribed or, "outlawed." And, for doing nothing more than debating belief systems. Christian missionaries do not behead infidels. Not even the dot org kind.

Proving that Jesus was right of course. There is virtually a 360% animosity towards a people that really only talk and preach. Muslims kill people and Christians still get the bad press for wanting marriage to hold the value it always has throughout time.

I never gave a %$^% about religious proselytizers when I was a non-believer and I find the utter hatred and animosity and violence against Christians a place of validation for the Bible and Christ.

Today's Christians are harmless and have learned to do exactly what you want them to. They have owned up to past mistakes and allow others to suffer if that is what they want. But, Christaisn have not and will not deny Christ for the sins done by people doing what was not and cannot find sanction from Christ.

Now the enemies of Christ are once again in the Church but are now using Liberal theolgy and politics to destroy others. Atheists harrass Christians, secualrists outlaw them (atheists lawsuits), Universities denigrate them, the homosexual agenda has developed strategies to sue them and Muslims just gun them down.

Oh, and on the fetus, I cannot fathom the concept that "it" is not a child. Yes, I am intolerant of the position of viewing human life as something that can flushed away like fecal matter. I am not sorry if that offends anyone. In that I stand my ground for eternity.

[bernee51]

But, my money is forced from me to pay for these misdreants to live a perverted life at my cost, both spiritually and physically.

I'm not sure how your money is used to pay for these 'miscreants' to live a perverted life.' Do your taxes pay for abortions? I cna understand the spiritual cost..but the physical?

The fact is that people are lied to about lifestyle choices and lied to about consequences. It is a matter of the free exchange of ideas.

How are people lied to about 'lifestyle chilces'? Who is limiting free exchange of ideas? (Remember -we are speaking on abortion here)

In that regard, I find the situation of the world today against Christians to be fascinating and somewhat exciting. They are literally proscribed or, "outlawed." And, for doing nothing more than debating belief systems.

How are christians 'outlawed' for doing nothing more than debating belief systems. You are doing it at the moment - nothing seems to be stopping you. Are you going to get incarcerated for this?

Proving that Jesus was right of course. There is virtually a 360% animosity towards a people that really only talk and preach. Muslims kill people and Christians still get the bad press for wanting marriage to hold the value it always has throughout time.

Muslims don't exactly get good press for kiling people. Every Muslim I have spoken to is as against people killing in the name of Islam as you would be against anyone killing in the name of Christ.

Today's Christians are harmless and have learned to do exactly what you want them to. They have owned up to past mistakes and allow others to suffer if that is what they want.

It would be fine if that was the case...but you have indicated the exact opposite. You are not willing to stand by and let others make the 'mistakes; of abortion or s-s marriage.

But, Christaisn have not and will not deny Christ for the sins done by people doing what was not and cannot find sanction from Christ.

No one is asking christians to deny Christ. They are asking for their own right to deny him if they so wish. You do not want to allow them that right.

Oh, and on the fetus, I cannot fathom the concept that "it" is not a child.

I understand that. I also understand that there are those who have a different view. I also understand that they are entitled to that view.

[AlAyeti]

AlAyeti wrote:

But, my money is forced from me to pay for these misdreants to live a perverted life at my cost, both spiritually and physically.

I'm not sure how your money is used to pay for these 'miscreants' to live a perverted life.' Do your taxes pay for abortions? I cna understand the spiritual cost..but the physical?

My money is taken from me. In California it is virtually extorted from me. I cannot voice any dissent of Liberalism in the workplace. Nothing but the Chesire Cat on my face no matter what the topic. I know it seems hard for you to believe that Christians are oppressed, but I had no desire to become involved in social ills. Until I was pushed. I will not be bullied. Too many Christians feel they are hated for legitimate reasons. Nothing is further from the truth. Christians are the strongest thread holding together the fabric of a decent society. Also, our faith is not just a myth. Too many Christians are willing to question doctrine and evidence. The denominations are a testimony to an open-minded system, certainly not an ignorant one.

AlAyeti wrote:

The fact is that people are lied to about lifestyle choices and lied to about consequences. It is a matter of the free exchange of ideas.

How are people lied to about 'lifestyle chilces'? Who is limiting free exchange of ideas? (Remember -we are speaking on abortion here)

Planned parenthood are liars. Woman are told it is nothing more than a mass of cells and that "it" feels no pain. Total Bull--it. Also woman suffer dearly for the "choice" they make of abortions. No one tells them that it is a lifetime of regret. I know many, woman that have had abortions and all feel horrible regret. If science were king many abortions would never even be considered.

AlAyeti wrote:

In that regard, I find the situation of the world today against Christians to be fascinating and somewhat exciting. They are literally proscribed or, "outlawed." And, for doing nothing more than debating belief systems.

How are christians 'outlawed' for doing nothing more than debating belief systems. You are doing it at the moment - nothing seems to be stopping you. Are you going to get incarcerated for this?

Fundamentalist is an epithet that carries with it a Nazi-like tagline. How can you deny that? Really? I just had to hear an executive tell me without knowing my beliefs, that Christianty will be wiped away, as "things change." Man, it was malevolent in tone. This was after I said that I didn't like Michael Moore all that much as his films are propaganda no different than his subjects. Now, imagine I tell this guy that I believe the Bible the way you know that I do?

AlAyeti wrote:

Proving that Jesus was right of course. There is virtually a 360% animosity towards a people that really only talk and preach. Muslims kill people and Christians still get the bad press for wanting marriage to hold the value it always has throughout time.

Muslims don't exactly get good press for kiling people. Every Muslim I have spoken to is as against people killing in the name of Islam as you would be against anyone killing in the name of Christ.

In Nigeria, the country a friend of mine and his family fled from, Muslims have conquered many states and instituted Sharia Law and genocide. I looked it up. He wasn't lying. Islam is a billion times worse in actions than Christianty, but Hollywood goes after "Born-Againers" with a vengeance.

AlAyeti wrote:

Today's Christians are harmless and have learned to do exactly what you want them to. They have owned up to past mistakes and allow others to suffer if that is what they want.

It would be fine if that was the case...but you have indicated the exact opposite. You are not willing to stand by and let others make the 'mistakes; of abortion or s-s marriage.

That is not totally accurate. I will not compromise Jesus for political correctness. Same-sex marriage will happen and I will not suffer from the horror that it will unleash on society. But children will. I do not pick and choose scripture to make me happy or license abomination. It is that simple. I have never once tried to convert you. I oppose you absolutely and admire your position from time to time. You are a big boy I assume, and have made your choices accordingly. You have not cornered the market on absolutes YET, that is the exact way you frame your opinions.

AlAyeti wrote:

But, Christaisn have not and will not deny Christ for the sins done by people doing what was not and cannot find sanction from Christ.

No one is asking christians to deny Christ. They are asking for their own right to deny him if they so wish. You do not want to allow them that right.

I oppose anti-Christians. No more no less. I have gone out of my way NOT to proselytize and again I see every effort of the atheist-secularist-progressive-liberal-agnostic etc., etc., etc., to change every Christian into them. Bobbleheadism through and through. Any dissent is dealt with swiftly and succinctly.

You assume and literally convey that we Christians are all idiots that have to believe or else self-destruct. I on the other hand made the same conscious choice you did to weigh the evidence and make my own decision. This website and many other modern-day activities just drives home to me Christ as an immutable fact.

I support freedom of choice and peace first and only.

AlAyeti wrote:

Oh, and on the fetus, I cannot fathom the concept that "it" is not a child.

I understand that. I also understand that there are those who have a different view. I also understand that they are entitled to that view.

If they want to see the Christian view of life they will have to see what abortion truly is. If they want to use science, they will see the same thing.

[bernee51]

My money is taken from me. In California it is virtually extorted from me.

Yeah, I pay taxes too.

I cannot voice any dissent of Liberalism in the workplace.

And I do not voice my non-belief in the workplace.

. I know it seems hard for you to believe that Christians are oppressed,..

Other than your say-so I have not seen any evidence that christians, specifically, are oppressed.

Too many Christians feel they are hated for legitimate reasons. Nothing is further from the truth.

People distrust the aganda of the RR. Unfortunately, all those who make the most noise about so-called 'christian values' seem to be from that group. If you sleep with dogs you will get fleas.

Christians are the strongest thread holding together the fabric of a decent society.

That is your opinion. I think that 'decent society' includes a lot more than railing agianst abortion and s-s marriage. "Social capital" is not dependent of the chrisitan religion.

Also, our faith is not just a myth.

I believe that. But I believe it is based on a myth

Planned parenthood are liars. Woman are told it is nothing more than a mass of cells and that "it" feels no pain. Total Bull-

Strong words - can you back it with evidence?

I know many, woman that have had abortions and all feel horrible regret.

And I too know women who have been regretful after an abortion. I have also known women who have been most thankful and felt no regret whatsoever.

Fundamentalist is an epithet that carries with it a Nazi-like tagline. How can you deny that?

I don't. The Nazi's claimed they were oppressed by world Jewry. They turned themselves into victims.

I just had to hear an executive tell me without knowing my beliefs, that Christianty will be wiped away, as "things change."

I sincerely believe that we will not have peace until the label-sayers are no more. I hope he is correct. Not just about christianity but about all religions that divide.

In Nigeria, the country a friend of mine and his family fled from, Muslims have conquered many states and instituted Sharia Law and genocide.

I agree - the intolerance exhibited by label-sayers is renown. Look at history.

It would be fine if that was the case...but you have indicated the exact opposite. You are not willing to stand by and let others make the 'mistakes; of abortion or s-s marriage.

That is not totally accurate. I will not compromise Jesus for political correctness. [/quote]
No one is asking you to personally comprompromise Jesus. No one is asking you not to voice your opposition. All people are asking is for the right to make their own decision.

Same-sex marriage will happen and I will not suffer from the horror that it will unleash on society. But children will.

My children are well aware of th issues facing homosexuals in society. They also see role models like the gay couple who are neighbours who have a long term (15 years that I am aware of) stable relationship.

I do not pick and choose scripture to make me happy or license abomination. It is that simple.

No one is asking for you approval - just the right to decide for themselves.

I have never once tried to convert you. I oppose you absolutely and admire your position from time to time.

Nor I to 'convert' you. It is up to you what you choose to believe. I have different opinions to you on many things - but I respect your right to have them.

You have not cornered the market on absolutes YET, that is the exact way you frame your opinions.

Opinions always have a way of looikg like absolutes - even yours. I do not claim any ownership of absolutes - other than 'death and taxes'

I oppose anti-Christians. No more no less.

And I oppose any, christians or otherwise, who isist that their particular belief system is the only one that is valid and seek to organise society around such beliefs.

You assume and literally convey that we Christians are all idiots that have to believe or else self-destruct.

Please point me to where I have done that.

Methinks this is more hyperbole and you are bearing false witness.

This website and many other modern-day activities just drives home to me Christ as an immutable fact.

Just as the same things convice me of the evolutionary nature of religion and spirituality.

I support freedom of choice and peace first and only.

Then desist with the exclusiveness of label-saying.

[redstang281]

redstang281 wrote:
I see this as sad. This is the world's goal to strip believers of all the richness God has to offer us in this world. There have been times when I have been hit with a tricky question and it shook me for a bit. But I persisted in research and God provided me with an answer that satisfied me. I believe he can do the same for you.

McCulloch wrote:
I see this as sad. This is religion's goal to strip thinkers of all the richness in this world. There have been times when I have been hit with a tricky question and it shook me for a bit. But I persisted in research. Logic, reason and evidence provided me with an answers that satisfied me. I believe they can do the same for you.

redstang281 wrote:
So Christians are not thinkers? I guess Isaac Newton wasn't smart enough for you.

No, Christianity just is more difficult for thinkers.

So what model or world view is less difficult for "thinkers"?

I don't think it would be atheistic because that requires belief that life can come from non living material and that everything can just happen by chance. Those are two things I think are very hard to rationalize.

Isaac Newton was a great thinker in the realm of physics. He also spent a lot of time researching and studying biblical prophesy. It takes a great deal of intelligence and effort to reconcile what he found to be true about the universe to what he believed to be true about God.

What did he find specifically that was hard to reconcile?

CS Lewis was another very smart man. He struggled with the problem of evil. His efforts show just how difficult this issue is for an intelligent person. He was too intelligent to accept the easy glib answers of most theists but for his own reasons, also refused to abandon the idea of God.

I've always had a very hard time understanding why so many people stumble over this issue. Looking at it rationally, simply because there is evil in the world doesn't preclude a loving God's existence. It just means that he has a purpose in allowing evil.

Many of the Christians and other theists who post on this very debate site have demonstrated very well that they are quite intelligent and have put a great deal of thought into their ideas.
No, my point is that revealed religion requires a great deal of very creative effort on the part of those who do think deeply, to reconcile their faith with their reason. In many ways I admire the lengths to which they go.

I think that every belief system requires a great deal of creative effort to reconcile with reason whether religious, atheist, scientific, agnostic, Christian, or anything else. I think the main reason is because we are man and the answers to the universe are simply beyond our intellect level.