God, justice, fairness and perfection

[Justin108]

For this debate, I need you to answer each of these questions in order.

1. Is God perfectly fair and just?

2. If God is not perfectly fair and just, does that mean God is by definition imperfect?

3. Does everyone have an equal chance in getting into heaven?

4. If everyone does not have an equal chance in getting into heaven, is God still perfectly fair and just?

[JehovahsWitness]

Ok next question: Is there a form of salvation (i.e paradise, heaven) that is exclusive to Christians?

Yes, I believe the opportunity to go to heaven is open exclusively to Christians this is deduced from scriptures that specify they must be baptised (the JW interprestation of the expression "born of water"), born again of Holy spirit and have accepted Jesus as savior and Christ.

Does anyone go to heaven?

Yes, I believe 144,000 individuals have been given the hope of heavenly life.

Or do people just go to paradise?

Paradise (life on this our present planet but in better garden-like condition) is the hope offerered to the majority of mankind in my opinion (I posted a list of supporting scriptures earlier).


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Then why does Mark 16:16 mention "those who do not believe" rather than "those who do not follow God's standards"?

The requirement for those in the Paradise to conform to God's standards is what Jehovah's witnesses deduce from scriptures such as Revelation 20:12 and others that mention details of the resurrection hope.









Regarding the specific scripture in Mark you mention, that would be part of the so-called "long conclusion" of the book of Mark which I do not believe was part of the original text.

"The long conclusion (consisting of 12 verses) is found in the Alexandrine Manuscript, the Codex Ephraemi Syri rescriptus, and the Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis. It also appears in the Latin Vulgate, the Curetonian Syriac, and the Syriac Peshitta. But it is omitted in the Sinaitic Manuscript, the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, the Sinaitic Syriac codex, and the Armenian Version. Certain late manuscripts and versions contain the short conclusion. The Codex Regius of the eighth century C.E. has both conclusions, giving the shorter conclusion first. It prefixes a note to each conclusion, saying that these passages are current in some quarters, though it evidently recognized neither of them as authoritative.

In commenting on the long and short conclusions of the Gospel of Mark, Bible translator Edgar J. Goodspeed noted: The Short Conclusion connects much better with Mark 16:8 than does the Long, but neither can be considered an original part of the Gospel of Mark."The Goodspeed Parallel New Testament, 1944, p. 127."

Source Bible Encylopedia Insight on the Scripture Vol II p. 339
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200 ... p=par#h=16

[JehovahsWitness]

Jude 1:7 tells us about "suffering the punishment of eternal fire". How can one suffer when one no longer exists? If we are simply destroyed, we do not suffer.

The word "suffer" in archaic (old) English simply means to permit/allow (someone to do something) so Jehovah's Witnesses understand Jude 1:7 to mean that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha were allowed /permitted to experience divine jugement/punishment as symbolized by "eternal fire". In short it is the (symbolic) fire not any "suffering" (torture) that is eternal.

JUDE 1:7
"Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment." - NLT

"Sodom and Go-morrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality* and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire" - NWT

other translations
http://biblehub.com/jude/1-7.htm

[ttruscott]

The gift of eternal life is offered to everyone.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Ahhh, you could serve me greatly by answering the following few questions:

Do we just ignore that Jesus said some are condemned already?

Do you have scripture support that this offer to everyone means that everyone has the ability to accept it? IF they do, why do you think that HE stops waiting for them to accept it and say, "Too late, won't wait no more." and they are damned?

And if HE does say this, how does it not abrogate HIS being loving which is perfect and since love is patient, HIS patience is perfect so can perfect patience ever end since it means to wait...?

OR, can there be a reason that perfect patience can end and there is no more patience when patience is HIS attribute, not some abstract?

Surely these questions must be answered...

[tam]

Peace to you!

They benefit from the faith of their father, sure. But it is Abraham who received the blessing, which included a blessing for his children. If you love someone, you take care of their loved ones, their children, their offspring as well.

It doesn't matter who the one is to receive the blessing. The process of him receiving this blessing lead to an unfair advantage of others. If God were perfectly fair and just, this advantage would not have happened. Why not give everyone on earth this same advantage? Why not appear to everyone as he did to Abraham?

Where is this "appearing" that you are speaking of with regard to Abraham?

The first instance recorded between God and Abram is of God speaking to Abram and telling him to leave his country, his people, and his father's household, and to go to the land He will show him. Abram would then receive a blessing for doing this, and God would also bless those who blessed Abraham, curse those who cursed him, and all people on earth would be blessed through Abraham. (Genesis 12:1-4)


"Everyone" did not do (and would not have done) what Abram did. So 'everyone' did not receive that blessing.

Isaac also obeyed God. Jacob as well (after much struggling in his younger years).

That was the covenant made with Abraham due to his faith. How is that not fair?

Why do I need to repeat myself?

Abraham's children DO NOT DESERVE THIS BLESSING. They did NOTHING to receive it. Them having this blessing is unfair. Them having an advantage not afforded to someone not born from Abraham's seed is unfair.

Isaac - the son of Abraham, obeyed God as well. Jacob, one of the two sons of Isaac, also obeyed God (after some struggling, as I said above). His children and their children, etc, wavered between obeying and disobeying. They were given over to their enemies, but Judah repented and so Judah's fatal injury was healed, and he (the kindgom of Judah) was permitted to return to his land and rebuild the temple. Some from Judah continued to obey God in that they obeyed the One God sent to them: Christ.

Since the nation as a whole rejected Christ, however, the offer was opened up to everyone equally, who would put faith in Christ.

Regardless of whether or not any of them deserved it more than others: Abraham DOES deserve it FOR his children.

We make decisions like that for our own children as well.

You're assuming that God never spoke to anyone else.

I am making no such assumption. What I am saying is that God never spoke to everyone else

That is still an assumption. Just because someone does not hear, does not mean that God (and/or Christ) have not spoken.

Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, As in the day of Massah in the wilderness,



So He spoke, but they hardened their hearts and did not hear. It is the same today.

But Abraham is simply the one who HEARD, and BELIEVED, and OBEYED.

I never heard, so why am I expected to believe and obey?

I did not realize my Lord was speaking to me most of my life, and sometimes I ignored that small still voice and did my own thing (which always amounted to landing in hardship that could have been avoided or made easier had I listened). When finally I did hear and recognize His voice, I remembered all the times He had been speaking to me.

This is the same testimony from everyone I know who hears and now recognizes His voice.

No, it does not.

Explain how it hinders me or you or anyone else. .

Ok what exactly do you understand of these 144 000 people? Who are they?

The 144 000 is a number that is set, the portion of Israel that God has reserved. This would be 12 000 people from each of the 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7:1-8. That they are of physical Israel (even if they no longer know this). They are part of the Bride (their faith is in Christ and they serve Him), so yes, they go wherever Christ goes; and they are sealed before the Great Tribulation. It is possible to lose that sealing, but I think it would take blasphemy against the holy spirit for this to happen. If one person in that number does lose their place, then another will take their place. The number is what is set.

The advantage is that this is reserved for those who are physically of these 12 tribes. That is why the tribes are listed.

The 144 000 belongs to Christ as does the Great Crowd (Rev 7:9-17) that is made of EVERY tribe, nation, people and tongue. The Great Crowd also belongs to Christ, has faith in and serves Him. It is just that there are 144 000 reserved 'seats' set aside for those from Israel.

Why aren't you one of them? Why am I not one of them?

As far as I know, I am not from one of the twelve tribes of Israel, so I cannot be one of the 144 000. I can only be part of the Bride via the great crowd made up of people from every tribe, nation, tongue and people.

I will let you speak for yourself on the matter.

Even if God did give more to one person - as is HIS right

Fine, it is his right. But by practicing this right, he becomes unfair.

Maybe. Depending upon why He gave more to one person.

But perhaps God being merciful is better for us than God being fair. His mercy and love allows everyone possible to enter the Kingdom.

it does not take away from someone else

I never said it does. But the act of giving to some but not to others is unfair

Perhaps I misunderstood you?

Because I thought you said some men were hindered from entering if other men were almost guaranteed to enter?

There isn't 'only so much room' in the Kingdom.

Then why is it restricted to believers only?

It is not restricted to believers only. (though if you enter, obviously you are a believer at that point because you are seeing it and Christ with your own two eyes)

The first resurrection is restricted to believers (those who are in Christ, and not everyone who claims to be actually is). Christ shares His rule in the Kingdom with His Bride (the Great Crowd, along with the 144 000 - all of whom are in Christ) for a thousand years.

But the subjects of the Kingdom are from the people of the nations who were not in Christ. They are made up other beliefs, atheists, agnostics, etc.

Either way, the gift given to all is eternal life; no more mourning, sickness, death, etc.

But Christ shares His rule with His Bride (His wife/his queen), out of love. These are those who have loved Him as well, obeyed Him, stuck with Him, been persecuted for His name, etc.

Due to circumstances that they or their father/forefathers/ancestors have created for them.

Take that up with your father/forefather/ancestor then.

Are you suggesting that an omnipotent God is incapable of amending this?
The fact of the matter is God designed the world. The matter of the father/forefathers/ancestors issue is the result of a world that God designed. If the results of this design is an unfair world, then God's design is flawed.

No, this world is as we have made it. It was given to man, who has given over the rule of this world to the Adversary. The one called Satan is the 'god of this world'. It follows him. The emphasis on appearance - the outside of the cup - that is from him. He is the one who was so enamored with his own beauty that he started thinking that he deserved the Kingdom more than we did, more than Christ did (especially since Christ was not beautiful on the outside of the cup). God, however, looks at the inside of the cup. Who we are.

Some in this world are trying to de-emphasize the importance of the outside of the cup. But who can deny that this world is all about appearance?

That is just one example.

That is why we who are in Christ are to be no part of this world. Because this world is not the Kingdom. This world is what man has made it, including the injustices in this world.

So if you are suggesting that this world is unfair, then I agree with you. If you are suggesting that this is God's fault, then I disagree with you. Because this world is what man has made it; man NOT listening to God; and at times listening to a different father altogether.

God forewarns all the time

But he does not personally forewarn everyone. God talks to Moses, then he expects everyone to take Moses' word for it.

Oh no. No no.

The people refused to hear God. They did not want to hear God. They said to Moses: YOU go and then come back and tell us. WE are too afraid (lack of faith). You talk to God and then tell us, and we will do what you say.

God was coming down to reveal Himself to them, to talk to them. THEY did not want that. He gave them what they asked for.

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance
and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

Then, thousands of years later, God expects us to believe a book that claims God spoke to Moses. Why not just speak to all of us equally? If God spoke to me, I would believe. As of now I do not believe and might go to hell for this disbelief.

No, we are to listen to His Son, who does speak to everyone; though not all hear Him or even want to hear Him - no more than they wanted to hear Him when He was speaking as a man, in the flesh, instead of as the Spirit. His sheep will hear Him though. The Son is the Living Word of God. Not the Bible.


And if we do not hear Him, but wish to, then we may ASK God for ears TO hear, so that we may serve Christ and God, and any of whom they send us to.

But even those who are not Christian will be invited into the Kingdom as subjects of the Kingdom, and given eternal life.

Just to clarify, this invite... does it require belief? Will I need to believe in God to accept this invite and go to heaven?

And no, entering the kingdom is based upon what you have done. If you are alive when Christ returns to establish His Kingdom (after He has taken up all of His own), then you are one of the people of the nations who are separated as sheep or goats. (see sheep and goats parable). Those who have done good (feeding, clothing, visiting, etc) to even the least of his brothers, thereby doing good to Him, are invited in as the sheep. The sheep do not realize they are doing good to Him, mind you, because they have to ask Him, "Lord when did we do this for you?" But by what they have done, they have proven that the law (of love) is written upon their hearts. (or not, if they are the goats) These are the same ones that Paul wrote about in Romans.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 2:13

Christ declares the sheep righteous, from the sheep and the goats parable; calls them blessed by His Father, and invites them into the Kingdom; He even states that it was prepared for them since the creation of the world. Continuing...


Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, naturally do things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Romans 2: 14, 15

The law is written upon their hearts and they do the things of that law NATURALLY. They are righteous because they do the things of the law - which law is the law of love.

**

If you are already dead when Christ returns, then you will take part in the resurrection of the dead at the end of the thousand year reign, in which case it depends upon what is written in your book. So again, based upon your deeds, which reveal what is in you.

This responses missed the point that instead of looking around at what others might receive more than me...

I'm not asking you to look at those who receive more than you, I'm asking you to look at those who receive less than you and how unfair it is that you were born in a Christian family in a Christian nation rather than in a Muslim family in a country under Sharia Law.

That does not mean anything to me. Since such people are also able to enter the Kingdom and receive eternal life based upon the above.

Not worry about what others are doing or receiving.

So you are shutting your eyes and closing your ears to the injustice of the world?

What? No. I am not worrying about what others may or have received more than me.

Now, to be honest, the first time I realized that some will receive more than me, I was jealous. Jealousy is something I had not realized was in me until my Lord showed me that it was in me. But He had also prepared me. He had just finished teaching me about how jealousy is responsible for some terrible sins, and I had just finished sharing that with others, including how we should and can overcome this. So I could not, at least not without being the biggest hypocrite in the world, say to myself that being jealous was justified for me, since I had just finished writing to others how it is something that we need to and can overcome with love; and with keeping our eye upon Christ rather than worrying so much about what we 'get'. Over what we are called to DO.


Cain murdered his own brother out of jealousy. Why? Because Abel did what was right and Cain did not. God tried to warn him that sin was crouching at his door; but Cain did not listen, and then Cain gave in and sinned (murdering his brother out of jealousy). Ishmael may have done the same also out of jealousy if he and Isaac had not been separated. Saul was jealous of David and so he tried to kill him.

Cain instead could have humbled himself and asked help in doing what was right, and he could have loved his brother enough to be happy for his brother; then Cain too would have been praised.

quote="tam"]If God wants to reserve a portion of Israel due to his love for Abraham, due to Abraham's love and faith for God, then He has that right, and how is it unfair?

Because those not lucky enough to be born from Abraham will not receive this blessing through no fault of their own. Whether it's God's right or not, it is by the definition of the word unfair. The question isn't "does God have this right?", the question is "is this fair?"

[/quote]

So they can receive their own blessing through Christ. Or they can be blessed for having done good to even the least of Christ's brothers (who could be anyone in the world, same as some were blessed for having done good to angels without realizing that the strangers were angels).

Say a rich man (once poor) worked hard his whole life so that his children and their children, etc, won't ever have to work that hard, but will be secure (financially at least). Is it somehow unfair that these children have a financial advantage over the children of a man who never did that, who might even have sold them into poverty instead?

Strictly speaking, yes. It is unfair. But since we are working with finite resources as you mentioned earlier, we cannot be perfectly fair. We are imperfect beings. God is not.

You and I are going to disagree on what is fair then. Because the man who worked hard for his children has earned for them the right not to work so hard. It would be unfair if his work for his children was taken from them and given to someone else.

Like you said, this world has finite resources.

We are responsible for what advantages or disadvantages our children have in this life and the buck does not start with us; it goes all the way back to our forefathers.

Okay but aren't we all supposed to be God's children? If I only gave to some of my children but not to others, I would be an unfair parent.

No, we are not.

If we are given the right to BECOME sons, then we are not sons to begin with.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

Christ even said that some belong to a different father (because that is the one they follow, doing as he does), the father of lies.



And how much of this world calls upon God (the one we are speaking of, or at least the one I am speaking of: the God and Father of Christ)?

If a person calls upon a different god (or no god), how can they then turn around and claim to be the children of the Most Holy One of Israel, the God and Father of Christ?

The Egyptians who left with Israel gained an advantage for their children that the Egyptians who remained in Egypt did not. But whose fault was that?

Theirs. But their children are not at fault at all, yet they suffer. An unfair world suggest either an unfair creator or an incompetent creator.

They suffer due to their parents. Because we are under the authority of our parents as long as we are children. Yes.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I have longed to gather your children as a hen gathers her chicks beneath her wings. But you were not willing."

Condemned to what?

To death, to taste death?

To be cast into a fiery lake of burning sulfur, according to Revelations 21:8

No one is cast into the lake of fire due simply to not believing (and the lake of fire means the second death - which is eternal. It does not mean eternal life in torment. Life is the opposite of death; it cannot mean that.)

The lake of fire is not hell (hades/sheol). Hades is emptied out for the judgment:

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Rev 20:13

...and then hades is also thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, along with death (the last enemy to be destroyed).

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:14

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1Corinth 15:26

But as for fair and just:

"By the measure you use, it will be used against you." "Be merciful and mercy will be shown you".


I don't know what could be more fair or just than that?

Being fair in some regards does not magically make God fair in all regards. Okay so God is (supposedly) merciful to those who are merciful. But when was the person born in poverty ever unmerciful? When did this newborn do anything to deserve what he is born into?

Again, you are equating an unfair world to God being unfair; when this world is what man has made of it.

I was speaking of mercy before the throne of God, or during the separation of the sheep and goats. At the judgment. Where what one does in this life matters.

God offers more (including no judgment at all) to those who believe in, love, and obey His Son.

This is the part you don't seem to understand... God expect everyone to believe in, love and obey Jesus, ignoring the fact that more than half of the world is born into other religions. How can you expect a person born into a Hindu family to abandon his religion and follow Jesus?

I don't 'expect' it; but Abraham did it, in leaving his father's people, house, etc (and that would include their religion).

I realize that some of your argument is resting upon the (incorrect) teaching that unless one is in Christ, one is doomed to eternal hell.

And you know for a fact this is incorrect? Can you support this bold claim? How do you dismiss Mark 16:16 and Revelations 21:8 that clearly states this?

[/quote]

I do know that this is incorrect, and I can support this 'bold claim'. But another thread or another post, perhaps, as this one is long as it is. Though I did address Rev above.


May you be given ears to hear if you wish them, so that you too may hear the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride, say to you, "Come!" May anyone who is thirsting and seeking, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"


Peace again to you Justin, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you Ted!

The gift of eternal life is offered to everyone.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Ahhh, you could serve me greatly by answering the following few questions:

Do we just ignore that Jesus said some are condemned already?

No, but we might ask what exactly He means.

After all, if the judgment has not yet occurred (that occurs at the end of the thousand years), then no one can yet have received an eternal condemnation.

Do you have scripture support that this offer to everyone means that everyone has the ability to accept it?

My Lord never taught that some do not have the ability to accept it. He instead says such things as,

Here is the true bread that comes down from heaven, that anyone may eat of and live.



He did not qualify that statement and so why would I?

IF they do, why do you think that HE stops waiting for them to accept it and say, "Too late, won't wait no more." and they are damned?

Just because all are permitted does not mean that all are going to accept.

Of course no one will be lost who can be saved. But people reveal what is in them by what they do (and say) in this lifetime. That is why there are books that are opened by which they are judged based upon what they have done as recorded in the books.

Once the elect are at least born (so that they are not lost), and the 144 000 are all born and sealed, then the four winds can be released, and the great tribulation will occur; and shortly after that Christ will return.

Until then, the door is open and anyone who wishes to come may come; even if they are not of the elect.


That is why the invitation is to ANYONE who seeks and ANYONE who wishes. Those who are the bride and who hear are supposed to be inviting anyone who wishes, to come!

And if HE does say this, how does it not abrogate HIS being loving which is perfect and since love is patient, HIS patience is perfect so can perfect patience ever end since it means to wait...?

OR, can there be a reason that perfect patience can end and there is no more patience when patience is HIS attribute, not some abstract?

How is it loving to say 'you are stuck with a decision you no longer remember, and even if you did remember it, you can never repent of it or make a different decision?

If some will not repent because it is not (or no longer) in them to do... and they refuse to soften their hearts or humble themselves before God... then that is one thing. But to say that they cannot repent, that it is not permitted... that is a different thing entirely.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your theology though?

Yet, your theology (if I have not misunderstood you) leads you to suggest that anyone who suffers deserves it for a decision that they made PCE. Does that not mean that your theology leads you (and anyone else who follows your theology) to judge others? Weren't the men who kept telling Job that he must have done something to deserve his suffering rebuked by God for doing this very thing that you are promoting?


Again, I may have misunderstood you, for which I sincerely apologize.

Peace again to you, Ted, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ttruscott]

Good morning, tammy"

The gift of eternal life is offered to everyone.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Ahhh, you could serve me greatly by answering the following few questions:

Do we just ignore that Jesus said some are condemned already?

No, but we might ask what exactly He means.

After all, if the judgment has not yet occurred (that occurs at the end of the thousand years), then no one can yet have received an eternal condemnation.

One is condemned when sentence is passed, not just when it is carried out. To be condemned already doesn't need the word eternally attached to show that they are under HIS wrath which the sinful elect believers never are. To be condemned already must mean the sentence has been passed already though the sentence has not been carried out yet, having been postponed for the sake of HIS sinful elect, Isaiah 48:9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to destroy you completely.

Do you have scripture support that this offer to everyone means that everyone has the ability to accept it?

My Lord never taught that some do not have the ability to accept it. He instead says such things as,

Here is the true bread that comes down from heaven, that anyone may eat of and live.

He did not qualify that statement and so why would I?

Because it has been qualified elsewhere...

IF they do, why do you think that HE stops waiting for them to accept it and say, "Too late, won't wait no more." and they are damned?

Just because all are permitted does not mean that all are going to accept.

This does not address my point about HIS PATIENCE but ducks it as you have done before which is why the repetition...

That is why the invitation is to ANYONE who seeks and ANYONE who wishes. Those who are the bride and who hear are supposed to be inviting anyone who wishes, to come!

The point is : when does HE stop waiting for them to accept the invitation? When and why does HIS perfect patience end and the judgement start?

And if HE does say this, how does it not abrogate HIS being loving which is perfect and since love is patient, HIS patience is perfect so can perfect patience ever end since it means to wait...?

OR, can there be a reason that perfect patience can end and there is no more patience when patience is HIS attribute, not some abstract?

How is it loving to say 'you are stuck with a decision you no longer remember, and even if you did remember it, you can never repent of it or make a different decision?

If some will not repent because it is not (or no longer) in them to do... and they refuse to soften their hearts or humble themselves before God... then that is one thing. But to say that they cannot repent, that it is not permitted... that is a different thing entirely.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your theology though?

You certainly misunderstand my question...or actively refuse to address it by changing the topic to my theology...Make a new topic maybe but address yourself to why does HIS perfect patience waiting for non-believers come to an end?

Yet, your theology (if I have not misunderstood you) leads you to suggest that anyone who suffers deserves it for a decision that they made PCE. Does that not mean that your theology leads you (and anyone else who follows your theology) to judge others? Weren't the men who kept telling Job that he must have done something to deserve his suffering rebuked by God for doing this very thing that you are promoting?

Make a new topic about my take on theology and I will answer but here and now please address the question you are avoiding: when and why does GOD's perfect patience waiting for anyone to accept HIS offer end...and how can it end???

Peace to you...

[tam]

Good morning, tammy"

The gift of eternal life is offered to everyone.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Ahhh, you could serve me greatly by answering the following few questions:

Do we just ignore that Jesus said some are condemned already?

No, but we might ask what exactly He means.

After all, if the judgment has not yet occurred (that occurs at the end of the thousand years), then no one can yet have received an eternal condemnation.

One is condemned when sentence is passed, not just when it is carried out. To be condemned already doesn't need the word eternally attached to show that they are under HIS wrath which the sinful elect believers never are. To be condemned already must mean the sentence has been passed already though the sentence has not been carried out yet, having been postponed for the sake of HIS sinful elect, Isaiah 48:9 For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to destroy you completely.

Ted, everyone was condemned to die, to go to the world of the dead. Everyone - good or bad - because the wage of sin is death, and we all sin (err).

But in Christ, one is no longer enslaved to sin and so death, because one has crossed over from death to life. So one is not condemned to die if one is in Him, but those who reject Him are still in their sins and still subject to death.

(Yes, the body still dies even for one in Christ (until such a time as Christ returns, the we who are alive at that time do not die at all), because there is sin - error - in this flesh. But the spirit - the person we truly are underneath - does not go to the world of the dead. The person go under the altar and await the first resurrection, just as Stephen did when he asked for Christ to receive his spirit when he was murdered.)


As well, everyone receives a resurrection from the dead (the second resurrection). Some are resurrected to life (their names written in the book of life; based upon what they have done) and some to judgment and the second death (again based upon what they have done).

Do you have scripture support that this offer to everyone means that everyone has the ability to accept it?

My Lord never taught that some do not have the ability to accept it. He instead says such things as,

Here is the true bread that comes down from heaven, that anyone may eat of and live.

He did not qualify that statement and so why would I?

Because it has been qualified elsewhere...

Where and by whom?

IF they do, why do you think that HE stops waiting for them to accept it and say, "Too late, won't wait no more." and they are damned?

Just because all are permitted does not mean that all are going to accept.

This does not address my point about HIS PATIENCE but ducks it as you have done before which is why the repetition...

How does this duck anything?

They have shown that they will not accept or come, even though they could if they repented, humbled themselves and came to Him. They have revealed which father they belong to (which father they have chosen) by what they DO.

Where is there a lack of patience in this? What does patience even have to do with this?


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Justin108]

Yes, I believe the opportunity to go to heaven is open exclusively to Christians this is deduced from scriptures that specify they must be baptised (the JW interprestation of the expression "born of water"), born again of Holy spirit and have accepted Jesus as savior and Christ.

Is heaven better than paradise?

Regarding the specific scripture in Mark you mention, that would be part of the so-called "long conclusion" of the book of Mark which I do not believe was part of the original text.

Revelation 21:8 mentions "unbelieving" among those who will be cast into the lake of fire. Again, why mention "unbelieving" when it is our actions and not our beliefs that matter? Why not say "the disobedient" instead?

The word "suffer" in archaic (old) English simply means to permit/allow (someone to do something) so Jehovah's Witnesses understand Jude 1:7 to mean that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha were allowed /permitted to experience divine jugement/punishment as symbolized by "eternal fire". In short it is the (symbolic) fire not any "suffering" (torture) that is eternal.

It's strange that the word "suffer" is never used in a positive manner in the Bible. If "suffer" simply means "allow" then why does no one "suffer" in heaven or paradise in this manner?

Furthermore, "allow" suggests freedom. If I allow you to enter my house, you have the choice to refuse and leave. Do those who are "allowed" into the lake of fire have a choice?

[Claire Evans]

3.) I believe everyone has a change to go to heaven based on what is fair.

Yes but does everyone have an equal chance?

I believe so, absolutely. If not, is that a fair God?

We all have personal circumstances. If one fully appreciates the evil they have done and does not repent, then they condemn themselves. It is of not doing of God.

Many of our circumstances are entirely out of our control. A man born into a poor neighborhood rife with gangs, this man may be pressured into joining a gang out of fear for his safety and the safety of his family. He might then be pressured into doing drugs, stealing, killing, etc. A person not born in this neighborhood but instead born in a secure, warm, loving Christian family will not be pressured to commit these crimes and will have a much cleaner slate. This all started with being born in different circumstances.

Yes, I believe God takes all of these things into account, but in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, everyone has to feel remorse. They need to repent.

Then there's the matter of salvation. According to Mark 16:16, non-believers are condemned. Whether you end up as a believer is largely influenced by where you are born. A child born in a Christian home in a Christian nation is far more likely to be a believer than someone born in a Hindu family in India. The Christian born child has a far greater chance of receiving salvation.

I rather like John's verse:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

Rejecting the Son is rejecting all good. I believe non-believers are equated with those who reject Jesus. Nobody rejects Jesus out of ignorance. As you say, there are many who have not been born into Christian households. Some don't even know He exists! So non believers say, "Well, I've rejected Jesus because I don't believe He existed or that He is the Son of God." It is the rejection of Jesus when one knows fully who Jesus is that is the unpardonable sin.

Lastly, what about infant deaths? Excuse the morbid subject. Most theists believe infants who die are guaranteed a place in heaven, so as bizarre as it may sound, these infants have it better than the rest of us who stand the risk of sinning before death. The dead infant is guaranteed heaven while the rest of us stand a risk of ending up in hell. This is not fair

An infant does not have the ability to choose between right and wrong. Nobody truly knows what happens. Does the child resurrect as an infant not having the capability of even knowing God? It is a mystery. As for us, it is only right that evil needs to be punished. There are shades of grey in life. God being fair, will always take it into account.

4.) Luke 15:7
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

How exactly is this tied to my fourth point?

It means we all have an equal chance because Jesus wants to save all sinners. That is, the least righteous of them all. Therefore, wouldn't a God who loves us all equally be fair?