Anyone got proof of God

[nine dog war]

I have heard all the retohric, the Bible versus etc etc etc

What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.

Please note the words "Tangible" and "Logical". If wish to use quotes from the religious texts then please prove the vadility of the source. e.g. If you quote from the Bible book of Luke please provide proof Luke existed and was not completly stark raving mad.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt for it is easily filled with faith.

[zepper899]

If the supernatural cannot be experienced/observed by the natural (as is sometimes said on this board), then no empirical proof for god or miracles can be given. But Christians and other theists tend to claim that the supernatural does indeed interact with the natural, although only in a peculiar way which avoids human detection, except sometimes when it is detected and properly identified as supernatural.

I think many of teh problems of this debate have to do with a christian's unwillingness to recognize the errancy of the scripture. i know that sounds harsh, but if you look at the transformation of God from teh warrior god (very accessible, very present and LIMITABLE) to the transcendental god depicted today. Whereas early scriptures present a god routinely proving his existence, he has now become much more transcendental than the Israelite's tribal god. Simply by virtue of this transformation people are expecting the signs and examples of an ancient god, things the modern god must by necessity be unable to provide. by showing himself as an aspect of existence would contradict the transcendence that is portrayed.

you could compare this phenomena to the polytheistic hinduism, where you have specific gods like Visnu and Siva that you can expect to prove them selves, as well as the transcendental Brahman. Nobody expects Brahman to exemplify himself, although many people can ask Visnu for a sign. In a society that NOW lacks the limitable gods and only have the transendental, we are asking for something (proof) that was only previously possible.

[LittlePig]

zepper899

I think many of teh problems of this debate have to do with a christian's unwillingness to recognize the errancy of the scripture. i know that sounds harsh, but if you look at the transformation of God from teh warrior god (very accessible, very present and LIMITABLE) to the transcendental god depicted today. Whereas early scriptures present a god routinely proving his existence, he has now become much more transcendental than the Israelite's tribal god. Simply by virtue of this transformation people are expecting the signs and examples of an ancient god, things the modern god must by necessity be unable to provide. by showing himself as an aspect of existence would contradict the transcendence that is portrayed.

you could compare this phenomena to the polytheistic hinduism, where you have specific gods like Visnu and Siva that you can expect to prove them selves, as well as the transcendental Brahman. Nobody expects Brahman to exemplify himself, although many people can ask Visnu for a sign. In a society that NOW lacks the limitable gods and only have the transendental, we are asking for something (proof) that was only previously possible.

I can agree with a lot of that. Christianity currently poses a god that is both personal and transcendental, one that manifests via daily miracles/answered prayers, spiritual 'presence,' and an 'avatar' Son. It does leave theists in something of a bind if they choose to interpret some events in our universe as supernatural with no apparent means of distinguishing natural from supernatural.

IMO we are all in the same epistemological pit, and any notion we elect as THE ultimate answer is as much fantasy as another. But some fantasies are more self-consistent than others. And if self-consistency means anything, I have real problems with theistic constructions of deities. If someone has a good reason to believe in YHWH, then I think it would be more than what we have seen here. What I have seen seems to boil down to self justification of arbitrary preference.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi cnorman18.

Interesting. Absurd.

Well, we're 50% in agreement right from the start!

The original Bible Code research is much more interesting. Incidentally, Michael Drosnin's books are dreadful; he both sensationalized the research and failed to understand it. A much better book on the phenomemon--in fact, the only good book on it of which I know--is Jeffrey Satinover's Cracking the Bible Code.

It depends on what you find interesting. I find the evidence that a higher power has placed a numerical code within a modern version of the Bible, showing that recent world events constituted the end point of eschatological prophecy, of great interest.

I've read both Drosnin and Satinover. Satinover's work is scholarly, thorough and balanced, although I wouldn't say that Drosnin's books, sensationalistic though they are, are without value. At the very least he made the ELS codes famous.

The ELS phenomenon is more complex and nuanced--and equivocal--than has usually been presented. The phenomenon is not that one can find words and names in equidistant letter sequences in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible), but that related words show a tendency to be encoded at their shortest intervals in the same place. The first is true of any book of more than novella length, and is insignificant. The second seems to be true only of the Torah, and its significance, if any, is a matter of contentious debate even among those who believe it exists.

Later research seems to suggest that the phenomenon is neither as robust nor as objectively genuine as early research seemed to indicate. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out and may never come in. There is so much subjectivity involved in the selection of words and so much variance in the results--notice I mentioned a tendency above, which is arguably another subjective judgment--I think it improbable that the phenomenon will, or can ever be, proven to exist beyond doubt.

What I find most interesting about the ELS codes is that some of the world's best mathematicians and statisticians come to entirely opposing conclusions about their validity, based on the personal beliefs of the researcher. This does not reflect well upon them. One wonders how much scientific research in the wider world is tainted by beliefs, motivations and the chase for research funds.

As a matter of interest, the phenomenon is believed to exist, again even among those who believe in it, only in the Torah.

...a belief that is totally without foundation and indicative of a rather narrow-minded, elitist mindset. In fact, I believe I may have found a short ELS code within the first 24 words of the NIV Bible. This appears to undergird the numerical 'signatures' of Christ I have found here, because it states 'God created code' and because both codes (which are independant of each other) end on the final letter of the 24th word. For details please go to

www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/signature.html

The Hebrew text of the Torah is probably essentially the same today as it was when it first reached its present form, with a variation of no more than a few (seven or fewer) letters. To anyone familiar with Jewish traditions about that document, and with the standard method of copying it, this will come as no great surprise. The text of the rest of the Hebrew Bible is a good deal less reliably accurate, and the New Testament is simply out of contention. Variations in the different extant manuscripts of those documents, even very early ones, are numerous and sometimes enormous. Some whole chapters do not even appear in some manuscripts, and substantial differences at the word and letter level are frequent.

The accuracy with which the Torah has been copied is well known and would make it the ideal vehicle for ELS and gematria codes. Don't be so hard on the New Testament. I've read that the thousands of early manuscripts found are 99.5% internally consistent. The first verse of John, in which an encoding of e (Euler's number) was found by Bevan Williams (a coworker of Vernon Jenkins), is therefore likely to be the first-penned version, and as a prominent verse it would be all the more likely to be accurately copied. In the modern age perfect copying accuracy is essentially guaranteed, so other documents, such as the NIV bible, can also carry encoded material, which will survive any number of imprintings.

However, we don't necessarily have to assume that the original version of any manuscript is the only version with a chance of being encoded. A higher power, operating from beyond time and space, could just as easily encode through copying errors as by any other method, to create a code in some future version. This same higher power could also encode translations. There is a kind of pecking order among bible code researchers, based on a belief that the Scriptures are God's final revelation to man and in the primacy among languages of biblical Hebrew. Therefore, translations either cannot have been encoded or are of less worth than Hebrew/Greek codes. But pecking is for chickens, not men. God can and does use any and all means to communicate with us.

The phenomenon described here is nothing more than a matter of cherry-picking and coincidence. Some may find it significant, for instance, that the Twin Towers resemble the Arabic numeral 11; it is probably equally significant that an open mouth resembles the Arabic numeral zero. In Hebrew, the number "eleven" would be written aleph-yud. Resembling -X'- in English lettering. The twin towers didn't look like that.

This is of no consequence, because the New Bible Code is primarily based on English words, an English language version of the Bible and the numerial system used in the English-speaking world. Stan Tenen has shown that the shape of each of the Hebrew letters is the result of intelligent design. This may also be true of arabic numerals.

Don't you find the huge clustering of elevens around the 9/11 event significant? This was a beacon, signalling that 9/11 was no ordinary event. In biblical numerics 11 is the number of disorganisation, disorder, disintegration and imperfection, the fate of all of man's works.

The writers of the Bible had no knowledge of Arabic numbers.

But God did!

Further, dates in the Hebrew calendar have no relationship whatever to the Gregorian civil calendar. The original Bible Code phenomenon invariably used Hebrew dating.

Again, you're assuming that the code, if any, was somehow contained within the original scriptures, so that it would have been obliterated by any later additions or alterations. The New Bible Code, I believe, evolved along with the Bible. For instance, chapter and verse numbers were added in the 13th and 16th Centuries, respectively, but are an integral part of the code. So are numbers from the book of Ezra, which have remained unchanged for thousands of years. How can this be? I would postulate that the power that created the code is beyond linear time. The code was created as a single gestalt, then manifested over time in an apparently linear fashion. The physicist David Bohm theorised that the universe is a kind of hologram, which he called 'the explicate order', projected from another order of being, 'the implicate order'. Anything that exists in the universe already has a kind of blueprint in the implicate realm.

Classical Hebrew does not have separate symbols for numerals. It uses Hebrew letters--aleph for one, bet for two, and similarly for ten, twenty, and so on. It is similar to Greek numbering in this way (this explains, by the way, why the Greeks were terrific at geometry, but never developed algebra, or even arithmetic beyond the third-grade level in modern terms. Calculation with either the Greek or Hebrew numbering systems was incredibly difficult).

I don't know if you read my earlier postings but the code I've found is based primarily on two systems of numeration, applied to the English language. On is based on the ordinal value of each letter (A = 1 to Z = 26). The other is the Hebrew system of numeration applied to the English alphabet (A = 1 to Z = 800). Both are used by Jewish kabbalists. In fact, both the Hebrew numeration system and the earlier Greek system are also needed, as Hebrew and Greek words are apparently encoded too.

It is true that Jewish mysticism, called Kabbalah, sometimes uses a system called gematria; since every Hebrew letter is also a number, words have numerical values as well as definitions, and significant connections are found between words with the same value. This is never--repeat, never, as in not ever--thought or said to have predictive or historical importance, or any meaning beyond theological and moral instruction.

The New Bible Code has no predictive power. As for historical import, yes, it does give new meaning to two very recent events: 9/11 and the funeral of Pope John Paul II. Beyond that, I have found no historical references.

I have not bothered to look at the website linked here, nor in fact even read all of these posts with any great care;

That's a pity, because you might have learned something. It might also have saved you from repeating some of the information in my own postings.

but even from the little I've attended to here, I doubt very much that this "new Bible Code" has any more significance than seeing a portrait of Jesus on a pancake. If you look for stuff like this, you will find it. It means nothing.

Well, if you don't study it you won't find out! Nothing worth knowing can ever be understood from a brief glance. The New Bible Code and Vernon Jenkin's Other Bible Code require (and repay) careful study.

I remind the reader that I am a theist and a religious Jew.

The reader is duly reminded!

Full disclosure; the original Bible Code research interested me, and was in fact the first thing that sparked my interest in Judaism and inspired me to read about it. The Codes are no longer of much interest to me, but Judaism has held my attention to the extent that I converted to that religion at the age of 50.

I have great respect for Judaism and for the kabbalah. However, I am not myself a kabbalist, although my work is obviously kabbalistic in spirit. I am a Christian with gnostic leanings and respect for all the world's spiritual traditions. I had no real interest in 'bible codes', even after reading the Drosnin and Satinover books. The truth is that I was 'given' this work to do as a kind of assignment after a three-and-a-half year spiritual awakening.

thebuetriangle

[thebluetriangle]

Goat,

You're comparing apples with oranges here. The Bible prophesied the destruction of the twin towers thousands of years before the event. The prophecies are given in the language of the day, and based on prophetic dreams, which use a pictorial language of symbols the dreamer will understand; eg, the dreamer sees flying goats (within the dreamer's experience) symbolising a modern airplane (outside the dreamers experience). Others are disguised as narratives: what I call hidden prophecies. For instance Genesis 11 starts with the tale of the tower of Babel. This symbolic story, which may or may not have some historic basis, resonates with 9/11 on several levels.

Except of course, it didn't. People too a vague reference, and then jumped on it to interpret the imagery to be something other than it's original meaning. It has been used to mean other things in the past, and it will be used to mean other things in the future. As evidence, it is underwhelming. For a believer, it is a reason to clutch and feel 'special' they can communicate with 'god'.

Prophecies may well have more than one meaning, but that doesn't make them any less prophetic. History is fractal in nature, with similar patterns repeating over time and in different ways. So empires rise, become expansionist and corrupt, then eventually fall, their fate following similar patterns. The USA is the latest and worst example of such an empire. This is one meaning of the Tower of Babel story. It is the archetype for the overambition of godless men and the fate that always befalls such hubris. The USA fit this archetypal pattern and 9/11, or something similar, was the inevitable result.

For example,.. the Book of Daniel describes what that vision actually means in
Daniel 8:20.. it has nothing to do with the twin towers at all. This particular one is taking a line out of context, retrofitting it into modern event's and shoe horning something that doesn't fit there. Dishonest and ridiculous indeed!

Notwithstanding what I said above, the Daniel prophecy of the ram and the goat in chapter 8 was, I believe, a vision of 9/11. Apart from the stunning similarity between the verses and 9/11 (the goat flying through the air, shattering the ram's two long horns), the chapter is the bible's 858th. This is 11 x 78. Moreover, the NIV verses that describe the attack on the ram by the goat have an ordinal value of 4555, which is 911 x 5!

And, I will also point out that the original Hebrew did not have 'numbers and verses'. That was added on by Christian monks for references,and then later adopted by the Jews for convince sake. It is pretty arbitrary,and there are cases
where the numbering system for the Jewish book doesn't match the Christian version.

As I said in my reply to cnorman18, the evidence shows that the code evolved along with the bible, reaching its fullest manifestation in the NIV. You are assuming that the code was placed in the original scriptures and therefore must have been obliterated by the copying errors, the process of translation, the addition of chapter and verse numbers and the changing of book order. That's wrong.

thebluetriangle

[Zzyzx]

.

You're comparing apples with oranges here. The Bible prophesied the destruction of the twin towers thousands of years before the event.

Correction: The bible “prophesied” goat horns. You read into that “buildings and airplanes”.

That is a demonstration of how “prophesies” are “fulfilled” – with imagination.

The prophecies are given in the language of the day, and based on prophetic dreams, which use a pictorial language of symbols the dreamer will understand; eg, the dreamer sees flying goats (within the dreamer's experience) symbolising a modern airplane (outside the dreamers experience).

How do YOU know what someone’s dream thousands of years ago “symbolized”? What can you offer to show that your “interpretation” is correct?

Others are disguised as narratives: what I call hidden prophecies.

Can anyone besides you see the “hidden prophecies”? If their “interpretation” is different than yours, which one (if any) is correct and how is that determined?

For instance Genesis 11 starts with the tale of the tower of Babel. This symbolic story, which may or may not have some historic basis, resonates with 9/11 on several levels.

If the “Tower of Babel” story is “symbolic”, what other bible stories are symbolic (not literally true) – the flood – parting of waters – the resurrection – Jesus as god????

So empires rise, become expansionist and corrupt, then eventually fall, their fate following similar patterns. The USA is the latest and worst example of such an empire.

That has been the pattern of societies. What does it have to do with “prophesy”? Are you making that “prediction” and claiming particular insight? Does everyone who recognizes the “rise and fall” of societies have a “gift of insight”?

This is one meaning of the Tower of Babel story. It is the archetype for the overambition of godless men and the fate that always befalls such hubris. The USA fit this archetypal pattern and 9/11, or something similar, was the inevitable result.

Kindly defend “was the inevitable result”.

Notwithstanding what I said above, the Daniel prophecy of the ram and the goat in chapter 8 was, I believe, a vision of 9/11. Apart from the stunning similarity between the verses and 9/11 (the goat flying through the air, shattering the ram's two long horns), the chapter is the bible's 858th. This is 11 x 78. Moreover, the NIV verses that describe the attack on the ram by the goat have an ordinal value of 4555, which is 911 x 5!

Now THERE is proof – that the entire idea is without merit.

Numerology (your great new theory) is ancient and is considered akin to the occult, tarot reading, astrology, etc. Below is an indication of the “respect” given to the various “number divinity” systems.

Numerology is any of many systems, traditions or beliefs in a mystical or esoteric relationship between numbers and physical objects or living things.

Numerology and numerological divination were popular among early mathematicians, such as Pythagoras, but are no longer considered part of mathematics and are regarded as pseudomathematics by most modern scientists. This is similar to the historical development of astronomy out of astrology, and chemistry from alchemy.

Today, numerology is often associated with the occult, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts. The term can also be used for those who, in the view of some observers, place excess faith in numerical patterns, even if those people don't practice traditional numerology. For example, in his 1997 book Numerology: Or What Pythagoras Wrought, mathematician Underwood Dudley uses the term to discuss practitioners of the Elliott wave principle of stock market analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

That puts things into perspective.

You are assuming that the code was placed in the original scriptures and therefore must have been obliterated by the copying errors, the process of translation, the addition of chapter and verse numbers and the changing of book order. That's wrong.

Document your claim. Show that you are right and that Goat is wrong.

[cnorman18]

Hi cnorman18.

Interesting. Absurd.

Well, we're 50% in agreement right from the start!

....

thebuetriangle

Thanks for your friendly and respectful comments. I quite understand your convictions on this matter; I once spent the better part of a month looking for patterns in the shapes of the letters in the Hebrew alphabet. I found two, one revolving around Aleph and the other around Yud. I also remember how much fudging and rationalization of same was involved in the effort. The fact that I found such patterns does not mean that they were actually there, or that they were significant if they were.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. The human mind is wired to find patterns, even in random phenomena. Look at a textured carpet, a mass of foliage, or any other such random surface, and in less than ten seconds your mind will begin to distinguish faces. If one begins to look at any work of literature in this way, one will find pseudophenomena like this. If God can do this with the NIV, I don't see why He wouldn't do it in the works of Stephen King. I would bet that if you start looking, you'll find your codes in The Stand and Salem's Lot too.

Far be it from me to claim to understand the mind of God; but if He is actually doing this, we're going to have words when the time comes. If He is willing to manipulate the minds and hands of humans in order to deposit a subtle code in modern English translations of the Bible, then He can damned well do it to help us find cures for diseases and solutions to human conflicts. The God I believe in has his priorities in a little better order than to play Bible-code Scrabble while there are such things as HIV-positive infants and demented suicide bombers in the world.

If it were important to God to prove His existence to humans, and if He is willing to do this, He could as easily write the message in letters a thousand miles high on the surface of the Moon. In short, if God is going to send us proof, why isn't it BIG, BLATANT, and UNDENIABLY CLEAR PROOF, and not some arguable interpretation of some subtle pattern that cannot be proven to not be entirely imaginary?

I'll stand by what I said. I don't think God is at all interested in proving His existence to humans. If He were, we'd all be born with "Made by YHWH" birthmarks on our butts.

Maybe we're meant to concern ourselves with other things. Like being good to each other whether we believe in God or not.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi littlepig.

As an aside on the Bible code issue, any complex system will exhibit many patterns. If I throw dust on the ground and look hard enough, I will find my own portrait. It's simply a matter of connecting the right dots. cnorman18 mentioned something similar about finding a portrait of Jesus in a pancake. This is akin to what happens when artists 'render' a subject. They find meaningful patterns in material that is not conceptually related of its own account. The mind constructs meaning out of meaningless arrangements without the aid of pencils by exercising selective focus (this would be called the 'subtractive' method in art making). It says more about the mind doing the relating than the material being related. Books, letters, numbers, and the Torah only add another level of potential meaning and mystery to the process since the material being reorganized is actually a collection of symbols. If dirt was a language, my dirt portrait would be downright mystical. Any combination of symbols can be interpreted as meaningful. Hence the popularity of random, suggestive word combinations for rock-n-roll band names. Let's hear it for the Peanut Turtles!

Some patterns are meaningful. Our minds are very good at detecting patterns among the sea of data swamping our senses every moment, something that ensures our daily survival. This involves separating the meaningful from the meaningless, such as seeing from a cloud formation that a storm is imminent, but ignoring the resemblance of that formation to an elephant.

I put it to you that the New Bible Code is just such a meaningful pattern, as is Vernon Jenkin's Other Bible Code.

Here is a pattern that I would describe as highly meaningful, from Vernon Jenkin's work. The numerical value of the first verse of Genesis (Masoretic) is 2701. This is the 73rd triangular number, meaning that 2701 counters can be formed into a triangle, like the 15 balls at the start of a pool game. Now 2701 is a very special triangular number, with many fascinating and biblically-significant properties; but I will leave this aside for now, along with the fact that various structural properties of this triangle are reflected in the verse structure of Genesis 1:1.

The Bible verse that most closely resembles Gen 1:1 in meaning is John 1:1 (they also have similar structures and are found in similar, high-profile locations). The original Greek version of this verse can be numerated, under the Greek system of numeration, giving 3627. 3627 counters can be arranged into a trapezium, upon which triangle 2701 can be placed, to give a larger triangle, with 6328 units. This is the 112th triangular number and 112 is the numerical value of the Hebrew words transliterated as Yahweh Elohim, or 'The Lord God'. That is meaningful. Moreover, unlike a pile of dust, one doesn't have to look very far to find the pattern: it's the most obvious property of the numerical structure. It's not found in a pancake either; it's found in the most influential human document in existence.

These same two verses also encode the first six digits of the mathematical absolutes pi and e, each found by the same method and each giving errors from the true values of about 1 in 100000. Concatenating the numbers 2701 and 3627, to give 27013627, then squaring this, gives 7.29736... x 10 to the power of 14. This is an extremely accurate estimate of the electromagnetic fine structure constant (a fundamental physical constant, giving the strength of the interaction between light and matter), which is 7.29736... x 10 to the power of minus three. If these are not meaningful, intelligently-designed patterns, pray tell me, what are?

thebluetriangle

[LittlePig]

thebluetriangle

Some patterns are meaningful. Our minds are very good at detecting patterns among the sea of data swamping our senses every moment, something that ensures our daily survival. This involves separating the meaningful from the meaningless, such as seeing from a cloud formation that a storm is imminent, but ignoring the resemblance of that formation to an elephant.
.....
These same two verses also encode the first six digits of the mathematical absolutes pi and e, each found by the same method and each giving errors from the true values of about 1 in 100000. Concatenating the numbers 2701 and 3627, to give 27013627, then squaring this, gives 7.29736... x 10 to the power of 14. This is an extremely accurate estimate of the electromagnetic fine structure constant (a fundamental physical constant, giving the strength of the interaction between light and matter), which is 7.29736... x 10 to the power of minus three. If these are not meaningful, intelligently-designed patterns, pray tell me, what are?

Pray tell me why God would secret away approximations of random numeric constants in texts that in their every day meaning are much less accurate approximations of truth? God guides each letter with a calculator but allows his authors to inject their human ignorance? Did I mention something earlier about selective focus?

The odd thing about numbers is that they are all related. Put enough of them in a basket, assign mystical meanings to certain combinations, and you have the perfect religious 8-ball. And, as with the 8-ball, you won't ask whether or not you should kill your mother with any seriousness. The only acceptable answers are the ones you want to hear. Sometimes life exhibits interesting coincidences. There is also a common human tendency to see more in coincidences than is really there.

For example:

http://gleez.com/articles/do_you_know/t ... oincidence

The incidence of coincidence is so prevalent, that it cannot be considered coincidence...

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.
-------------------------------------------------
Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.
-------------------------------------------------
The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.
-------------------------------------------------
Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.
-------------------------------------------------
Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both Presidents were shot in the head.
-------------------------------------------------
Both were shot in presence of their wives. The secretary of each
President warned them not to go, to the theatre and to Dallas,respectively.
-------------------------------------------------
Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.
-------------------------------------------------
Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners.
Both successors were named Johnson.
-------------------------------------------------
Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln,was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy,was born in 1908.
-------------------------------------------------
John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939.
Both assassins were known by their three names.
Both names are comprised of fifteen letters.
-------------------------------------------------
Lincoln was shot at the theatre named 'Kennedy.'
Kennedy was shot in a car called 'Lincoln.'
-------------------------------------------------
Booth ran from the theatre and was caught in a warehouse.
Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theatre.
Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.
-------------------------------------------------
And here's the kicker...
A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland.
A week before Kennedy was shot, he was in Maryland, Monroe.

However, we oddly ignore the situations where no coincidence is observed. What is coincidence and what is not is a matter of assigning meaning. Any and all arrangements are coincidence, but in most we find no meaning. In your case that would simply be a failure of the imagination. I suspect you could unearth some very interesting and satanic coincidences in the Bible codes if you made the effort. Someone should make the effort to find 666 patterns telling you to kill yourself. Patterns can have significance, but I think you are attaching significance that isn't there.

[thebluetriangle]

Zzyzx,

You're comparing apples with oranges here. The Bible prophesied the destruction of the twin towers thousands of years before the event.

Correction: The bible “prophesied” goat horns. You read into that “buildings and airplanes”. That is a demonstration of how “prophesies” are “fulfilled” – with imagination.

A degree of interpretation is always required when reading texts. Truths are often couched in symbolism, allegory and metaphor and many prophecies are given in these terms. What I am saying is that many biblical prophecies and narratives, such as the tower of Babel story, Jesus causing the fig-tree to wither, the crucifixion of Jesus, the destruction of the two witnesses and the destruction of the beast, can be seen as metaphors for the events of 9/11. Encoded numbers within the NIV appear to support that interpretation - in fact led me to that understanding.

There is symbolism in the destruction of the ram's horns. The ram was a sacrificial animal in biblical times - for instance, substituting for Isaac in Genesis 22 - leading to the idea of the sacrificial lamb, who was Jesus. Remember that 9/11 symbolised the crucifixion, according to my interpretation of the code.

How do YOU know what someone’s dream thousands of years ago “symbolized”? What can you offer to show that your “interpretation” is correct?

That's my opinion. I offer the New Bible Code as evidence.

Others are disguised as narratives: what I call hidden prophecies.

Can anyone besides you see the “hidden prophecies”? If their “interpretation” is different than yours, which one (if any) is correct and how is that determined?

I was led to this view by the numbers themselves. For instance Mark's story of Jesus causing the fig-tree to wither is given in the 11th chapter. This is the bible's 968th chapter, 968 being 11 x 11 x 8. The verse (NIV) where the fig-tree is seen to wither has an ordinal value of 803, or 11 x 73. Fig is the 11th word. There is deeper meaning here too, in terms of the symbolism of the fig-tree and the act of making it wither.

If the “Tower of Babel” story is “symbolic”, what other bible stories are symbolic (not literally true) – the flood – parting of waters – the resurrection – Jesus as god????

Yes, the Bible is a repository of myth as much as anything else. I do not take the view that it is all literally true.

So empires rise, become expansionist and corrupt, then eventually fall, their fate following similar patterns. The USA is the latest and worst example of such an empire.

That has been the pattern of societies. What does it have to do with “prophesy”? Are you making that “prediction” and claiming particular insight? Does everyone who recognizes the “rise and fall” of societies have a “gift of insight”?

Of course not.

This is one meaning of the Tower of Babel story. It is the archetype for the overambition of godless men and the fate that always befalls such hubris. The USA fit this archetypal pattern and 9/11, or something similar, was the inevitable result.

Kindly defend “was the inevitable result”.

God will not stand by and let us destroy ourselves. The USA, the new Rome, was leading the world (much of which was gladly following) towards collective suicide. If we are to survive the current world crisis, we must be led by our higher natures, instead of letting our lower natures drive us. This is the meaning of the 'crucifixion' of the twin towers, representing avarice, and the Pentagon, representing power-by-force. These were the very symbols of man's rebellion, outer manifestations of what is in reality within our hearts. They are also what separates us from our Creator, and their destruction by the Christ was a clear message to us all: to survive as a species we must remove them from our hearts and our world.

Numerology is any of many systems, traditions or beliefs in a mystical or esoteric relationship between numbers and physical objects or living things.

Numerology and numerological divination were popular among early mathematicians, such as Pythagoras, but are no longer considered part of mathematics and are regarded as pseudomathematics by most modern scientists. This is similar to the historical development of astronomy out of astrology, and chemistry from alchemy.

Today, numerology is often associated with the occult, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts. The term can also be used for those who, in the view of some observers, place excess faith in numerical patterns, even if those people don't practice traditional numerology. For example, in his 1997 book Numerology: Or What Pythagoras Wrought, mathematician Underwood Dudley uses the term to discuss practitioners of the Elliott wave principle of stock market analysis.

That puts things into perspective.

I prefer the word 'gematria', but call it numerology if you wish. As code makers and breakers the world over can testifiy, there is no doubt that information can be given by means of numerical codes. So in principal it can be done. The only question is: has it been done within the original scriptures and the NIV? To decide for yourself, you will have to actually look at the evidence, rather than trash the whole idea. I suggest you do so.

thebluetriangle wrote:
You are assuming that the code was placed in the original scriptures and therefore must have been obliterated by the copying errors, the process of translation, the addition of chapter and verse numbers and the changing of book order. That's wrong.

Document your claim. Show that you are right and that Goat is wrong.

I'm saying that based on my knowledge of the New Bible Code. The encoding in Mark 11, which I mention above, is evidence of that. However, here is another example:

I said that the story of the substitution of the ram for Isaac was in Genesis 22. Note that 22 is 11 x 2. Two chapters in Exodus contain the story of the Lord's instructions to Moses for the building of, and the actual construction, of the altar of burnt offering: Exodus 27 and Exodus 38. These are the Bible's 77th and 88th chapters, both also being multiples of eleven. Also, Christ (o) = 77 and Immanuel (o) = 88. Under the reduced value system of numeration Lord (r) = 22. So one can see that the number 11 is being associated with the substituting sacrifice/offering and that there is a link in each case through gematria between the multiple of 11 and Jesus Christ. Also, Jesus (r) = 11. No other multiples of 11 are closely associated with Jesus Christ through gematria, although 121 (11 x 11) is the ordinal value of 'Second Coming'.

Chapters were added in the 13th Century, long after the books were written and the bible's basic form was fixed. Therefore, there is evidence of a teleological process here: development towards a desired goal, rather than a one-shot encoding.

thebluetriangle

[thebluetriangle]

cnorman18,

Thanks for your friendly and respectful comments. I quite understand your convictions on this matter; I once spent the better part of a month looking for patterns in the shapes of the letters in the Hebrew alphabet. I found two, one revolving around Aleph and the other around Yud. I also remember how much fudging and rationalization of same was involved in the effort. The fact that I found such patterns does not mean that they were actually there, or that they were significant if they were.

You should look at the work of Stan Tenen (the Meru Foundation). He has extensively researched the shapes of the Hebrew characters.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. The human mind is wired to find patterns, even in random phenomena. Look at a textured carpet, a mass of foliage, or any other such random surface, and in less than ten seconds your mind will begin to distinguish faces. If one begins to look at any work of literature in this way, one will find pseudophenomena like this. If God can do this with the NIV, I don't see why He wouldn't do it in the works of Stephen King. I would bet that if you start looking, you'll find your codes in The Stand and Salem's Lot too.

The human mind is indeed very good at recognising patterns in the world around us. But it is also very good at sifting out pseudopatterns: our daily survival depends upon it. The code in the NIV is subtle and can be difficult to distinguish above the random noise of numbers that can be found everywhere within the text (as I know from experience). However, random numbers are like rabbit trails or gaps in vegetation: they lead nowhere. Genuinely encoded numbers are linked together and are like genuine trails, joining with larger paths, which eventually take the traveller out of the forest into the light.

Far be it from me to claim to understand the mind of God; but if He is actually doing this, we're going to have words when the time comes. If He is willing to manipulate the minds and hands of humans in order to deposit a subtle code in modern English translations of the Bible, then He can damned well do it to help us find cures for diseases and solutions to human conflicts. The God I believe in has his priorities in a little better order than to play Bible-code Scrabble while there are such things as HIV-positive infants and demented suicide bombers in the world.

God wouldn't be God if his motives were understandable to us, any more than adult behaviour is understandable to infants.

As a religious Jew you must surely take the Torah seriously and be aware that God often used other tribes to punish the Israelites. Why then do you find it hard to accept that God might have used Osama bin Laden to punish the USA?

If it were important to God to prove His existence to humans, and if He is willing to do this, He could as easily write the message in letters a thousand miles high on the surface of the Moon. In short, if God is going to send us proof, why isn't it BIG, BLATANT, and UNDENIABLY CLEAR PROOF, and not some arguable interpretation of some subtle pattern that cannot be proven to not be entirely imaginary?

What message would He write upon the surface of the Moon? 'GOD EXISTS'? Half the world would think that the USA did it, and most of the world would be put out because it was written in English, rather than their own language. Others would suspect demonic activity or a political conspiracy. In the encodings of pi, e, alpha and the triangular numbers 2701 and 6328 within the Torah, God has spoken in the universal language of mathematics, the 'gold standard' of objective truth. It is, as Vernon Jenkins says, a standing miracle, observable by all who care to do so. I urge you to look at his work. His website is

www.otherbiblecode.com

Maybe we're meant to concern ourselves with other things. Like being good to each other whether we believe in God or not.

Yes, but, as the sorry state of the world shows, we are often anything but good to each other. 'Religious' people are often no better than others too. What we mostly do is hide from each other and the truth, cowering behind our traditions, beliefs, dogmas, social mores and superstitions. Thus we can continue acting as we will, without dealing with the consequences to our neighbour and the world. We are sleepwalkers, walking through life without awareness. No longer. 9/11 was our collective wake-up call. It was our call to higher consciousness, greater awareness and taking full responsibility for our lives and those of our brother and sister.

In my website I call 9/11 'the Kundalini awakening of our sleeping world'. In Hindu mythology Kundalini is the serpent Goddess, who lies coiled around the base of the spine. Kundalini energy, often called serpent power, can reputedly be drawn up throught the'chakras' in meditation, leading to a dramatic and potentially dangerous moment of enlightment: a Kundalini awakening. This is why, six hours before the first plane struck the North Tower, I heard an inner voice say 'Serpent Power'. 9/11 was when the serpent struck. In Christian belief the serpent is satan, but in kabbalistic thought, the serpent is actually Christ. This is why the Hebrew titles 'Ha Nachesh' (the serpent) and 'Ha Mashiah' (the Messiah) both have the numerical value of 363, or 11 x 11 x 3.

thebluetriangle