Can a belief in God be justified on a rational basis?

[Thought Criminal]

Many theists will tell you that their belief in God is based on faith, or on something equally nonrational or irrational, such as a special feeling they have, or their unshakable trust in their parents, or an ineffable experience.

Fine, but none of this carries any weight for me because, as a secular humanist, I have a commitment to believe only what is rationally justified, what a logical analysis of the evidence compels me to believe. It's possible that I might miss out on some truths this way, but I do avoid many, many falsehoods. Of course, I do want to believe whatever's true, so I'm always open to evidence.

Anyhow, this leads me to the obvious question: Can a belief in God be justified on a rational basis? If so, how?

TC

[Thought Criminal]

Well, first, since I have said from the beginning that belief in God is nonrational, I have no problem with that.

We agree that it's not rational, but I don't see how you avoid the conclusion that it's irrational. You are claiming that God exists, not that you like chocolate. The existence of things outside of our own minds is well within the domain of rationality.

Second, since I have also said that basing one's beliefs on subjectivity necessarily means that one cannot prove such a belief to be objectively true, I have no problem with it on that basis either.

Basing beliefs about the objective world on a purely subjective basis is irrational, because those beliefs are objectively false.

Third, since I don't think that what one believes about God is any more important than what one likes to eat for breakfast anyway, I'm okay with it on that account too.

On the face of it, whether someone believes in God seems pretty much irrelevant. If it's true, so what? And if it's not, then it's a harmless error. Or so I thought.

Over the years, though, I've found that there is no such thing as a harmless error, that every false belief can be used to justify other false beliefs, and that the belief in God can be used to justify anything at all, no matter how horrible.

I've enjoyed our conversation; it's helped me think about my own beliefs, understand them better, and refine and revise them. Thanks.

I like to imagine that, besides understanding and refining my beliefs, I'm putting them on the line every time I debate, since it's always possible that I'll learn things which compel me to change them.

TC

[InTheFlesh]

Well, in the case of the tree and the cave, the fact that one is alone doesn't alter the fact that those phenomena are physical and real. They are verifiable; one could show another person the fallen tree or the rock formations. One cannot show one's thoughts to another directly, though, absent a Vulcan Mind Meld. Nevertheless, I see your point. There is more, though:

Let me just say that I don't think you're being deliberately dishonest in any way. However, I don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in God.

TC

Neither do I feel that you're being deliberately dishonest in any way.
However, I don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify anything other than a belief in God.

Opinion for opinion...
Evidence for evidence...

[Thought Criminal]

Neither do I feel that you're being deliberately dishonest in any way.
However, I don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify anything other than a belief in God.

Opinion for opinion...
Evidence for evidence...

Actually, subjectivity doesn't justify any beliefs about the objective existence of things, including God. Subjectivity is just a nice word for "that's just how it seems to me, not how it is".

TC

[InTheFlesh]

I just don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in Evolution.

[daedalus 2.0]

I just don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in Evolution.

Luckily, you can perform the exact tests made by people who study Evolution and come to your own conclusions. You can study the data and create your own experiments.

Let's face it, this kind of testing is not possible for most gods.

InTheFlesh, are you suggesting that science is subjective? Are you suggesting that God is testable? Or, are you suggesting that you just don't believe anything you don't personally experience?

[Beto]

I just don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in Evolution.

I don't either. Empirical objectivity is at the core of the scientific method, to which the Theory of Evolution must conform.

[InTheFlesh]

I just don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in Evolution.

Luckily, you can perform the exact tests made by people who study Evolution and come to your own conclusions. You can study the data and create your own experiments.

Let's face it, this kind of testing is not possible for most gods.

InTheFlesh, are you suggesting that science is subjective? Are you suggesting that God is testable? Or, are you suggesting that you just don't believe anything you don't personally experience?

I listen to segments of this Dr. on the radio who brings up articles and stories on how new scientific findings keep disproving the theory of evolution.
This Dr. shows how science points to God. It depends on who you ask.

[InTheFlesh]

I just don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in Evolution.

InTheFlesh, are you suggesting that science is subjective? Are you suggesting that God is testable? Or, are you suggesting that you just don't believe anything you don't personally experience?

God is testable and God is detectable too.
Put your ear near the chest of a loved one.
Can you hear the heartbeat?
How about in the mouth and nose,
are they breathing?
This did not evolve,
This is the breath of God.

[Beto]

I listen to segments of this Dr. on the radio who brings up articles and stories on how new scientific findings keep disproving the theory of evolution.
This Dr. shows how science points to God. It depends on who you ask.

Are you more inclined to believe what some "doctor" says on the radio, or on peer reviewed publications? Yes, I'm making an a priori assumption about his credibility, but feel free to show who he is, and what he has published.

[LittlePig]

I just don't see how subjectivity could ever lead to a rational basis upon which to justify a belief in Evolution.

InTheFlesh, are you suggesting that science is subjective? Are you suggesting that God is testable? Or, are you suggesting that you just don't believe anything you don't personally experience?

God is testable and God is detectable too.
Put your ear near the chest of a loved one.
Can you hear the heartbeat?
How about in the mouth and nose,
are they breathing?
This did not evolve,
This is the breath of God.

I'd shoot for something more formal, like haiku. The free-verse approach should only be attempted by those who have mastered other forms of poetry.