Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Doulos]

[Replying to post 1378 by Goat]

Can you show the claimed historical event is even possible? Can you reproduce the circumstances to show that the claims are reasonable and rational?

You are making my point for me.

The God we believe in is a supernatural God, doing supernatural things, in supernatural ways. His acts are often neither reasonable nor rational by human standards.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1375 by Danmark]

I just pooped a diamond. Its a one time event that cannot be repeated. Do you believe it?

What if i write a book about the event. Will you believe it now?

What if my neighbor, wife, and friends also testify to it. Will you believe it then?

Should someone thousands of years in the future believe it if they read our books?

This is no argument at all. You can still not repeat an historical event.


Why not be honest and admit that you reject the evidence?

You have inadvertently given evidence for how easily historic evidence can get corrupted. You've attributed Scourge's most excellent post to me.

BTW, how did you come up with this idea of replicating historic events [or not] and why do you advance it as an argument?

Obviously we cannot repeat some historical event, but we can attempt to repeat supposed phenomena or events to see if they are possible. If some historian claims an athlete ran 26 miles in 2 hours 1000 years ago, we might consider this possible, even tho' that is about three and a half minutes under the current world record. If the claim was that he did it in 10 seconds, we reject the claim, since to do so would require the suspension of what we know about the natural world and require us to engage in magical thinking about supernatural events.

When this is coupled with the fact that there are no first hand reports of a supernatural event, the rejection of the claim becomes even easier.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 1358 by no evidence no belief]

Because the evidence for virgin births is sooooooooooooooooooo weak...

What weak evidence?????

There is No evidence for that at all - not even weak evidence. That implies that the virgin birth of Christ must have been a supernatural event.

It is that simple.

Either that, or it's a just a story.

You see, the Christian stories talk about her being betrothed to Joseph when she got pregnant.

The Jewish culture in the middle east did not have a betrothal period. What happened is that weddings were in two phases. The first phase when a man and woman were pledged to each other. This is when the marriage was consummated. .. and it happened in the household of the woman's family . The man then goes off and sets up a household for the two of them. After he does so, they had the public demonstration.

The time frame between the two is often translated as 'betrothal', but it'snot a betrothal, and during that time frame, the young woman is not a 'virgin.' In modern times, the two ceremonies have been combined into one in the modern Jewish weddings.

So, the story as is presented in the New Testament does not make any sense when you look at what the Jewish culture was in Judah at the time.

[scourge99]

[Replying to post 1375 by Danmark]

I just pooped a diamond. Its a one time event that cannot be repeated. Do you believe it?

What if i write a book about the event. Will you believe it now?

What if my neighbor, wife, and friends also testify to it. Will you believe it then?

Should someone thousands of years in the future believe it if they read our books?

This is no argument at all. You can still not repeat an historical event.

The point is that just because something is claimed to be a one-time event doesn't mean its more believable.

For example, my claim that i pooped a diamond doesn't become more credible just because it's a one-time event, or because someone wrote a book about it, or because someone 2000 years from now will read it. Likewise, the claimed resurrection of Jesus doesn't become more credible just because it's claimed to be a one-time event, or because someone writes about it, or because it was 2000 years ago.

Why not be honest and admit that you reject the evidence?

What evidence? You mean testimony?

Yes, i reject testimony (written or spoken) about things which contradict a lifetime of experiences and observations. Specifically, i reject the testimony in the Bible about Jesus' resurrection because a lifetime of experiences and observations tell me that people do not magically come back from dead 3 days later or can fly into the sky.


Do you have something more substantial than testimony to support these extraordinary claims? Or are you credulous and gullible when it comes to supernatural bible stories?

If the bible said Jesus pooped a diamond, would you believe? Why or why not? How absurd and fantastical does a claim in the Bible have to be before you question or reject it? How about talking snakes and donkeys? How about a man living in a fish? How about a man healing blindness with magical spit?

[Doulos]

[Replying to post 1382 by scourge99]

The point is that just because something is claimed to be a one-time event doesn't mean its more believable.

I did not claim that. I object to your insistence on repeating a historical event.

If you reject accounts of historical events it does not mean it never happened or that is wasn't a true account.

[For example, my claim that i pooped a diamond doesn't become more credible[/quote]

It will be either a supernatural miracle or a lie.

What evidence? You mean testimony?

Don't play with words.

Yes, i reject testimony (written or spoken) of things which contradict a lifetime experiences and observations.

That does not mean it did not happen. Anyway, your experiences are too limited to be accepted as a rule.

[Nickman]

What evidence? You mean testimony?

Yes, i reject testimony (written or spoken) of things which contradict a lifetime experiences and observations. Specifically, i reject the testimony in the Bible about Jesus' resurrection because a lifetime of experiences and observations tell me that people do not magically come back from dead 3 days later or can fly into the sky.


Do you have something more substantial than testimony to support these extraordinary claims? Or are you credulous and gullible when it comes to supernatural bible stories?

Especially when we know how irreversible a 3 day old corpse is.

After 3 days: 21} The gases in the body tissues form large blisters on the skin 22} The whole body begins to bloat and swell grotesquely. This process is speeded up if victim is in a hot environment, or in water 23} Fluids leak from the mouth, nose, eyes, ears and rectum and urinary opening

Sorry if this is grotesque but it is to make a point. This is a 3 day old body.


How could Jesus be resurrected in a climate that has an Average Yearly Temperature of 63.5F and a Yearly Average Humidity of 58.3%º The body would have been beyond salvage after day 2.

[Student]

[Replying to post 1368 by no evidence no belief]

Ok, so you admit there is no evidence that Mary was a virgin.

I see we are back where we started.

It was a historical event that cannot be repeated. It was a supernatural event that occurred only once. Do you expect from us to recreate history?

Or do you want evidence for the evidence for the evidence for the evidence ...

I just pooped a diamond. Its a one time event that cannot be repeated. Do you believe it?

What if i write a book about the event. Will you believe it now?

What if my neighbor, wife, and friends also testify to it. Will you believe it then?

Should someone thousands of years in the future believe it if they read our books?

Butt, are you an EYE witness?

He probably saw it through a glass, darkly.

[Goose]

Dude, stop it! We get it! You persuaded us.

The resurrection of Jesus was a perfectly natural and well documented historical event, just like the assassination of Caesar and the resurrection of Zack Dunlap.

Neither of these three events is supernatural, we get it. Thank you.

I ask the question "do you have any evidence for the supernatural", and your answer is a clear and resounding "NO", because you proved that the resurrection of Christ is NOT supernatural, but a regular natural event like Zack Dunlap's resurrection or Caesar's assassination.

Now that you've firmly established that Jesus is not the Son of God, but just an average dude like Zack Dunlap, can we please talk about the talking donkey?

No, I don't think you do get it. To save me the time of having to respond to you on this silly argument of yours I was hoping you’d realize on your own the painfully obvious blunder in your reasoning here. But since you insist on chasing me around with it I guess I have to take the time.

Firstly, you’re assuming Zack’s return to life wasn’t a miracle. I see no reason to draw that conclusion just yet. Secondly, and more importantly, you are fallaciously assuming in your argument that the resurrection of Zack and resurrection of Jesus are perfectly analogous. They aren’t for a variety of reasons most of which should be self evident. Zack’s return to life doesn’t demonstrate Jesus’ return to life was by natural causes anymore than Zack’s resurrection establishes Jesus’. Zack was introduced to create a baseline of plausibility for a return to life after being brain dead thus moving us off the proposition that brain dead people always stay dead. He wasn't introduced to establish Jesus' resurrection. Capiche?

[scourge99]

[Replying to post 1382 by scourge99]

The point is that just because something is claimed to be a one-time event doesn't mean its more believable.

I did not claim that.

Goid. I'm glad we agree on something.

I object to your insistence on repeating a historical event.

I'm not insisting anything.

What you seem to be claiming is that you can't reproduce the event therefore we should just blindly believe it happened.

If you reject accounts of historical events it does not mean it never happened or that is wasn't a true account.

I agree. But just because we can't prove something didn't happen doesn't mean we should blindly believe it did. Especially when the claim defies a lifetime if experiences and observations to the contrary. Or do you disagree?

For example, if you can't disprove i pooped a diamond does that mean you should believe it's true? No.

For example, my claim that i pooped a diamond doesn't become more credible

It will be either a supernatural miracle or a lie.

Or a myth. Or a tall tale. Or an exaggeration. Or fiction. Etc.

There are a lot of possibilities.

What evidence? You mean testimony?

Don't play with words.

I take this as a tacit admittal that the only "evidence" you have is testimony. Or you unwilling or unable to acknowledge this?

If you have some other evidence for jesus miracles besides testimony, then what is it?

Yes, i reject testimony (written or spoken) of things which contradict a lifetime experiences and observations.

That does not mean it did not happen.

And it doesn't mean it did either.

Rational people believe things only when they have justification for the belief. Not because they can't prove something false.

For example, i have a coin in my pocket. Is it a quarter or a dime? If you can't prove its a dime does that mean you should believe its a quarter? How about if you can't prove it's a quarter? Can you form any rational belief about the type of coin in my pocket?

The point is that not being able to disprove the testimony about Jesus miracles doesn't mean we should accept them as true.

Anyway, your experiences are too limited to be accepted as a rule.

So people coming back from the dead and flying into the sky doesn't contradict your lifetime of experiences? Your experiences and observations of the world are compatible with such events occurring? If so please explain how.

[Goose]

I'm no scholar, so I rely on what scholars in the area say.

Actually, it seems you rely on what wikipedia says in the area. You are at the very least proficient at arguing by cut and paste jobs from wikipedia.