Saved by the Grace of God???

[Confused]

So, this has always perplexed me and I am hoping someone might actually be able to give me a clear and concise explanation. Often, we hear of events that lead to the death of one or more people, yet the survivors are quoted as saying things such as "It was only by the grace of God that I stand here today". Now, to me, this implies the person is somehow more important than those who died. Yet if we are all created equal, then no life is greater than another. Often serial killers murder 3+ people, but the last one gets away which leads to the arrest and conviction of the killer. The survivor, once again, attests to the grace of God being the reason they are alive to tell the story. How does this coincide with this God of the bible?

So for debate:
1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?
2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

(Please, if you can't creatively answer this, don't use the generic "God works in mysterious ways".)

[joer]

I just read this post that a friend left on another site. I see it as yet more evidence of the Grace of God and the Power and effectiveness of Prayer. Grace and Prayer aren't for miracles and spectacular recoveries and events. They are for the simple solace of knowing THAT THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE. and IT IS LOVING!

Yes it's that simple yet so hard for so many here to see and/or accept. Even when the examples stare you blindly in the Face, You cannot see them. Oh but for one iota of Faith. Solace and comfort could be yours. God's Blessings to all, for those who believe. and Good Will to all, for those who don't.

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:54 pm

We had returned from Nova Scotia for the summer and were very happy to find that our terminally ill friend was still with us, and not doing too badly (considering that he was dying). Jack was an exciting conversationalist with a passion for scholarship of the Bible and love for Christ. His bent was strictly fundamentalist but we clicked personally and loved each other.

He came to visit us at our home a few times in his last weeks and our conversations were very deep and heartfelt. During the course of those conversations Jack confided several things to us that I don't believe he had told anyone else in his immediate circle of friends and family. Perhaps he felt that since we were so philosophically different than them, he could speak freely without judgment. And we did not judge him but rather loved him all the more deeply.

He confided in me at one point that during the course of his surgeries and treatments over the course of almost three years, he had lost the deep connection and communion in prayer that he had once had with the Master, Jesus. His faith was not shaken. He knew the Master was there. But the line had been cut as his body was ravaged by disease. It had saddened him greatly and his sadness spilled over into me. In tears we prayed together simply that Jack might be granted that which he so desired - to feel the Master at his side once again before leaving this world.

About two weeks later I received this letter from him:

Dear William,

This letter describes a wonderful set of events from earlier this week. I hope it will encourage you as much as I have been encouraged!

Proverbs 16:33 “The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD”. (KJV); “A thing may be put to the decision of chance, but it comes about through the Lord.” (The Bible in Basic English); “We toss the coin, but it is the Lord who controls its decision.” (The Living Bible)

My doctors have told me that I have “only weeks to live (not months)”. As I contemplate the medical decisions which face me – I have been struck by the paucity of information on which to base my treatment choices. Throughout my three year ordeal with “terminal cancer” – I have done my best to trust the Lord for the outcome. But given my current circumstances – I find myself drawn to the idea of placing even the treatment options themselves into the Hands of my loving Savior.

Normally I would encourage myself and others to do my/their best to make a “wisdom decision” based on the available data. But in my situation there is little significant data to evaluate. Over the last week or two I have pondered the notion of “drawing lots” to decide which choice to make. Those of you who know me will immediately recognize how out of character this approach would be for me. The reaction I have received to this idea which I have shared with a few friends has been mixed. Yet it somehow squares comfortably with my faith in the complete sovereignty of God.

Today I was taking a short walk with my good friend Dennis Boyd (who is the owner of Campbell & Boyd Insurance Agency in Brattleboro). Dennis has been walking with me once or twice a week over the last three years of my illness. Due to my flagging stamina – our walks have, of necessity, gotten shorter and fewer in number. As we started out on our walk I mentioned my idea of drawing lots to Dennis. As is his custom – Dennis listened carefully without responding immediately. Part of our walking routine brings us briefly into Locust Ridge Cemetery – one of the older cemeteries in town. As we entered the cemetery we were still discussing the relevancy of drawing lots and the related concepts of “probability” and “chance”.

I believe that the Bible teaches that the Lord of Heaven is in control of every circumstance of life. Fatalism believes that all events are inevitable and unalterable. Sovereignty believes that all events are guided by a personal and loving Father – Who superintends all events for the benefit of His people (Romans 8:27). Speaking of God’s sovereignty Jesus taught His disciples: “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing [a penny]? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father [i.e., without your Father’s permission].” (Matthew 10:29)

Interestingly, the root word for “chance” [kad] comes from the Latin [cadere]: to fall, die. When we speak of chance (as in “happening by chance”) we often mean “accidentally” or a random event. We think of something happing without design. Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines “chance” as: “An event that happens, falls out or takes place, without being contrived, intended, expected or foreseen.” It carries the idea of absence of intent; a random and unplanned event. Randomness implies: “without a governing design, method, or purpose”.

Well, here is where this story becomes interesting. I mentioned to Dennis the fact that chance (or randomness) has never been mathematically proven. Just as those words tumbled out of my mouth – ‘by chance’ (and for no apparent reason) my gaze fixed on one particular gravestone. It was an old slate marker about 10 feet from our path. And although there were scores of markers in our immediate vicinity – I was drawn to this particular stone. Because the writing was too small to read from a distance – I approached the stone and knelt in front of it. I could readily see that it was a child’s marker which were almost always smaller than a full-size stone. “In Memory Asa: Son of Mr. David Bemis And Mrs. Mary his wife – who was killed with a log. Dec. 4th 1787 – Aged 8 years 9 mos [??] Days.” Because the marker had been damaged by the passage of time – the number of days was unreadable.

By this time Dennis was crouching at my side as we read the inscription together: “Tho’ a log crushed his brittle Frame – Ye parents praise God’s holy Name – Who reigns thru Nature’s wide expanse – And not a sparrow falls by chance”. How many grave markers have you ever seen that remarked upon or even alluded to “chance”? And what are the “chances” – or perhaps “probability” is better – that someone in the middle of a discussion should “happen” to glance at a marker opining upon that very subject? Well, okay, you say: just a fascinating coincidence. But I did not receive it as such. I have been seeking counsel regarding the wisdom of drawing of lots as a means of gaining guidance from the Lord for almost two weeks. I believe I now have my answer. Many years after being placed on that spot – the testimony of Asa Bemis’s parents spoke to me. And the Lord used their tragic loss to encourage me some 220 years later!

But that isn’t the conclusion of the story. Dennis and I were exhilarated by this apparent “message from above” and we were grateful for the Lord’s goodness in giving me assurance to rely on His leading. As we pressed on with our walk – we continued our discussion of God’s Sovereignty in the ordinary events of life. We discussed the implications of a sparrow falling to the ground and the Father’s role in that seemingly chance event. As we walked down Putney Road (less than five minutes from having “discovered” the grave marker) – we came upon a small object lying on the sidewalk directly in my path. It was a small bird. And yes, believe it or not, Mr. Ripley, it was a female House sparrow! Or, more to the point: a fallen sparrow. I marvel at the statistical “probability” of both of these events happening “randomly” -- and within a few minutes walk of each other? Perhaps someone given to statistics will care to work that out? “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; ye are of more value than many sparrows!” (Matt. 10:30-31)

I am glad that Dennis was with me to verify the events as I’ve described them. For me – it was a wonderful confirmation of my Lord’s presence with me – and of His willingness to guide me through these difficult times to the end of my trek here. And that He could use the untimely death of an 8 year old boy and the falling of a small sparrow to encourage this child causes me to bow down and worship.

Love,

Jack

Jack died a few weeks later but I was not saddened to lose him to the embrace of the universe. I knew that he had gone on to the mansion worlds with a profound connection revived. The morning of his funeral I awoke with a vision of Jack walking with two associates of light. It gave me great joy.

William
________________
It is my prayer that the maturing relationship between human beings, God and our home in space will continue to strengthen and all of us will embrace the extraordinary Divine Love being offered.

[joer]

This too is a Grace of God. Many here experiece it and practice it.

Intimate Friendship

Friendship enhances the joys and glorifies the triumphs of life. Loving and intimate human associations tend to rob suffering of its sorrow and hardship of much of its bitterness.

So much of God's Grace is SEEN in prespective. You look at it one way in your mind and it has no power at all. And YET others and see the same thing and it is Ibued with God's Power of Love.

This Love was meant to be shared. It is in the sharing that it is REALIZED.

You only need to open your heart a tiny bit to allow your mind to see the Love therein. The possibility is that you get washed over by the opening of the floodgates of Love that are held back by your prespective. Look in a NEW WAY.

"I WILL MAKE ALL THINGS NEW" has very little to do with new physical manifestations and everything to do with SEEING something that was always there that you couldn't see before. Open your heart. Let go of the Pain. Feel the LOVE.

"There but for the Grace of God go I"

[OpenedUp]

I still don't get what love and friendship have to do with God. I enjoy love and I enjoy close friendships, but I have no God.

I keep hearing things like "God is shown through love" and through friendship and through all of these other things that humans do and have NATURALLY. Atheists love and have friendship- everyone (or most) do. So what in the world does God have to do with it?

Has anyone really answered this question?

[joer]

I still don't get what love and friendship have to do with God. I enjoy love and I enjoy close friendships, but I have no God.

I keep hearing things like "God is shown through love" and through friendship and through all of these other things that humans do and have NATURALLY. Atheists love and have friendship- everyone (or most) do. So what in the world does God have to do with it?

Has anyone really answered this question?

opened up, why do you Love and befriend people instead of hate and make enemies of them?

[OpenedUp]

I still don't get what love and friendship have to do with God. I enjoy love and I enjoy close friendships, but I have no God.

I keep hearing things like "God is shown through love" and through friendship and through all of these other things that humans do and have NATURALLY. Atheists love and have friendship- everyone (or most) do. So what in the world does God have to do with it?

Has anyone really answered this question?

opened up, why do you Love and befriend people instead of hate and make enemies of them?

Becuase I am a kind person.

Why do YOU do it? Because God makes you?

[joer]

I still don't get what love and friendship have to do with God. I enjoy love and I enjoy close friendships, but I have no God.

I keep hearing things like "God is shown through love" and through friendship and through all of these other things that humans do and have NATURALLY. Atheists love and have friendship- everyone (or most) do. So what in the world does God have to do with it?

Has anyone really answered this question?

opened up, why do you Love and befriend people instead of hate and make enemies of them?

Becuase I am a kind person.

Why do YOU do it? Because God makes you?

Well not exactly opened up. The way a faithful person sees it is that we have a choice on how we behave. (Free Will) So God can't make us choose one way or another. BUT God did make us with kindness inherently within us, so generally we WILL CHOOSE LIKE YOU DO to "enjoy love and ... enjoy close friendships", And that would explain why you and "Atheists love and have friendship- everyone (or most) do" even though you "have no God."

Why do you think you and most athiests are inherently "kind persons"?

Because Nature made you that way?

[Fallibleone]

No one said 'inherently kind'. But that's the question. Why are some people kind? My answer is 'I don't know, but I'm glad that they are'. Your answer is 'God - he does it whether you believe in him or not'.

[joer]

No one said 'inherently kind'. But that's the question. Why are some people kind? My answer is 'I don't know, but I'm glad that they are'. Your answer is 'God - he does it whether you believe in him or not'.

I'm glad they are too Fallibleone! I think God designed creation so that we would evolve, in general, into people who have a natural tendency to do Good rather then bad. And in that design there's a spark of God, a fingerprint of God, a fragment of God within us and it guides us , in general, into being kind, compassionate and empathic beings.

I see that as more evidence of the Grace of God. That we are inherently Good people.

Good to see you again Fallibleone. Hope you've been well since our last contact.

[Fallibleone]

I've been fine thank you. Hope you have too.

I am not so sure that it can be proven that we are inherently good. The way I see it, we are inherently neutral. But then I believe that morality has more to do with social mores and an understanding of what feels 'good' and what feels 'bad' to the individual when it happens to them than with God-given rules. But that will probably not surprise you. The terms 'good' and 'evil' are IMHO not fixed. I have a little bit of a problem with them.

As far as empathy goes, it takes work to become truly empathic. I thought I was pretty good at this, but it turned out I could get much better. Many people like to think they have empathy for others when what they really have is sympathy. From my experience, empathy is not inherent. It's something you have to work on. It's not about saying 'wow, I wonder how I would feel if that happened to me'. It's about saying 'wow, I wonder how that feels for them'. In my world morality, if it comes about the way I think it does, does not necessarily cover empathy. Empathy is the next step. Moving beyond how things feel for me to attempting to understand how things feel for others.

But I think I see what you're saying. The ability to choose to become truly empathic would from your perspective be God-given. And I believe that one does choose to become truly empathic, because it is arguably not a 'natural' state.

[byofrcs]

No one said 'inherently kind'. But that's the question. Why are some people kind? My answer is 'I don't know, but I'm glad that they are'. Your answer is 'God - he does it whether you believe in him or not'.

I'm glad they are too Fallibleone! I think God designed creation so that we would evolve, in general, into people who have a natural tendency to do Good rather then bad. And in that design there's a spark of God, a fingerprint of God, a fragment of God within us and it guides us , in general, into being kind, compassionate and empathic beings.

I see that as more evidence of the Grace of God. That we are inherently Good people.

Good to see you again Fallibleone. Hope you've been well since our last contact.

On the other hand I think humans evolved without any designer. As a social creature we have evolved behaviours in which aultruistic behaviours are in the long run favoured. No god - only programming. This is supported by computerised simulations using Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma (e.g. here has a lot on this). The payoff is maths - not God. Embarrassing simple huh ?.

Belief in God as a designer denies the uniquely evolved existence of humanity and I feel this both devalues humanity and I feel that widespread ignorance of human nature is dangerous for society.