Gospel of John

[Mithrae]

I'm interested in folk's views on the subject. A few points worth discussing:

1 - Many biblical scholars hold that the gospel was written in the late 1st century CE, some 60ish years after Jesus' death.
- - - the earliest manuscript fragments date from as early as 130CE, if memory serves; the work has strong anti-gnostic themes, and early Christian tradition holds that it was written in opposition to the teaching of Cerinthus (late 1st century)

2 - Many biblical scholars hold that the gospel had the same author as the first epistle of John
- - - the similarities in style, themes (love, anti-gnostic themes etc.) and specific phraseology are obvious even to the untrained reader

3 - 1 John 1:1-3, John 1:14 and John 19:35 are the only distinct eyewitness claims regarding Jesus' life in the bible (besides 2 Peter, widely held to be a 2nd century work)
- - - of particular interest, note the contrast between 19:35 and the appended section in 21:24, which uses third person

4 - While someone present during Jesus' ministry would be in his 80s by the time the gospel was written, there are numerous examples of such comparatively long lives in the ancient world (several notable Greek philosophers, for example)

5 - In addition to the specific eyewitness claims, some verses such as John 5:2 imply a sense of familiarity with Jerusalem which one wouldn't particularly expect from the author of Greek work, unless the author was in fact a Jew



Interested in everyone's thoughts

[Mithrae]

Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great, and Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD.

The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord and the only exception of all the Apostles that he saw when he returned to Jerusalem. And of James the son of Alpheaus, who was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, we learn from Josephus, Eusebius, and Hegesippus, that he was murdered in 62 AD, at the instigation of one of the same Sadducee sect that had his brother Jesus murdered, and that James the righteous was succeeded by Simeon the son of Cleophas/Alpheaus.

Interesting theory, and good food for thought.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the linguistic connection between Alpheus and Clopas is tenuous at best. And even if the names were connected, that wouldn't necessarily mean they're the same person (compare with Levi the son of Alpheus in Mark 2:14); and certainly not that he was the husband of Jesus' mother and father of his brothers. For starters, the gospels state clearly that Jesus' brothers did not believe in him during his ministry (Mark 3:21&31-35 and John 7:5), so how could one of them have been an apostle? Furthermore, John's gospel makes it very clear that Clopas was the husband of a different Mary:

• John 19:25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
  
  Mark 15:40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
  Matthew 27:56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

The mother of James and Joseph could have been Mary the wife of Clopas, but that doesn't change the fact that John makes it impossible to consider her Jesus' mother also. But since it's unlikely that the small very early Christian group included two Marys with sons James and Joseph in that order, and equally improbable that the synoptics would overlook Jesus' mother at the cross, I'd guess that Mary the mother of James and Joseph was indeed Jesus' own mother (James and Joseph being his two oldest brothers, per Mark 6:3).

Interesting point about Salome though; if Mark and Matthew are accurate, it would imply that Salome was the mother of Zebedee's sons. But comparing with John, that would mean that she was probably Mary's sister, Jesus' aunt. That would still help explain Jesus' apparent fondness for the brothers, calling them 'sons of thunder,' and their familiarity in asking to sit at his right and left hand in his glory. Matthew (c70-74 CE) follows Mark in naming only three women at the cross, but by the time John wrote up to twenty years later Simon son of Clopas would have been more widely known as the leader of the Jerusalem church (c62-107 CE), so John's mention of his mother and father is understandable.

Alternatively, it's possible that in John "his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas" was one person - I don't know the Greek of course - with John not mentioning Salome/Zebedee's wife and the other two not mentioning Clopas' wife. Eusebius wrote that according to Hegesippus, Clopas was the brother of Joseph, making his wife Mary the sister of Jesus' mother Mary; whether that's Hegesippus based that on other information, or simply interpreted the verse that way I don't know. It's clear either way that Jesus' mother was not married to Clopas and, if his brothers didn't believe in him, presumably not to Alpheus either (not that we'd have any reason to assume it). But currently I'd lean towards the view that Mark, Matthew and John mention three of the same women at the cross; Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and the wife of Zebedee Salome, Jesus' aunt. That would imply that 'the disciple who Jesus loved' was in fact his young cousin.

[S-word]

Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great, and Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD.

The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord and the only exception of all the Apostles that he saw when he returned to Jerusalem. And of James the son of Alpheaus, who was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, we learn from Josephus, Eusebius, and Hegesippus, that he was murdered in 62 AD, at the instigation of one of the same Sadducee sect that had his brother Jesus murdered, and that James the righteous was succeeded by Simeon the son of Cleophas/Alpheaus.

Interesting theory, and good food for thought.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the linguistic connection between Alpheus and Clopas is tenuous at best. And even if the names were connected, that wouldn't necessarily mean they're the same person (compare with Levi the son of Alpheus in Mark 2:14); and certainly not that he was the husband of Jesus' mother and father of his brothers. For starters, the gospels state clearly that Jesus' brothers did not believe in him during his ministry (Mark 3:21&31-35 and John 7:5), so how could one of them have been an apostle? Furthermore, John's gospel makes it very clear that Clopas was the husband of a different Mary:

• John 19:25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
  
  Mark 15:40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
  Matthew 27:56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

The mother of James and Joseph could have been Mary the wife of Clopas, but that doesn't change the fact that John makes it impossible to consider her Jesus' mother also. But since it's unlikely that the small very early Christian group included two Marys with sons James and Joseph in that order, and equally improbable that the synoptics would overlook Jesus' mother at the cross, I'd guess that Mary the mother of James and Joseph was indeed Jesus' own mother (James and Joseph being his two oldest brothers, per Mark 6:3).

Interesting point about Salome though; if Mark and Matthew are accurate, it would imply that Salome was the mother of Zebedee's sons. But comparing with John, that would mean that she was probably Mary's sister, Jesus' aunt. That would still help explain Jesus' apparent fondness for the brothers, calling them 'sons of thunder,' and their familiarity in asking to sit at his right and left hand in his glory. Matthew (c70-74 CE) follows Mark in naming only three women at the cross, but by the time John wrote up to twenty years later Simon son of Clopas would have been more widely known as the leader of the Jerusalem church (c62-107 CE), so John's mention of his mother and father is understandable.

Alternatively, it's possible that in John "his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas" was one person - I don't know the Greek of course - with John not mentioning Salome/Zebedee's wife and the other two not mentioning Clopas' wife. Eusebius wrote that according to Hegesippus, Clopas was the brother of Joseph, making his wife Mary the sister of Jesus' mother Mary; whether that's Hegesippus based that on other information, or simply interpreted the verse that way I don't know. It's clear either way that Jesus' mother was not married to Clopas and, if his brothers didn't believe in him, presumably not to Alpheus either (not that we'd have any reason to assume it). But currently I'd lean towards the view that Mark, Matthew and John mention three of the same women at the cross; Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and the wife of Zebedee Salome, Jesus' aunt. That would imply that 'the disciple who Jesus loved' was in fact his young cousin.

Matthew 27: 56 reveals the name of two women at the cross of Jesus and they are Mary the mother of James and Joseph. From Matthew 13: 55; we know that James and Joseph are the sons of Mary the mother of Jesus.

By stating in 27: 61; that the two women who witnessed the burial of Jesus, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, he reveals that there are only two women present by the name Mary, not three or more, but only two, and that the OTHER Mary he is referring to is Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Matthew reinforces this by stating that at the empty tomb of Jesus, the only two women present by the name Mary, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, who we know from Matthew 27: 56; to be Mary the mother of Jesus.

As Mark and Luke only mention two women by the name Mary in their accounts of the events surrounding the death, burial, an resurrection of Jesus, and they are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, two of the brothers of the Lord. This reinforces our belief that Matthew is not lying when he told us that there were only two women by the name Mary at the cross of Jesus.

John 19: 25; Reveals who those two women by the name Mary are and what their relationship to each other is, when he says, “Standing close to the cross of Jesus, were his mother and his mother’s sister (And they are), Mary the wife of Cleophas (Who is also called in the Aramiac, Alpheaus) and Mary Magdalene.

I cannot see anyone naming two biological sisters by the same name, “MARY� so I am forced to conclude that as a rabbi in those days was expected to be married, and the bible reveals a very close intimacy between Jesus and Mary, she was either the daughter-in-law to Mary the mother of Jesus, or the young sister to Cleophas/Alpheaus, to who Mary was married at that time.

The Greek word "adelphe" translated as "sister" in John 19: 25; can mean sister, sister-in-law, daughter-in-law, close female relative, or even "Wife" as it is translated in 1st Corinthians 9: 5.

Knowing from Matthew that the only two women at the cross, the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, and Knowing that Jesus from the cross spoke to his mother, “MARY,� we are left with the only Logical conclusion, that the mother of Jesus had married Cleophas/Alpheaus, who was the biological father of James, Simeon and Jude, and that Matthew 13: 55; is correct where it is revealed that Mary was the mother of Jesus, whose brothers were James the younger, Joseph, (of who we seem to know very little) Simeon and Jude.

In Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles mentioned there, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great, and Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD. James the younger who is the son of Mary, who Paul reveals to us, is the brother of the Lord, was sired by Alpheaus/Cleophas.

James the younger who is the son of Mary, who Paul reveals to us is the brother of the Lord, was sired by Alpheaus who is also called Cleophas, to whom Mary the mother of Jesus was remarried.

The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord and the only exception of all the Apostles that he saw when he returned to Jerusalem. And of James the son of Alpheaus who was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem, we learn from Josephus, Eusebius, and Hegesippus, that he was murdered in 62 AD, (almost 20 years after the death of James the son of Zebedee) at the instigation of one of the same Sadducee sect that had his brother Jesus murdered, and that James the righteous was succeeded by Simeon the son of Cleophas/Alpheaus. Simeon the son of Cleophas/Alpheaus was succeeded by 13 other Bishops of the Jerusalem Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, among who, several others like Simeon and James, appear to have been blood relatives of Jesus.

We would expect the risen Jesus to appear to his immediate family first, and this is exactly what we see in scripture. The first to whom the risen Jesus appeared, were the women at the tomb, among whom were Mary his mother who at that time was married to Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene who is believed by many to be the wife of Rabbi Jesus. Mary did not recognise the risen jesus, until she heard him speak her name.

The next to whom he appeared, were Cleophas his mother’s husband, and Simeon the son of Cleophas as they walked to Emmaus some 11 kilometres from Jerusalem, and again, he was not recognised as Jesus, until Simon his stepbrother saw the manner in which he broke the bread.

Rushing back to Jerusalem, Cleophas found 11 of the 12 disciples who were hiding in a dimly lit and locked room, which would have been opened when Cleophas called to them. The only one of the chosen 12, who was missing that night, (According to John the beloved) was Jude, the other stepbrother of Jesus, “who is also called “Thomas Didymus Jude.� Didymus is the Greek for “Twin,� while Tau'ma=Thomas is the Aramaic fro "Twin," whether he had an actual twin, or just held a striking resemblance to someone else, we are not told.

Cleophas, standing at the open door, then says to the 11, which included Simon Peter and Simon the patriot, “He has risen, He appeared to Simon, who had to have been, Simon the stepbrother of Jesus, Simon the son of Cleophas. Just then they saw in the darkness, the form of a man, who they recognised as Jesus.

[Mithrae]

The mother of James and Joseph could have been Mary the wife of Clopas, but that doesn't change the fact that John makes it impossible to consider her Jesus' mother also. But since it's unlikely that the small very early Christian group included two Marys with sons James and Joseph in that order, and equally improbable that the synoptics would overlook Jesus' mother at the cross, I'd guess that Mary the mother of James and Joseph was indeed Jesus' own mother (James and Joseph being his two oldest brothers, per Mark 6:3).

Interesting point about Salome though; if Mark and Matthew are accurate, it would imply that Salome was the mother of Zebedee's sons. But comparing with John, that would mean that she was probably Mary's sister, Jesus' aunt. That would still help explain Jesus' apparent fondness for the brothers, calling them 'sons of thunder,' and their familiarity in asking to sit at his right and left hand in his glory. Matthew (c70-74 CE) follows Mark in naming only three women at the cross, but by the time John wrote up to twenty years later Simon son of Clopas would have been more widely known as the leader of the Jerusalem church (c62-107 CE), so John's mention of his mother and father is understandable.

Alternatively, it's possible that in John "his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas" was one person - I don't know the Greek of course - with John not mentioning Salome/Zebedee's wife and the other two not mentioning Clopas' wife. Eusebius wrote that according to Hegesippus, Clopas was the brother of Joseph, making his wife Mary the sister of Jesus' mother Mary; whether that's Hegesippus based that on other information, or simply interpreted the verse that way I don't know. It's clear either way that Jesus' mother was not married to Clopas and, if his brothers didn't believe in him, presumably not to Alpheus either (not that we'd have any reason to assume it). But currently I'd lean towards the view that Mark, Matthew and John mention three of the same women at the cross; Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and the wife of Zebedee Salome, Jesus' aunt. That would imply that 'the disciple who Jesus loved' was in fact his young cousin.

[snip to end]
The next to whom he appeared, were Cleophas his mother’s husband, and Simeon the son of Cleophas as they walked to Emmaus some 11 kilometres from Jerusalem, and again, he was not recognised as Jesus, until Simon his stepbrother saw the manner in which he broke the bread.

Rushing back to Jerusalem, Cleophas found 11 of the 12 disciples who were hiding in a dimly lit and locked room, which would have been opened when Cleophas called to them. The only one of the chosen 12, who was missing that night, (According to John the beloved) was Jude, the other stepbrother of Jesus, “who is also called “Thomas Didymus Jude.� Didymus is the Greek for “Twin,� while Tau'ma=Thomas is the Aramaic fro "Twin," whether he had an actual twin, or just held a striking resemblance to someone else, we are not told.

Cleophas, standing at the open door, then says to the 11, which included Simon Peter and Simon the patriot, “He has risen, He appeared to Simon, who had to have been, Simon the stepbrother of Jesus, Simon the son of Cleophas. Just then they saw in the darkness, the form of a man, who they recognised as Jesus.

Thanks for the quick reply I should mention that, like a brief exchange with GotScripture, I'll probably enjoy discussing biblical possibilities for their own sake - but ultimately I don't think Luke can be considered a reliable historical source in this case. Mark might be valid information (especially regarding non-evangelical elements like the women at the cross) and Matthew (if written second not far from Judea) might provide useful insight into Mark's information. John as a disciple can be useful at times too, despite his overtly theological approach. But Luke was a gentile convert writing later than Mark and Matthew, whose only known connection is with Paul and who can be shown not only to have relied heavily on Mark and Q as sources (or Mark and Matthew, as some would have it), but to have openly adapted them to his own agenda (as did Matthew of course).

That said, I'm quite glad you mentioned this, because in my trusty NIV and drawing from 1 Cor. 15, I'd always read it as the eleven telling the two that Jesus had appeared to Simon Peter. But checking against the NASB, NKJV and Young's Literal Translation it seems your view is more probable. It's interesting though: In Matthew Jesus is seen by the women then by the 11 (in Galilee); in Luke he's seen by the women, then the two, then the eleven; in late-addition Mark (16:9ff) he's seen by Mary Magdalene, then two disciples, then by the 11, and in John he's seen by Mary Magdalene and then by the 11. If it's true (and I'll agree it seems probable) that Luke was referring to Clopas and his son Simon on the road to Emmaus, and since John makes note of the wife of Clopas at Jesus' cross, might we infer from the fact that he doesn't mention Clopas and his son seeing the risen Christ that he hadn't read Luke? Or did he simply consider the story untrue?

In the same vein, comparing those versions for John 19:25 suggests that it's all down to commas and/or ands whether or not 'Mary of Clopas' was the sister of Jesus' mother (leaning towards she was), but in all of these translations it's quite clear that there are at least three women referred to.

Matthew 27: 56 reveals the name of two women at the cross of Jesus and they are Mary the mother of James and Joseph. From Matthew 13: 55; we know that James and Joseph are the sons of Mary the mother of Jesus.

By stating in 27: 61; that the two women who witnessed the burial of Jesus, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, he reveals that there are only two women present by the name Mary, not three or more, but only two, and that the OTHER Mary he is referring to is Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Matthew reinforces this by stating that at the empty tomb of Jesus, the only two women present by the name Mary, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, who we know from Matthew 27: 56; to be Mary the mother of Jesus.

As Mark and Luke only mention two women by the name Mary in their accounts of the events surrounding the death, burial, an resurrection of Jesus, and they are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, two of the brothers of the Lord. This reinforces our belief that Matthew is not lying when he told us that there were only two women by the name Mary at the cross of Jesus.

John 19: 25; Reveals who those two women by the name Mary are and what their relationship to each other is, when he says, “Standing close to the cross of Jesus, were his mother and his mother’s sister (And they are), Mary the wife of Cleophas (Who is also called in the Aramiac, Alpheaus) and Mary Magdalene.

As above, English translations seem not to support that interpretation of John 19:25 - and additionally, as stated further above, the connection between 'Clopas' and 'Alpheus' is tenuous as best.

As far as Matthew goes, he says there were 'many' women witnessing Jesus' crucifixion (27:55), of whom he mentions three. Calling Jesus' mother "the other Mary" seems another step towards distancing the risen Jesus from his human roots, even beyond Mark identifying her by his brothers rather than by Jesus. Matthew only mentions two Marys, so 'the other Mary' obviously refers to the one who isn't Mary Magdalene; but that isn't the same as saying that there were only two Marys among the 'many' women at the cross, anymore than it's saying there were only two Marys among the many women in Jerusalem.

In Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles mentioned there, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great, and Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD. James the younger who is the son of Mary, who Paul reveals to us, is the brother of the Lord, was sired by Alpheaus/Cleophas.

James the younger who is the son of Mary, who Paul reveals to us is the brother of the Lord, was sired by Alpheaus who is also called Cleophas, to whom Mary the mother of Jesus was remarried.

The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord and the only exception of all the Apostles that he saw when he returned to Jerusalem.

I think there's a problem in that you're placing too much emphasis on a simple name. To my understanding, names like James (Yakov/Jacob in Hebrew), Joseph, Jude/Judah and even Jesus (Yeshua/Joshua) were among the most common male names of 1st century Palestine, for fairly obvious reasons. Mary/Miriam was one of the common female names.

I imagine Alphaeus would not have been among the common ones, but even then the very limited glimpse provided by the NT canon shows us a second Alphaeus who was father of Levi the tax collector (Mark 2:14). In fact, if we're going to make any kind of theory from Alphaeus, we'd be better off recognising that the name of Alphaeus' son Levi was changed to Matthew in the supposed gospel of Matthew (9:9ff), and unlike Mark in his list of disciples Matthew comes immediately before 'James son of Alphaeus' (10:3, with emphasis on Matthew as a tax collector). The gospel of Matthew implies, at least more strongly than your theory, that Alphaeus' sons among Jesus' disciples were James and Matthew, not James and Thomas.

Regarding Paul's comments in Galatians 1, within Paul's writings in particular we know that 'apostle' doesn't mean the same as one of 'the twelve.' Not only does Paul repeatedly refer to himself as an apostle, but he applies the same title to his kin Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7) and to Timothy and Silas - and in Acts 14:4&14 Barnabas along with Paul are called apostles. The term literally means a delegate or messenger, obviously applied by the synoptic authors with special significance to the twelve appointed by Jesus, but potentially applicable to any recognised spreader of the gospel message.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see anything significantly supporting your view that James son of Alphaeus was Jesus' brother. And just as importantly, you haven't addressed a rather significant point against your view: To whit, that the gospels state clearly that Jesus' brothers did not believe in him during his ministry (Mark 3:21&31-35 and John 7:5), so how could two of them have been among the twelve?

[S-word]

The mother of James and Joseph could have been Mary the wife of Clopas, but that doesn't change the fact that John makes it impossible to consider her Jesus' mother also. But since it's unlikely that the small very early Christian group included two Marys with sons James and Joseph in that order, and equally improbable that the synoptics would overlook Jesus' mother at the cross, I'd guess that Mary the mother of James and Joseph was indeed Jesus' own mother (James and Joseph being his two oldest brothers, per Mark 6:3).

Interesting point about Salome though; if Mark and Matthew are accurate, it would imply that Salome was the mother of Zebedee's sons. But comparing with John, that would mean that she was probably Mary's sister, Jesus' aunt. That would still help explain Jesus' apparent fondness for the brothers, calling them 'sons of thunder,' and their familiarity in asking to sit at his right and left hand in his glory. Matthew (c70-74 CE) follows Mark in naming only three women at the cross, but by the time John wrote up to twenty years later Simon son of Clopas would have been more widely known as the leader of the Jerusalem church (c62-107 CE), so John's mention of his mother and father is understandable.

Alternatively, it's possible that in John "his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas" was one person - I don't know the Greek of course - with John not mentioning Salome/Zebedee's wife and the other two not mentioning Clopas' wife. Eusebius wrote that according to Hegesippus, Clopas was the brother of Joseph, making his wife Mary the sister of Jesus' mother Mary; whether that's Hegesippus based that on other information, or simply interpreted the verse that way I don't know. It's clear either way that Jesus' mother was not married to Clopas and, if his brothers didn't believe in him, presumably not to Alpheus either (not that we'd have any reason to assume it). But currently I'd lean towards the view that Mark, Matthew and John mention three of the same women at the cross; Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and the wife of Zebedee Salome, Jesus' aunt. That would imply that 'the disciple who Jesus loved' was in fact his young cousin.

[snip to end]
The next to whom he appeared, were Cleophas his mother’s husband, and Simeon the son of Cleophas as they walked to Emmaus some 11 kilometres from Jerusalem, and again, he was not recognised as Jesus, until Simon his stepbrother saw the manner in which he broke the bread.

Rushing back to Jerusalem, Cleophas found 11 of the 12 disciples who were hiding in a dimly lit and locked room, which would have been opened when Cleophas called to them. The only one of the chosen 12, who was missing that night, (According to John the beloved) was Jude, the other stepbrother of Jesus, “who is also called “Thomas Didymus Jude.� Didymus is the Greek for “Twin,� while Tau'ma=Thomas is the Aramaic fro "Twin," whether he had an actual twin, or just held a striking resemblance to someone else, we are not told.

Cleophas, standing at the open door, then says to the 11, which included Simon Peter and Simon the patriot, “He has risen, He appeared to Simon, who had to have been, Simon the stepbrother of Jesus, Simon the son of Cleophas. Just then they saw in the darkness, the form of a man, who they recognised as Jesus.

Thanks for the quick reply I should mention that, like a brief exchange with GotScripture, I'll probably enjoy discussing biblical possibilities for their own sake - but ultimately I don't think Luke can be considered a reliable historical source in this case. Mark might be valid information (especially regarding non-evangelical elements like the women at the cross) and Matthew (if written second not far from Judea) might provide useful insight into Mark's information. John as a disciple can be useful at times too, despite his overtly theological approach. But Luke was a gentile convert writing later than Mark and Matthew, whose only known connection is with Paul and who can be shown not only to have relied heavily on Mark and Q as sources (or Mark and Matthew, as some would have it), but to have openly adapted them to his own agenda (as did Matthew of course).

That said, I'm quite glad you mentioned this, because in my trusty NIV and drawing from 1 Cor. 15, I'd always read it as the eleven telling the two that Jesus had appeared to Simon Peter. But checking against the NASB, NKJV and Young's Literal Translation it seems your view is more probable. It's interesting though: In Matthew Jesus is seen by the women then by the 11 (in Galilee); in Luke he's seen by the women, then the two, then the eleven; in late-addition Mark (16:9ff) he's seen by Mary Magdalene, then two disciples, then by the 11, and in John he's seen by Mary Magdalene and then by the 11. If it's true (and I'll agree it seems probable) that Luke was referring to Clopas and his son Simon on the road to Emmaus, and since John makes note of the wife of Clopas at Jesus' cross, might we infer from the fact that he doesn't mention Clopas and his son seeing the risen Christ that he hadn't read Luke? Or did he simply consider the story untrue?

In the same vein, comparing those versions for John 19:25 suggests that it's all down to commas and/or ands whether or not 'Mary of Clopas' was the sister of Jesus' mother (leaning towards she was), but in all of these translations it's quite clear that there are at least three women referred to.

Matthew 27: 56 reveals the name of two women at the cross of Jesus and they are Mary the mother of James and Joseph. From Matthew 13: 55; we know that James and Joseph are the sons of Mary the mother of Jesus.

By stating in 27: 61; that the two women who witnessed the burial of Jesus, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, he reveals that there are only two women present by the name Mary, not three or more, but only two, and that the OTHER Mary he is referring to is Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Matthew reinforces this by stating that at the empty tomb of Jesus, the only two women present by the name Mary, were Mary Magdalene and the OTHER Mary, who we know from Matthew 27: 56; to be Mary the mother of Jesus.

As Mark and Luke only mention two women by the name Mary in their accounts of the events surrounding the death, burial, an resurrection of Jesus, and they are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, two of the brothers of the Lord. This reinforces our belief that Matthew is not lying when he told us that there were only two women by the name Mary at the cross of Jesus.

John 19: 25; Reveals who those two women by the name Mary are and what their relationship to each other is, when he says, “Standing close to the cross of Jesus, were his mother and his mother’s sister (And they are), Mary the wife of Cleophas (Who is also called in the Aramiac, Alpheaus) and Mary Magdalene.

As above, English translations seem not to support that interpretation of John 19:25 - and additionally, as stated further above, the connection between 'Clopas' and 'Alpheus' is tenuous as best.

As far as Matthew goes, he says there were 'many' women witnessing Jesus' crucifixion (27:55), of whom he mentions three. Calling Jesus' mother "the other Mary" seems another step towards distancing the risen Jesus from his human roots, even beyond Mark identifying her by his brothers rather than by Jesus. Matthew only mentions two Marys, so 'the other Mary' obviously refers to the one who isn't Mary Magdalene; but that isn't the same as saying that there were only two Marys among the 'many' women at the cross, anymore than it's saying there were only two Marys among the many women in Jerusalem.

In Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles mentioned there, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great, and Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD. James the younger who is the son of Mary, who Paul reveals to us, is the brother of the Lord, was sired by Alpheaus/Cleophas.

James the younger who is the son of Mary, who Paul reveals to us is the brother of the Lord, was sired by Alpheaus who is also called Cleophas, to whom Mary the mother of Jesus was remarried.

The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord and the only exception of all the Apostles that he saw when he returned to Jerusalem.

I think there's a problem in that you're placing too much emphasis on a simple name. To my understanding, names like James (Yakov/Jacob in Hebrew), Joseph, Jude/Judah and even Jesus (Yeshua/Joshua) were among the most common male names of 1st century Palestine, for fairly obvious reasons. Mary/Miriam was one of the common female names.

I imagine Alphaeus would not have been among the common ones, but even then the very limited glimpse provided by the NT canon shows us a second Alphaeus who was father of Levi the tax collector (Mark 2:14). In fact, if we're going to make any kind of theory from Alphaeus, we'd be better off recognising that the name of Alphaeus' son Levi was changed to Matthew in the supposed gospel of Matthew (9:9ff), and unlike Mark in his list of disciples Matthew comes immediately before 'James son of Alphaeus' (10:3, with emphasis on Matthew as a tax collector). The gospel of Matthew implies, at least more strongly than your theory, that Alphaeus' sons among Jesus' disciples were James and Matthew, not James and Thomas.

Regarding Paul's comments in Galatians 1, within Paul's writings in particular we know that 'apostle' doesn't mean the same as one of 'the twelve.' Not only does Paul repeatedly refer to himself as an apostle, but he applies the same title to his kin Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7) and to Timothy and Silas - and in Acts 14:4&14 Barnabas along with Paul are called apostles. The term literally means a delegate or messenger, obviously applied by the synoptic authors with special significance to the twelve appointed by Jesus, but potentially applicable to any recognised spreader of the gospel message.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see anything significantly supporting your view that James son of Alphaeus was Jesus' brother. And just as importantly, you haven't addressed a rather significant point against your view: To whit, that the gospels state clearly that Jesus' brothers did not believe in him during his ministry (Mark 3:21&31-35 and John 7:5), so how could two of them have been among the twelve?

Here are some of the hidden truths in scripture, revealed to me by the spirit of my Lord Jesus Christ, the living spirit that dwells within me and the spirit who guides me through the word’s of our Father, who is our Lord God and saviour.

In death, Jesus descended and was reborn as Noah the Father of the post-flood body of mankind, and now sits in the throne of Godhead to the Most High in creation.

While dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, Jesus descended to the days of those who were dead in relation to the days of the Greaco-Roman Empire in which days Jesus was born, and through the mouth of Noah, he preached the good news to those who were disobedient in the days when the Ark was being built. TIME is Multi-directional, the pre-existence of Jesus, was not initially in the past of Abraham, but in his future, “Before Abraham was (In the past), I am (In the present).�

From the ‘Book of Enoch the Prophet’ CVI: 1-6, “Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was as white as snow and as red as the blooming of a rose and the hair on his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. And thereupon he (Jesus who now sits in the throne of Godhead of our Father) arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with (Enoch) the Lord of righteousness (Who Jesus succeeds). And his father Lamech was afraid of him, (Just as Eve was terrified when she first saw Cain the shinning one and thought to kill him) and Lamech fled and ran to his father Methuselah. And he said to him: “I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different, and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious. And it seems that he is not sprung from me, but from the angels. And I fear that in his days, a wonder may be wrought on the earth.

Jesus was the chosen successor to Enoch, who was the chosen successor to Adam, the first born son of God, see Luke 3: 38. Jesus, the chosen successor to the throne of Godhead to the body of mankind, who is the Most High in the creation, the Lord of all creatures and the prototype of the Lord of Spirits, who is the evolving spirit in Man, “The Son of Man,� who is Lord of all the spiritual godhead to the species that are lower on the ladder of evolution within the creation.

You have said that Paul, who reveals that James, the son of Alpheaus/Cleohas, who was the only one of the apostles that he saw when he returned to Jerusalem, is the brother of the Lord, was not himself one of the chosen twelve. This is what the Lord reveals.

[S-word]

"He, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the God of the living and not of the dead."

Benjamin, is the youngest son of Rachel, the beloved of Jacob whose name was changed to “Israel=Ruling with God.� Jacob was the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, and the third living spirit to be gathered to the evolving living spirit of Enoch, the cornerstone to the Son of Man, who is the living spirit which is developing within the body of the Most High in the creation, which body is Lord of Creatures and the prototype of the Lord of Spirits.

It was the evolving spirit of the “Son of Man� of who Jacob=Israel was the high point of our indwelling Lord at that time, of who Moses said in regard to Benjamin, “This is the tribe the Lord loves and protects; He guards them all the day long, and He dwells in their midst.�

Benjamin was the tribe that was effectively lost, when the other 11 tribes which included Ephraim and Manasseh, slaughtered every, man, woman, and child, from the tribe of Benjamin: but not the tribe of Dan the sterile giant. See Judges 20: 48.

The tribe born of the sterile Dan, originated through his "young sister/adopted daughter," Hushim, who was born of Dan's mother “Bilhah� from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel. She, ben-Dan, married Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin, to whom she bore “Abitub,� through who the line of Dan was counted, and Elpaal, her other son who is the ancestor of Saul the first king of Israel, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite.

Shaharaim had divorced Hushim and travelled to the land of Moab, before the family of Jacob had moved down to live in Egypt. Abitub and Elpaal, the two sons of Hushim are aslo called Muppim and Huppim in Genesis 46: 21; and Shuppim and Huppim in 1st chronicles 7: 12; as the descendands of Benjamin, in which same verse the adopted child of Dan, "Hushim," is also mentioned

The tribe of Dan, were the sons of Hushim the first born of Reuben, the Father of which tribe, was Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin. The tribe of Dan, who was counted as the seventh born son of Israel, received the seventh allotment of land in the Promised kingdom. But being unable to drive out the original inhabitants in the open country that was allocated to them, they were forced to live in the hill country among their brother tribe “Benjamin.�

The only inhabitants of the land of Benjamin who survived the slaughter of that tribe, were 600 fighting men from the tribe of Dan, (Who were actually descendants of Benjamin) who took refuge at the rock of Rimon in the open country, which had been allocated to Dan.

Those 600 survivors of the tribe that was lost, (which was the 12th tribe, as was Judas the 12 disciple, who was pre-destined to be lost) were given 400 virgins, who were the descendants of Dinah the twin sister of Zebulun, the sixth born son of Leah the only true wife of Israel, whose six sons receive the first six blessings of Israel, and Dinah, the seventh born of Israel, divides the six sons of Leah, from the six sons of the mothers of Israel’s other six sons.

Being 200 wives short, the six hundred survivors, were allowed to steal 200 virgins from the other 11 tribes, who had made a solemn vow before God, witnessed by Phinehas the grandson of Aaron, to never allow one of their daughters to marry a member of the tribe of Benjamin. These fathers and brothers, turned their backs while the sons of Shaharaim an Hushim, stole 200 of the virgins who were dancing at the festival at Shiloh.

They were to later steal also, “Jonathan the grandson of Moses� as their priest, and the idol of Micah which I believe was a silver Eagle as they were prominant in the mountainous country of Epharaim, where Jonathan the second cousin of Phinehas, lived and from where Jonathan left in his journey to Bethlehem of Judaea, in order to return his concubine who had run away from him, which woman was raped and sodomised to death by some men from the tribe of Benjamin in Gibeah.

None from the tribe of Dan, the brother tribe to Benjamin, were among the 11 tribes, who slaughtered every man, woman, and child in the country of Benjamin See Judges 20: 47; nor are any from the tribe of Dan counted among the 144000, who are chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7: 4.

The land of Benjamin was divided among the tribe of Judah and the 10 northern tribes of Israel (Levi not counted among them) in which two lands of Judah and Israel, were scattered the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, which pseudo tribe was counted from the women of Benjamin, who had married into the other tribes before the slaughter of the tribe of Benjamin.

Ps 68: verses 24 and 27; (24) “O God your march of triumph is seen by all, the procession of God, my king, into his Sanctuary� (within His New Temple, that replaces his old tabernacle) ------ (27) “First comes Benjamin, the smallest tribe, etc�

After the 600 descendants of Shaharaim, who belonged to the tribe of Dan, had lost the land that they had lived in, they, with their wives, children and all their possessions, moved up into the land of Sidon the first born of Canaan, where, in the ships of Dan they became seafaring merchants, and that tribe, who had taken as their priest, Jonathan the grand son of Moses, can be found in the Greaco-Roman Empire, which according to Legend was founded by the two brothers Romulus (Benjamin who was killed when he leaped the wall) and Remus (Dan who founded Rome) the rape of the Sabine women found in the forcible rape of the 600 virgins.

From the Testament of Dan, the seventh son of Jacob and Bilhah who was raped by Reuben near Eprathah, while Jacob was away visiting his father “Isaac.�
“Nevertheless, Dan prophesied to them (The members of the tribe founded by Hushim the daughter of Bilhah and Reuben the first born.) That they should forget their God, (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) and should be alienated from the land of their inheritance, (Canaan=Palestine=Israel) and from the race of Israel, and from the family of their seed (Reuben the first born).

From the Testament of Benjamin 1: 3; “As Isaac was born to Abraham in his old age, so was I to Jacob, And since Rachel my mother died in giving me birth, I had no milk: therefore I was suckled by Bilhah her hand maid. (Who had been raped by Reuben.)

From the Testament of Benjamin 9: 1-4; to his descendants; "And I believe that there shall be also evil doings among you, from the word’s of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish all save a few, (The descendants of Hushim and Shaharaim) and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among you, for straightway He shall take it away.

Nevertheless the Temple of God (The new bodies of glorious light) shall be in your portion, and the (Second or last) Temple shall be more glorious than the first. And the twelve tribes will be gathered there, (At the second Temple ,�Elijah�) and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only begotten prophet (Enoch who had been anointed by the most high) And He shall (Descend through time) and enter into the first Temple, (The physical body) and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon a tree. And the veil of that temple shall be rent, and the spirit of God shall pass onto the Gentiles as fire poured forth.�

The great simulacrum dies in the process of involution, releasing from the least to the greatest, the spirits on which he evolved. Enoch reborn as Jesus, being the first and the least in the kingdom of God, who was greater tha John the Baptist, the greatest man ever to have been born of woman, who was "Elijah" in evolution.

The great simulacrum/blueprint (The sacrificial Lamb of God) which is in the highest heaven, has not yet descended through time to pour out his immortal body of fire onto the heads of those who believed his words as spoken By Enoch the cornerstone to "The Great simulacrum, that is the Son of Man" who (Enoch the cornerstone the first to be released) was reborn on earth in his chosen host body Jesus.

The Testament of Reuben the first born of Jacob/Israel 3: 11; “Had I not seen Bilhah bathing in a covered place, I had not fallen into this great iniquity. For my mind taking in the thought of the woman’s nakedness, suffered me not ‘to sleep’ until I had wrought the abominable thing. For while Jacob our father had gone to Isaac his father when we were in Eder, near to Ephrath in Bethlehem, (Where Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin who was suckled by the mother’s milk of her handmaid Bilhah) Bilhah became drunk (During the harvest festival) and was asleep uncovered in her chamber. Having therefore gone in and beheld her nakedness, I wrought the impiety without her perceiving it, and leaving her sleeping I departed.

As Benjamin the 12th tribe of Israel was lost, so too was Judas Iscariot, the 12th disciple, destined to be lost. “Iscariot� means, “Man of Kerioth,� and it was in the district of Kerioth-Hazor that the pseudo tribe of Benjamin settled on their return from the captivity in Babylon.

After Judas, a member of the pseudo tribe of Benjamin the 12th disciple who was pre-destined to be lost, had been hung upon a tree, the other 11, chose a replacement for him, but they did not have that authority.

It was Jesus of Nazareth in his glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who chose the replacement to Judas: "Paul," the son of a Roman mother and a father who belonged to the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, to gather the Roman Gentiles as the 12000 chosen from the tribe of Benjamin who had been lost.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ our HOPE.

1st Timothy 1: 1; From Paul, an APOSTLE of Christ Jesus ny order of "GOD OUR SAVIOUR" and Christ Jesus "OUR HOPE."

[Mithrae]

All very interesting, but it's hardly related to the topic. You could have simply said "Paul was meant to replace Judas as the 12th" and it wouldn't have been any more convincing. More importantly, none of it changes the fact that Paul himself makes a distinction between 'the twelve,' and James, and the other apostles including himself (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). Whether or not he considered James an 'apostle,' he obviously didn't consider him one of the twelve - and you still didn't answer the fact that the gospels state Jesus' brothers didn't believe in him during his ministry.

However, even all of that is itself not particularly relevant to the topic. I appreciate your contribution regarding Salome though; if we consider the three verses in Mark 14, Matthew 27 and John 19 as (rather weak) evidence that Salome was wife of Zebedee and Mary's sister, it might be considered circumstantial evidence supporting Jesus' young cousin John as 'the disciple who Jesus loved.'

I'd appreciate it if you didn't post any more wildly off-topic theological treatises.

[S-word]

[Mithrae]….Thanks for the quick reply I should mention that, like a brief exchange with GotScripture, I'll probably enjoy discussing biblical possibilities for their own sake - but ultimately I don't think Luke can be considered a reliable historical source in this case.

[S-word]…..I believe that all of the gospels can be considered reliable historical sources. There’s not much sense debating God’s word with someone, who, whenever scripture is contrary to their belief, they reject that passage of God’s word as being unreliable and not to be believed or trusted.

[Mithrae]….Mark might be valid information (especially regarding non-evangelical elements like the women at the cross) and Matthew (if written second not far from Judea) might provide useful insight into Mark's information.

[S-word]…..So now you think that Mark just might contain valid information as to the women at the cross. Well I believe that Mark and Luke, who like Matthew, reveal that there were only two women at the cross, the burial, and the empty tomb of Jesus, by the name Mary, and that those two “Marys� are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, the two brothers of Jesus.

Where do the Holy scriptures reveal any other mother of children by the name James and Joseph, who herself carries the name “Mary?

Matthew 13: 55; “Isn’t he the carpenter’s son? Isn’t Mary his mother and aren’t (James the younger) Joseph, Simeon and Judas his brothers?�

Mark 6: 3; “Isn’t he the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon?

Mark 6: 3; “Isn’t he the carpenter, (Revealing that he followed in his father’s trade, supported by the fact that Jude his brother, who is called the “Twin� Tau’ma=Thomas, in art is depicted holding a carpenter’s square) the son of Mary, and the brother of James (The apostle who Paul reveals to be the brother of the Lord and who scripture reveals to be the biological son of Alpheaus, who is also called Cleophas.) and scripture reveals that Jude is the brother to James the brother of the lord.

[Mithrae]….John as a disciple can be useful at times too, despite his overtly theological approach. But Luke was a gentile convert writing later than Mark and Matthew, whose only known connection is with Paul and who can be shown not only to have relied heavily on Mark and Q as sources (or Mark and Matthew, as some would have it), but to have openly adapted them to his own agenda (as did Matthew of course).

[S-word]…..Ah Hah, so now you believe that John the beloved nephew and young disciple of Jesus, could be useful to your belief at times, do you? John who was surnamed son of thunder by Jesus and is identified with young John, who was surnamed “MARK,� which name means “Hammer, or the Hammerer,� the adopted son of Mary the half sister to Joseph the Levite who had come from Cyprus, and who was surnamed Barnabas.

It was the custom of the disciples after the death of Jesus, to gather frequently to pray as a group with the women and the mother of Jesus. When Peter was miraculously released from prison, he ran straight to the house where he knew the believers would be gathered in prayer for his deliverance: straight to the house of “Mary the mother of John surnamed MARK.�

Acts 12: 25; Barnabas and Saul/Paul finished their mission and returned from Jerusalem, taking young John surnamed “MARK’ with them.

In Acts 15: 37; we read that Barnabas wanted to take John “MARK� the adopted son of his half sister MARY with himself and Paul to revisit the brethren in all the towns in Pamphylia where they had preached the word of the Lord, which had been revealed to them by the man Jesus who the Lord had chosen from among the people and sent him to speak in His name. But Paul refused to take John, because he hadn’t stayed with them to the end of their previous mission, but had turned back and left them in Pamphylia.

After a quarrel with Paul, Joseph the Levite from Cyprus, took Mark, ‘and it is believed his half sister also,’ and sailed off for Cyprus. It was there in the land of Macedonia that John recorded his memoirs from which the Gospel of John was written. Today, in the town of Ephesus, the ancient grave sites of Mary and John can still be visited.

Colossians 4: 10; Aristarchus, who is in prison with me, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, the son of the sister to Barnabas.


[Mithrae]….That said, I'm quite glad you mentioned this, because in my trusty NIV and drawing from 1 Cor. 15, I'd always read it as the eleven telling the two that Jesus had appeared to Simon Peter. But checking against the NASB, NKJV and Young's Literal Translation it seems your view is more probable.

[S-word]…..It’s not my view, it’s the truth as revealed by the spirit of the lord Jesus Christ.

[Mithrae]….It's interesting though: In Matthew Jesus is seen by the women then by the 11 (in Galilee);

[S-word]…..You are not suggesting, are you, that because Matthew fails to tell of the time that the 12 year old Jesus was found in the Temple three days after he went missing, and fails to mention that Jesus appeared to his mother’s husband Cleophas and his brother Simon, that this proves that those who do reveal those events, are lying?


[Mithrae]…. in Luke he's seen by the women, then the two, then the eleven; in late-addition Mark (16:9ff) he's seen by Mary Magdalene, then two disciples, then by the 11, and in John he's seen by Mary Magdalene and then by the 11. If it's true (and I'll agree it seems probable) that Luke was referring to Clopas and his son Simon on the road to Emmaus, and since John makes note of the wife of Clopas at Jesus' cross, might we infer from the fact that he doesn't mention Clopas and his son seeing the risen Christ that he hadn't read Luke? Or did he simply consider the story untrue?

[S-word]…..No, we do not believe that the reason John makes no mention of the physical birth of Jesus, or the accounts in Luke and Mathew, which reveal the fact that Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah took the pregnant Mary, from Nazareth down to Bethlehem of Judaea where she gave birth to Jesus, and that this Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary until she had given birth to her firstborn son, was because he considered those stories to be untrue. WOT_ROT

Nor do we believe that the reason John makes no mention of the wise men coming to pay homage to the young child Jesus, or the fact that Herod ordered the death of all the young boys in the district to where the wise men had gone, was because he considered those stories to be untrue.

John’s main focus, was in the salvation of Man, and he begins his account of that salvation, when Jesus, who had been born of the flesh as are all human beings, was born of the Spirit of our Lord God and saviour that descended upon him in the form of Dove, and on that Day, Jesus was declared to be the first fruits to be harvested from the Body of mankind in which our Lord God and saviour had developed, the first born of many brothers, who, (like Jesus was,) are to be born the Sons of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of the body of our lord God and saviour, by which they will be filled.

From where do these ideas of yours come from?

[Mithrae]….In the same vein, comparing those versions for John 19:25 suggests that it's all down to commas and/or ands whether or not 'Mary of Clopas' was the sister of Jesus' mother (leaning towards she was), but in all of these translations it's quite clear that there are at least three women referred to.

[S-word]…..Not so my dear confused friend, by comparing John 19: 25; with the fact that Mark and Luke, refer to only two women by the name Mary, at the cross, or the burial, or the empty tomb of Jesus, who are Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, who are referred to in scripture to be the brothers of the Lord and not to be the brothers of any other person, and the fact that Matthew makes it abundantly clear that the woman by the name Mary, who was with Mary Magdalene at the cross of Jesus, who Matthew states was Mary the mother of (Jesus,) James and Joseph, was the only other woman by the name Mary at the burial and empty tomb.

Also, by referring to her, (The mother of Jesus and the apostle by the name James, who Paul reveals is the brother of the Lord, and who scripture reveals if the biological son of Alpheaus who is also called Cleophas the second husband of Mary,) as the OTHER Mary at the burial, and the OTHER Mary at the empty tomb, proves conclusivly that there are only two women at the cross, the burial, and the empty tomb of jesus..

Not the TWO OTHER women by the name Mary, who you so erroneously believe, which proves to all, that you are totally lacking in insight, by believing, totally contrary to the Holy scriptures, that John is referring to three women at the cross of Jesus, who are known by the name Mary.

[Mithrae]….As above, English translations seem not to support that interpretation of John 19:25 - and additionally, as stated further above, the connection between 'Clopas' and 'Alpheus' is tenuous as best.

[S-word]…..The renown father of Cleophas, which is a Macedonian name and is the masculine for of Cleopatra, is Alexander Helios, (Heli) Who Herod had eliminated in 13 BC, as he was seen as a threat to his throne. Heli, the son of Cleopatra and Mark Antony, and the twin brother to the young 20 year old Cleopatra, the young wife of Herod the great, the close friend and former supporter of Mark Antony, who was the mother of Philip of Bethsaida, the uncle of Jesus, who ruled the Macedonian territory north and east of Galilee where our Lord God and saviour, through his obedient servant Jesus, performed most of his mighty miracles, see Matthew 11: 21; and Luke 10: 12.

It was near Bethsaida that Jesus put Philip to the test, see John 6: 5; when in reference to the feeding of the five thousand, he said to his uncle, who in art, is depicted with fish, or is it loaves? “Where can we buy enough food to feed all these people.�

When feeding the four thousand, that again, was in the territory of Philip, but down south of Galilee in the desert country east of the Jordon. Phillip of Bethsaida, to whom the Greeks came in search of an audience with Jesus .� Philip, who disappears from the scene in the year of the death of Jesus.

[Mithrae]….As far as Matthew goes, he says there were 'many' women witnessing Jesus' crucifixion (27:55), of whom he mentions three. Calling Jesus' mother "the other Mary" seems another step towards distancing the risen Jesus from his human roots, even beyond Mark identifying her by his brothers rather than by Jesus. Matthew only mentions two Marys, so 'the other Mary' obviously refers to the one who isn't Mary Magdalene; but that isn't the same as saying that there were only two Marys among the 'many' women at the cross, anymore than it's saying there were only two Marys among the many women in Jerusalem.

[S-word]…..I’ve just put this problem to one of my young great grandchildren: “There are many cakes on the table, one has green icing on top, another has yellow icing on top. Next morning the cake with the green icing on top was removed from the table, as was the other iced cake, later the cake with the green icing was placed into the refrigerator with the other iced cake to keep them fresh.� I then asked the child to identify the cakes that had been placed in the refrigerator, and guess what? That little child knew the answer.

[Mithrae]….I think there's a problem in that you're placing too much emphasis on a simple name. To my understanding, names like James (Yakov/Jacob in Hebrew), Joseph, Jude/Judah and even Jesus (Yeshua/Joshua) were among the most common male names of 1st century Palestine, for fairly obvious reasons. Mary/Miriam was one of the common female names.

[S-word]…..Now reveal to us where, in the Holy Scriptures, are the names of James Joseph, Judas, and Simon, conjointly referred to, other than as the brothers of Jesus? Then reveal to us, where in the Holy Scriptures are the names of James and Joseph the sons of Mary, referred to as any other than the brothers of Jesus?

[Mithrae]….I imagine Alphaeus would not have been among the common ones, but even then the very limited glimpse provided by the NT canon shows us a second Alphaeus who was father of Levi the tax collector (Mark 2:14). In fact, if we're going to make any kind of theory from Alphaeus, we'd be better off recognising that the name of Alphaeus' son Levi was changed to Matthew in the supposed gospel of Matthew (9:9ff), and unlike Mark in his list of disciples Matthew comes immediately before 'James son of Alphaeus' (10:3, with emphasis on Matthew as a tax collector). The gospel of Matthew implies, at least more strongly than your theory, that Alphaeus' sons among Jesus' disciples were James and Matthew, not James and Thomas.

[S-word]…..Mark 2: 14; “Alpheaus OF Levi who is called Matthew:� can be interpreted as brother, cousin, or relative, and I believe that the interpretation “SON of Alpheaus" is incorrect, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. In the Epistle of Jude, in reference to the relationship of Jude to James the son of Alpheaus, who is the brother of the Lord, ADELPHOS (Ἀδελφός): the Greek name meaning "born of the same womb; brother, half brother or step brother," is used, and you will find, I believe, that it is translated as, “Jude the brother of James� in just about every biblical translation. Whereas in Luke 6: 16; where it is written “Judas of James,� apart from the King James translation, which correctly interprets this verse to mean “Jude the brother of James,� the majority of other bibles, as they have done in Mark 2: 14; erroneously interpret this verse as “Jude the Son of James.


[Mithrae]….Regarding Paul's comments in Galatians 1, within Paul's writings in particular we know that 'apostle' doesn't mean the same as one of 'the twelve.' Not only does Paul repeatedly refer to himself as an apostle, but he applies the same title to his kin Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7) and to Timothy and Silas - and in Acts 14:4&14 Barnabas along with Paul are called apostles. The term literally means a delegate or messenger, obviously applied by the synoptic authors with special significance to the twelve appointed by Jesus, but potentially applicable to any recognised spreader of the gospel message.

[S-word]…..Paul the son of a Roman woman and a father from the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, was the one chosen by my Lord Jesus Christ to replace Judas Iscariot the 12th chosen disciple, who was destined to be lost, as the apostle who was to gather the 12000 of the Greco-Roman gentiles to replace the lost 12th tribe of Benjamin.

[Mithrae]…. I'm sorry, but I really don't see anything significantly supporting your view that James son of Alphaeus was Jesus' brother. And just as importantly, you haven't addressed a rather significant point against your view: To whit, that the gospels state clearly that Jesus' brothers did not believe in him during his ministry (Mark 3:21&31-35 and John 7:5), so how could two of them have been among the twelve?

[S-word]…..Where does the bible say that all four brothers of Jesus did not believe in him during his ministry? But keep muddeling through the word, one day perhaps you may hopefully come to the truth and win the victory and be invited to sit beside our brother Jesus, in our Father's throne of Godhead to the creation: see Revelation 3: 21.

[Mithrae]

Thanks for the interesting reply. To avoid taking the thread too far off-topic, I've started a new thread here where I'll try to reply to your comments

[Confused]

"He, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the God of the living and not of the dead."

Benjamin, is the youngest son of Rachel, the beloved of Jacob whose name was changed to “Israel=Ruling with God.� Jacob was the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, and the third living spirit to be gathered to the evolving living spirit of Enoch, the cornerstone to the Son of Man, who is the living spirit which is developing within the body of the Most High in the creation, which body is Lord of Creatures and the prototype of the Lord of Spirits.

It was the evolving spirit of the “Son of Man� of who Jacob=Israel was the high point of our indwelling Lord at that time, of who Moses said in regard to Benjamin, “This is the tribe the Lord loves and protects; He guards them all the day long, and He dwells in their midst.�

Benjamin was the tribe that was effectively lost, when the other 11 tribes which included Ephraim and Manasseh, slaughtered every, man, woman, and child, from the tribe of Benjamin: but not the tribe of Dan the sterile giant. See Judges 20: 48.

The tribe born of the sterile Dan, originated through his "young sister/adopted daughter," Hushim, who was born of Dan's mother “Bilhah� from the rape of Reuben the first born of Israel. She, ben-Dan, married Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin, to whom she bore “Abitub,� through who the line of Dan was counted, and Elpaal, her other son who is the ancestor of Saul the first king of Israel, who stood a head taller than any other Israelite.

Shaharaim had divorced Hushim and travelled to the land of Moab, before the family of Jacob had moved down to live in Egypt. Abitub and Elpaal, the two sons of Hushim are aslo called Muppim and Huppim in Genesis 46: 21; and Shuppim and Huppim in 1st chronicles 7: 12; as the descendands of Benjamin, in which same verse the adopted child of Dan, "Hushim," is also mentioned

The tribe of Dan, were the sons of Hushim the first born of Reuben, the Father of which tribe, was Shaharaim from the tribe of Benjamin. The tribe of Dan, who was counted as the seventh born son of Israel, received the seventh allotment of land in the Promised kingdom. But being unable to drive out the original inhabitants in the open country that was allocated to them, they were forced to live in the hill country among their brother tribe “Benjamin.�

The only inhabitants of the land of Benjamin who survived the slaughter of that tribe, were 600 fighting men from the tribe of Dan, (Who were actually descendants of Benjamin) who took refuge at the rock of Rimon in the open country, which had been allocated to Dan.

Those 600 survivors of the tribe that was lost, (which was the 12th tribe, as was Judas the 12 disciple, who was pre-destined to be lost) were given 400 virgins, who were the descendants of Dinah the twin sister of Zebulun, the sixth born son of Leah the only true wife of Israel, whose six sons receive the first six blessings of Israel, and Dinah, the seventh born of Israel, divides the six sons of Leah, from the six sons of the mothers of Israel’s other six sons.

Being 200 wives short, the six hundred survivors, were allowed to steal 200 virgins from the other 11 tribes, who had made a solemn vow before God, witnessed by Phinehas the grandson of Aaron, to never allow one of their daughters to marry a member of the tribe of Benjamin. These fathers and brothers, turned their backs while the sons of Shaharaim an Hushim, stole 200 of the virgins who were dancing at the festival at Shiloh.

They were to later steal also, “Jonathan the grandson of Moses� as their priest, and the idol of Micah which I believe was a silver Eagle as they were prominant in the mountainous country of Epharaim, where Jonathan the second cousin of Phinehas, lived and from where Jonathan left in his journey to Bethlehem of Judaea, in order to return his concubine who had run away from him, which woman was raped and sodomised to death by some men from the tribe of Benjamin in Gibeah.

None from the tribe of Dan, the brother tribe to Benjamin, were among the 11 tribes, who slaughtered every man, woman, and child in the country of Benjamin See Judges 20: 47; nor are any from the tribe of Dan counted among the 144000, who are chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7: 4.

The land of Benjamin was divided among the tribe of Judah and the 10 northern tribes of Israel (Levi not counted among them) in which two lands of Judah and Israel, were scattered the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, which pseudo tribe was counted from the women of Benjamin, who had married into the other tribes before the slaughter of the tribe of Benjamin.

Ps 68: verses 24 and 27; (24) “O God your march of triumph is seen by all, the procession of God, my king, into his Sanctuary� (within His New Temple, that replaces his old tabernacle) ------ (27) “First comes Benjamin, the smallest tribe, etc�

After the 600 descendants of Shaharaim, who belonged to the tribe of Dan, had lost the land that they had lived in, they, with their wives, children and all their possessions, moved up into the land of Sidon the first born of Canaan, where, in the ships of Dan they became seafaring merchants, and that tribe, who had taken as their priest, Jonathan the grand son of Moses, can be found in the Greaco-Roman Empire, which according to Legend was founded by the two brothers Romulus (Benjamin who was killed when he leaped the wall) and Remus (Dan who founded Rome) the rape of the Sabine women found in the forcible rape of the 600 virgins.

From the Testament of Dan, the seventh son of Jacob and Bilhah who was raped by Reuben near Eprathah, while Jacob was away visiting his father “Isaac.�
“Nevertheless, Dan prophesied to them (The members of the tribe founded by Hushim the daughter of Bilhah and Reuben the first born.) That they should forget their God, (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) and should be alienated from the land of their inheritance, (Canaan=Palestine=Israel) and from the race of Israel, and from the family of their seed (Reuben the first born).

From the Testament of Benjamin 1: 3; “As Isaac was born to Abraham in his old age, so was I to Jacob, And since Rachel my mother died in giving me birth, I had no milk: therefore I was suckled by Bilhah her hand maid. (Who had been raped by Reuben.)

From the Testament of Benjamin 9: 1-4; to his descendants; "And I believe that there shall be also evil doings among you, from the word’s of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish all save a few, (The descendants of Hushim and Shaharaim) and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among you, for straightway He shall take it away.

Nevertheless the Temple of God (The new bodies of glorious light) shall be in your portion, and the (Second or last) Temple shall be more glorious than the first. And the twelve tribes will be gathered there, (At the second Temple ,�Elijah�) and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only begotten prophet (Enoch who had been anointed by the most high) And He shall (Descend through time) and enter into the first Temple, (The physical body) and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon a tree. And the veil of that temple shall be rent, and the spirit of God shall pass onto the Gentiles as fire poured forth.�

The great simulacrum dies in the process of involution, releasing from the least to the greatest, the spirits on which he evolved. Enoch reborn as Jesus, being the first and the least in the kingdom of God, who was greater tha John the Baptist, the greatest man ever to have been born of woman, who was "Elijah" in evolution.

The great simulacrum/blueprint (The sacrificial Lamb of God) which is in the highest heaven, has not yet descended through time to pour out his immortal body of fire onto the heads of those who believed his words as spoken By Enoch the cornerstone to "The Great simulacrum, that is the Son of Man" who (Enoch the cornerstone the first to be released) was reborn on earth in his chosen host body Jesus.

The Testament of Reuben the first born of Jacob/Israel 3: 11; “Had I not seen Bilhah bathing in a covered place, I had not fallen into this great iniquity. For my mind taking in the thought of the woman’s nakedness, suffered me not ‘to sleep’ until I had wrought the abominable thing. For while Jacob our father had gone to Isaac his father when we were in Eder, near to Ephrath in Bethlehem, (Where Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin who was suckled by the mother’s milk of her handmaid Bilhah) Bilhah became drunk (During the harvest festival) and was asleep uncovered in her chamber. Having therefore gone in and beheld her nakedness, I wrought the impiety without her perceiving it, and leaving her sleeping I departed.

As Benjamin the 12th tribe of Israel was lost, so too was Judas Iscariot, the 12th disciple, destined to be lost. “Iscariot� means, “Man of Kerioth,� and it was in the district of Kerioth-Hazor that the pseudo tribe of Benjamin settled on their return from the captivity in Babylon.

After Judas, a member of the pseudo tribe of Benjamin the 12th disciple who was pre-destined to be lost, had been hung upon a tree, the other 11, chose a replacement for him, but they did not have that authority.

It was Jesus of Nazareth in his glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who chose the replacement to Judas: "Paul," the son of a Roman mother and a father who belonged to the pseudo tribe of Benjamin, to gather the Roman Gentiles as the 12000 chosen from the tribe of Benjamin who had been lost.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ our HOPE.

1st Timothy 1: 1; From Paul, an APOSTLE of Christ Jesus ny order of "GOD OUR SAVIOUR" and Christ Jesus "OUR HOPE."

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[East of Eden]

as a trial lawyer schooled in the art of 'evidence', I can tell you that 'eyewitness' testimony repeated after the fact is typically unreliable and suspect.

And yet it is accepted as evidence in court.