Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

.
From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[Clownboat]

From Post 149:

I'll stop at this response so as not to further clutter the thread. I make my comments to enlighten, and feel they have some bearing on the OP, or other claims and notions presented about it.

You wouldn't be insulted though would you if I found claims of demons being real more believable if they came from someone other than yourself though, right? (Due to your explanation).

It won't bother me if even I'm not believed. I can reckon from the outside my claims and such sound awful goofy.

Where demons are "spirit", then who's to say? My voices are as real as if you yourself were speaking. It ain't that I 'sense' them. I hear them. They're there as sure as I'm a doofus, and I got me a bunch of that. I'm aware of some studies declaring that brain activity can be seen to occur in close association with such events (in support of 'em being 'real').

So then, is someone who hears something hearing from the "spirit world", or is it simply a deal with the brain? While I would agree the most rational conclusion is the brain at work, how proud must I be to say the "spirit world" can't possibly speak to me in the manner "it" deems fit?

Sure, I've concluded abnormal brain activity or structure. That doesn't mean I'm gonna declare another's demons a "figment of their imagination". 'Cause I hear my demons, I don't imagine 'em. They're as real as grits are groceries. Their invisibleness is as real and scary as any notion I can imagine.

Thus why I feel it is important to consider the source over this claim of demons being real.

Who would be surprised to hear a dentist claim that they work on teeth?
Or a lawyer that claims they practice law?
Or a schizophrenic that claims demons are real?

I can dig it. I present my comments so's folks get 'em some good evaluatin'.

Thus the request for further clarification. Obviously, there are those that seem to understand that the voices/hallucinations are not real.

This gets back to the issue of being able to record these events as brain activity.

I hate to offer a piece of an abstract, but here's some bit of evidence of the realness of these events...

Our results provide direct evidence of the involvement of primary auditory areas in auditory verbal hallucinations and establish novel constraints for psychopathological models.

So, we have some data to indicate these are 'real' sounds. They are indeed perceived. They're there in the real sense that we can see 'em "as they occur".

I'm not trying to defend some supernatural hoodoo here. I seek to point out that these voices are perceived in as real a sense as any sounds we hear.

I assume that there are also those that don't understand that the voices/hallucinations are not real.

While I contend they can be observed and measured through brain activity, making 'em up to as real as possible without air being harmed in the process.

Could this be a valid reason for some to believe in actual demons?

I happen to disagree with declarations of "spirit demons" in the religious sense, but don't it beat all, here I sit with 'em.

I did not mean to question the "realness" of the heard voices or viewed hallucinations. I have no doubt that the voices are "heard".

It's the source of the voices I questions as being real or not as in, are these actual voices I'm hearing coming from a real demon that is communicating with me, or more to do with (to use your words) abnormal brain activity or structure.

Some acknowledge the abnormal activity, so I wonder if others don't and therefore perceive the source to be a real demon.

[arian]

Well, .. I look at the simple things that we man (not animals) plan, design and create, so the more (far, far more) complex and complicated things like biological life, and the fruitful, reasoning man, a Creator must have created it. I know it wasn't man, we can only make simple things like cell phones and such.

Complexity does not imply design. "It is complex therefore someone must have made it," is a non sequitur fallacy.

No kidding?

We create, so the more complex things that we can't yet create, a Creator must have created it is non sequitur? My implication to a Creator makes perfect sense, resolves the infinite regress problem.

Non Sequitur
(also known as: derailment, “that does not follow�, irrelevant reason, invalid inference, non-support, argument by scenario [form of], false premise [form of], questionable premise [form of])

Description: When the conclusion does not follow from the premises. In more informal reasoning, it can be when what is presented as evidence or reason is irrelevant or adds very little support to the conclusion.

Logical Form:
Claim A is made.
Evidence is presented for Claim A.
Therefore, claim C is true.

Example #1:
People generally like to walk on the beach. Beaches have sand. Therefore, having sand floors in homes would be a great idea!

Explanation: As cool as the idea of sand floors might sound, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. The fact that people generally like to walk on sand does not mean that they want sand in their homes, just like because people generally like to swim, they shouldn’t flood their houses.

Your statement:

'Complexity does not imply design. "It is complex therefore someone must have made it," is a non sequitur fallacy.'

is a perfect example in where the use of 'non-sequitur' is actually non sequitur.

What you consider the human animal part (the body) is not God. What makes man in the image of God is his spirit, his mind. If you have restricted your mind to using your brain only, then yes, we can say that; "man is just a human-animal!" .. that is true. Oh yea, .. and man can treat his fellow man as animals too, slaughter them like animals, put them down like animals, take their skin off and make lampshades out of them just as they make rugs out of bears and lions, .. so since man has free will to act like an animal, he takes that inherent right and in many cases exercises it.

What made you think treating each other with respect and love, is mutually exclusive with treating them like animals?

Have you EVER heard of a slaughterhouse? Or been to a European "Smoked meat and sausage" market?

Now if for many generations no one comes to tell them that a Ford factory Intelligently designed and manufactured that car they seen under the tree, and Ford never shows up to claim he did, you are saying that there would be no way to scientifically prove the car had a creator, a designer, a maker?

Haven't see the movie, but of course there are ways to scientifically prove the car had a creator. I wouldn't be bragging about how one could prove a car designer, when you can't scientifically prove that life had a creator.

Well I'm not bragging, but taking the car apart piece by piece and taking a screw, analyzing it, and make a rough one out of wood would give the villagers a pretty good idea of a creator/car designer, don't you think?

But no matter what you make of the created, it remains the 'created'. Another words people will never make/create the Creator from the created, no matter how many billion year story they make up, or how many gods they create, the created will remain the created.

But the mind as I have shown IS the Creator. We don't need to dig up the ground, cut trees, or make iron to hammer to create things out of, in the mind we can create anything, .. even from materials not yet seen or even heard of?

The evidence of a Creator is undeniable no matter how you look at it, but looking at it from a scientific point of view is the most accurate, actually the way I see it and understand it, it is the only way. If we make up un-evidenced scientific fairytales, or gods from religion, you'll end up with a finite/created god/gods, not The Infinite, Eternal Creator God.

[Zzyzx]

.

Well I'm not bragging, but taking the car apart piece by piece and taking a screw, analyzing it, and make a rough one out of wood would give the villagers a pretty good idea of a creator/car designer, don't you think?

I disagree. Analyzing or making a copy of a screw would give villagers absolutely no understanding of the originator – any more than making a poor copy of a Rembrandt painting would give the copier any knowledge of Rembrandt.

The evidence of a Creator is undeniable no matter how you look at it,

Correction: The "evidence of a creator" is non-existent except in the imagination of proponents.

[Bust Nak]

No kidding?

We create, so the more complex things that we can't yet create, a Creator must have created it is non sequitur?

Correct.

My implication to a Creator makes perfect sense, resolves the infinite regress problem.

And insert in its place, the first cause problem.

Non Sequitur [definition cropped]
Your statement:

'Complexity does not imply design. "It is complex therefore someone must have made it," is a non sequitur fallacy.'

is a perfect example in where the use of 'non-sequitur' is actually non sequitur.

What a weird thing to say, you like having sand in your home?

Designed objects generally are complex. Life is complex. Therefore, Life must have been designed!

Explanation: As cool as the idea of designed life might sound or not, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. The fact that designed objects generally are complex, doesn't mean all complex things are designed.

Have you EVER heard of a slaughterhouse? Or been to a European "Smoked meat and sausage" market?

Of course, but that doesn't tell me why think treating each other with respect and love, is mutually exclusive with treating them like animals? At best that tells me why you would think killing each other is consistent with treating them like animals.

Well I'm not bragging, but taking the car apart piece by piece and taking a screw, analyzing it, and make a rough one out of wood would give the villagers a pretty good idea of a creator/car designer, don't you think?

Of course. That you couldn't do the same with life as you could with a car, is all the more reason to believe life isn't designed, right?

But no matter what you make of the created, it remains the 'created'. Another words people will never make/create the Creator from the created, no matter how many billion year story they make up, or how many gods they create, the created will remain the created.

I wouldn't be so sure. Computers can already design themselves.

But the mind as I have shown IS the Creator. We don't need to dig up the ground, cut trees, or make iron to hammer to create things out of, in the mind we can create anything, .. even from materials not yet seen or even heard of?

But there are as many minds as there are people. The collection of minds is the creator? Or lots of creators?

The evidence of a Creator is undeniable no matter how you look at it, but looking at it from a scientific point of view is the most accurate, actually the way I see it and understand it, it is the only way. If we make up un-evidenced scientific fairytales, or gods from religion, you'll end up with a finite/created god/gods, not The Infinite, Eternal Creator God.

So much for undeniable.

[arian]

As a scientifically minded person, I can ONLY go by what I can observe, which is the world around me.

Have you observed any supernatural entities in the world around you?

You mean demons, .. yes.

I believe that this clarification is very important after such a claim:
- Do you take Lithium and suffer from Schizophrenia?

Your answer will not prove your statement one way or the other, but if either are a "yes", it should be known so readers can evaluate your claim.

Thanks for your honesty.

Schizophrenia
(Consult a doctor if you have a medical concern.)
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to: Tell the difference between what is real and not real; Think clearly; Have normal emotional responses; Act normally in social situations.

Now be honest Clownboat, I am here only to help you OK?

Now please tell me, in the past few weeks there was a holiday here in The USA called Thanksgiving. Now just answer yes or no OK, no need for alarm, this is only a test: Have you seen families sit around a table with a roasted turkey on it, with all the dressings on the table, then all of a sudden before they take of the food STOP, .. and everyone goes silent, .. then put their hands together, bow their heads, and then one person speaks out to some entity as if it was really there listening or something and says what they call a 'prayer'?

If you did, how did you respond to this?

1. What did you think of this abnormal social behavior? When/if they told you they were thanking some Spirit God, did you tell them that there was no one really there, that they were failing to recognize what is real?

2. Did you sneak in Lithium powder or drops, or whatever into their eggnog to help them cope, or help them tell reality from delusion?

Do you see this often, .. you know, people, entire families of apes praying to no-one-there, talking to him/them? Do you sometimes envision billions of evolving human apes doing this on daily bases? Are you sure they are talking to no one? Have you used Microwave background Radiation cameras to see maybe there is someone or something there that you just cannot see?

According to Clownboat, Praying out loud, dreaming and telling people about it, taking LSD and telling their friends about the trip, seeing UFO's like I described the meteor-like smoke flying between me and a co-worker and actually telling people about the experience, or if someone claims that a man told him in a dream; "You would go even beyond what I say" is considered;

Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfri�niə/) is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences.

"WOW, .. Dude! Now that acid trip was awesome! Man, .. I seen some psychedelic shit (generic shit, no smell to it) I tell you! Man, .. after 12 hours and I'm still trippin'!!!"

Clownboat's diagnosis: Schizophrenia
Treatment: Immediate medical help, straightjacket, Lithium in eggnog, .. what else Clownboat? Any other suggestions besides 'not to take any of such persons debates seriously'?

Have you seen or heard of scientists, these guys are very educated, yet as they look and analyze fossils (these are rocks with animal imprints in them) to a point they say they see "One species of animals turning into other species of animals"?

What is your professional, or just general opinion of these Evolutionary Scientists, and what could I as a good citizen do to help stop them from printing book after book of their delusions that are actually having some emotional effect on our population?
Suggested dose of Lithium _____ ?
PRN, .. or to be kept heavily medicated 24/7?

Also, if Walt Disney was still alive, what dose of Lithium would you suggest could have controlled his delusions from reality? I'm sure you'd agree that the damage he caused with his "talking animals" is practically beyond repair. Children of all ages drag around stuffed animals like mice and ducks and talk to them. They even have to have them in bed next to them! It's too late for Walt, but what dose of Lithium do you suggest for the children? I mean just try to take away Donald or Daffy from them!

How about (here is a good patient for you) the artist called Picasso, .. now if he was debating with us in the here and now, and sometimes would post some of his paintings here, I'm sure you would find some disturbing problems with the mind of this man just from his paintings correct? May I ask; what dose of Lithium do you suppose would have helped him start painting 'reality' stuff like; pretty flowers, and colorful pyramid shapes, and logical and helpful posters like;
"OBEY"
"Resistance is futile"
"Either you're with us, or against us, and we have cameras and face recognition so we know who you are!"
.. and nice normal things like that? Reality stuff! Your opinion on Walt and Picasso? (I can give you hundreds more like Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Grimm, Darwin, ..)


Thanks.

[arian]

.

Well I'm not bragging, but taking the car apart piece by piece and taking a screw, analyzing it, and make a rough one out of wood would give the villagers a pretty good idea of a creator/car designer, don't you think?

I disagree. Analyzing or making a copy of a screw would give villagers absolutely no understanding of the originator – any more than making a poor copy of a Rembrandt painting would give the copier any knowledge of Rembrandt.

A copy if a screw or a bolt would reveal a creator; "Aahh.. look at my son, he made a copy of a 67 Ford mustang hood, or bolt!" He's gona be the next Ford, a car builder he is, just look at this honey!" Just as a poor copy of a Rembrandt would reveal a beginner artist, a beginner Rembrandt.

The evidence of a Creator is undeniable no matter how you look at it,

Correction: The "evidence of a creator" is non-existent except in the imagination of proponents.

Imagination, .. yes that's where it starts. Father created humans, his children create robots that look and act like humans. The Father says: "Good work son, now what are you going to use it for? Wait, I didn't make your fingers to be gun barrels, what are you doing son?"

[Clownboat]

Schizophrenia
(Consult a doctor if you have a medical concern.)
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to: Tell the difference between what is real and not real; Think clearly; Have normal emotional responses; Act normally in social situations.

Now be honest Clownboat, I am here only to help you OK?

Now please tell me, in the past few weeks there was a holiday here in The USA called Thanksgiving. Now just answer yes or no OK, no need for alarm, this is only a test: Have you seen families sit around a table with a roasted turkey on it, with all the dressings on the table, then all of a sudden before they take of the food STOP, .. and everyone goes silent, .. then put their hands together, bow their heads, and then one person speaks out to some entity as if it was really there listening or something and says what they call a 'prayer'?

If you did, how did you respond to this?

Your talking to a former tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost street evangelizing off country (4 missions trips out of country alone) Christian. We prayed before every meal. For Thanksgiving specifically this year, such a prayer like always took place.

I didn't respond to it. I expected it. My parents are still believers and still pray before every meal. I don't understand why you are asking.

1. What did you think of this abnormal social behavior? When/if they told you they were thanking some Spirit God, did you tell them that there was no one really there, that they were failing to recognize what is real?

Of course not. My parents don't debate on a site like this with me so I try my best to let them be except when I notice them causing harm to others.

You need to get on the same page though. A claim that demons are real, that they have been seen and heard is not similar to someone praying to a god concept. Not even close Arian. If at Thanksgiving my mother claimed to see/hear demons, I would have been concerned and would have encourage her to seek mental health.

Don't mistake praying to a god concept with actual claims of seeing/hearing demons. Anyone can pray to a god concept, but personally, the only people I witness having seen/heard actual demons are people with mental health issues.

Thus the reason I asked for clarification from you.
Again, I would not be surprised to find out a dentist works on teeth, or that a lawyer practices law, or that someone dealing with schizophrenia has seen/heard demons (along with other claims of course).

2. Did you sneak in Lithium powder or drops, or whatever into their eggnog to help them cope, or help them tell reality from delusion?

No. I don't have a personal stash of Lithium nor do I think it would stop them from saying a prayer to a god concept before meals.

Do you see this often, .. you know, people, entire families of apes praying to no-one-there, talking to him/them?

Since I left the church, I see this much less often.

Do you sometimes envision billions of evolving human apes doing this on daily bases?

No, seems like a silly waste of time to me.

Are you sure they are talking to no one?

As sure as I can be.

Have you used Microwave background Radiation cameras to see maybe there is someone or something there that you just cannot see?

Please explain how a Microwave background Radiation camera works and explain how it could detect a god concept. Or... please try to stay on track.

According to Clownboat, Praying out loud, dreaming and telling people about it, taking LSD and telling their friends about the trip, seeing UFO's like I described the meteor-like smoke flying between me and a co-worker and actually telling people about the experience, or if someone claims that a man told him in a dream; "You would go even beyond what I say" is considered;

Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfri�niə/) is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences.

You are incorrect. But why start trying to be right now. Please retract these claims about me or evidence how they are accurate.

"WOW, .. Dude! Now that acid trip was awesome! Man, .. I seen some psychedelic shit (generic shit, no smell to it) I tell you! Man, .. after 12 hours and I'm still trippin'!!!"

It's stuff like this that makes me concerned for your mental health. Why did you take the time to type this up?

Clownboat's diagnosis: Schizophrenia
Treatment: Immediate medical help, straightjacket, Lithium in eggnog, .. what else Clownboat? Any other suggestions besides 'not to take any of such persons debates seriously'?

I don't take much of what you say seriously for many reasons, Lithium nor mental health issues are the reason.

Have you seen or heard of scientists, these guys are very educated, yet as they look and analyze fossils (these are rocks with animal imprints in them) to a point they say they see "One species of animals turning into other species of animals"?

Why, just why arian can you not stay on task? Why are you acting as if you are quoting actual scientist? I have my suspicions, but they should probably not be voiced here.

What is your professional, or just general opinion of these Evolutionary Scientists, and what could I as a good citizen do to help stop them from printing book after book of their delusions that are actually having some emotional effect on our population?

What is my profession and my opinion on Evolutionary Scientists? So far of task again. Come back arian, come back...

Suggested dose of Lithium _____ ?
PRN, .. or to be kept heavily medicated 24/7?

No. Just no.
You claimed to see/hear demons. In my experience, the only people that see/hear demons suffer from mental health issues, such as schizophrenia. Thus I asked the question of you. Please show me where I have ever advocated the use of Lithium.

I haven't, yet you cannot seem to stop talking as if I have.
Come back arian... come back.

Also, if Walt Disney was still alive, what dose of Lithium would you suggest could have controlled his delusions from reality? I'm sure you'd agree that the damage he caused with his "talking animals" is practically beyond repair. Children of all ages drag around stuffed animals like mice and ducks and talk to them. They even have to have them in bed next to them! It's too late for Walt, but what dose of Lithium do you suggest for the children? I mean just try to take away Donald or Daffy from them!

Come back arian... come back.

How about (here is a good patient for you) the artist called Picasso, .. now if he was debating with us in the here and now, and sometimes would post some of his paintings here, I'm sure you would find some disturbing problems with the mind of this man just from his paintings correct? May I ask; what dose of Lithium do you suppose would have helped him start painting 'reality' stuff like; pretty flowers, and colorful pyramid shapes, and logical and helpful posters like;
"OBEY"
"Resistance is futile"
"Either you're with us, or against us, and we have cameras and face recognition so we know who you are!"
.. and nice normal things like that? Reality stuff! Your opinion on Walt and Picasso? (I can give you hundreds more like Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Grimm, Darwin, ..)

You're so far off topic now I'm just going to answer your question as if it deserves a response:
CrCl less than 10 mL/min

Thanks.

Seriously? You don't answer my question, you rant about Lithium, Walt Disney and Picasso and you then tell me "thanks".
Uh.... You're welcome.

[arian]

No kidding?

We create, so the more complex things that we can't yet create, a Creator must have created it is non sequitur?

Correct.

So if I say: "There were 20 people in the crowd, and all the 20 in the crowd were walking!" but this wouldn't necessarily mean that "Everyone in the crowd was walking" ??

My implication to a Creator makes perfect sense, resolves the infinite regress problem.

And insert in its place, the first cause problem.

Not if you would understand the difference between the brain and the mind. Or the difference between the Infinite and the finite. There is no 'first cause' problem in "I Am Who I Am". But there are all kinds of problems in "a speck of quantum whatever residing in nothing suddenly expanding creating space for itself to expand away from, not into"

Why you ask?

They say: "Because, just because. There is no reason, plan, or will of anyone."

Non Sequitur [definition cropped]
Your statement:

'Complexity does not imply design. "It is complex therefore someone must have made it," is a non sequitur fallacy.'

is a perfect example in where the use of 'non-sequitur' is actually non sequitur.

What a weird thing to say, you like having sand in your home?

I live in Arizona, it gets windy and we have sand storms. We open the door and we get sand in our home. No, I don't like it, but that's part of living in Arizona.
We have sand,
we have wind,
we get sand storms
which gets sand in our living room.

I could also bring sand into the living room myself, so yes sand can get in my living room in many ways, but not if there wasn't sand in the universe. And by observing the world around me, sand does not pop out from nothing and evolve into many sands, neither do rocks, planets, galaxies nor man evolve from nothing by itself creating itself. There had to be a Creator, a designer for us to have sandstorms on earth.
I know you may say "sandstorms doesn't mean a creator", but I say to have sand, wind, earth etc, you have to have a Creator, unless you want to believe that a quantum speck of whatever is the creator of the quantum speck of whatever?

Lets talk about infinite regress and first cause, you'll se my view has no paradoxes, it is complete, it is absolute.

Designed objects generally are complex. Life is complex. Therefore, Life must have been designed!

It just sounds right because it's logical, it is what we get from scientific observation, from observing the world around us. Things just don't appear out of nowhere and inflate into a zebra, or a dog, or a human, if they did, then there is your proof. But since we design, the first thing in a real scientists mind when looking at complex organisms is that they must have been designed and created.

When we look at a car zoom past us on the road, we could say: "That car past us because of the engine driving it. It turns the gears in the transmission, then through the rear axle which in turn spins the wheels and the car runs, and because we now know and understand this, we no longer need a Creator of the car!"

Now religion may say that 'Gremlins' drive the car, like they say Zeus throws the lightning on the earth, and Thor causes the thunder.

By understanding why lightning strikes, does not eliminate the need of a Creator, just as understanding how a car operates does not eliminate a designer.

Our mind is infinite and eternal and we can design ideas, and come up with materials that don't even exist yet, like 'kryptonite' for instance, and it can kill Superman.

Explanation: As cool as the idea of designed life might sound or not, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. The fact that designed objects generally are complex, doesn't mean all complex things are designed.

Then why the big buck$$ in the "Blue-Brain Project"? Why so much effort and work in replicating something that naturally just evolves from nothing, with no plan, no purpose and no Designer?
How could you even say that? And why would it be a 'cool idea'? Any idiot (generic idiot) can see the complex design in biological organisms, even as simple as a single celled bacteria is complex beyond our ability to reproduce.

Have you EVER heard of a slaughterhouse? Or been to a European "Smoked meat and sausage" market?

Of course, but that doesn't tell me why think treating each other with respect and love, is mutually exclusive with treating them like animals? At best that tells me why you would think killing each other is consistent with treating them like animals

Well yes, it's like .. once Evolutionists like Hitler and the other Nazis believed that humans were nothing but animals, they treated them that way. Why, would you like me to compare Holocaust videos with animal slaughterhouse videos to prove my point?

I can love a pig like a pet, but I can kill a pig for slaughter also, it is an animal. Now I could also love my children, but could never kill them, or slaughter them like animals. Now i can understand the difficulty in putting this in proper perspective for someone who believes he and his family are nothing but evolving animals, when the time comes as it did during WWII, or in Rwanda, they could slaughter their own in laws, their own family with the same feeling/emotion as I would a pig for food.

Well I'm not bragging, but taking the car apart piece by piece and taking a screw, analyzing it, and make a rough one out of wood would give the villagers a pretty good idea of a creator/car designer, don't you think?

Of course. That you couldn't do the same with life as you could with a car, is all the more reason to believe life isn't designed, right?

LOL that's funny .. no. That would be extremely difficult to believe, matter of fact I would have to reduce my mind to an animal-like state, and respond from instinct. "Me Grugg, me fix cell phone with my bat, then plant it in ground to get the Family Deal; phone for every member of Groggs family!"

But no matter what you make of the created, it remains the 'created'. Another words people will never make/create the Creator from the created, no matter how many billion year story they make up, or how many gods they create, the created will remain the created.

I wouldn't be so sure. Computers can already design themselves.

Yep, .. as long as no one trips over the power cord. But you still don't see it, the computer will create whatever it is programmed to create, if it's a Jet engine part, then that's what it makes, if another computer, or program, then that. The created creates the created that creates the created, but never ever can the created create the Creator.

But the mind as I have shown IS the Creator. We don't need to dig up the ground, cut trees, or make iron to hammer to create things out of, in the mind we can create anything, .. even from materials not yet seen or even heard of?

But there are as many minds as there are people. The collection of minds is the creator? Or lots of creators?

Yes, you got it, there are as many minds as there are people, right? But actually it is from One Mind, a little bit of the Spirit of God goes a long way, .. well actually it goes eternally.

God placed a little bit of His mind/Spirit into the body (made of dust)Adam, and now Adam becomes a living soul. An individual god with his very own 'free will' like His Father God the Eternal Spirit.

Because Gods Spirit is Eternal, it can supply trillions of souls starting from Adam without diminishing even a tiny bit. This is why I wanted to move on, to reveal the wonders of God, and how fortunate we are for God coming up with the idea to create children for Himself.

Now since God is ONE, the spirit within us is of God and IS God, yet that particular bit is an individual, with a separate limited physical body. When that spirit leaves the body, it goes right back to God from where it was taken. But what happens to that individual then? The body returns to dust, and the spirit of that man goes back to God, so then where am I now?

We have actually reached an age where we can clearly answer this, which is, after our death, we are like a 'memory sticks, or chips' just as the Blue Brain Project is hoping to create. The only problem here is that they are trying to capture/create/program the persons memory that has been stored in the brain, not the actual free-will being that has become 'Bust Nak'. You see that part (memory stick) God retains as you, within Himself, .. within the "I Am", and when the time comes, He will plug (just sayin') this 'memory-stick' back into a New Body, one that doesn't die, downloads, or actually 'transfers' you/info into that New Body.

The evidence of a Creator is undeniable no matter how you look at it, but looking at it from a scientific point of view is the most accurate, actually the way I see it and understand it, it is the only way. If we make up un-evidenced scientific fairytales, or gods from religion, you'll end up with a finite/created god/gods, not The Infinite, Eternal Creator God.

So much for undeniable.

Yes, and that is free will. You can even deny you are a human and believe you are just another evolving animal, or a bird, a plane, or that you are superman.

[arian]

Schizophrenia
(Consult a doctor if you have a medical concern.)
Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it hard to: Tell the difference between what is real and not real; Think clearly; Have normal emotional responses; Act normally in social situations.

Now be honest Clownboat, I am here only to help you OK?

Now please tell me, in the past few weeks there was a holiday here in The USA called Thanksgiving. Now just answer yes or no OK, no need for alarm, this is only a test: Have you seen families sit around a table with a roasted turkey on it, with all the dressings on the table, then all of a sudden before they take of the food STOP, .. and everyone goes silent, .. then put their hands together, bow their heads, and then one person speaks out to some entity as if it was really there listening or something and says what they call a 'prayer'?

If you did, how did you respond to this?

Your talking to a former tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost street evangelizing off country (4 missions trips out of country alone) Christian. We prayed before every meal. For Thanksgiving specifically this year, such a prayer like always took place.

I didn't respond to it. I expected it. My parents are still believers and still pray before every meal. I don't understand why you are asking.

OK, great, so I'm talking to a former tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost street evangelizing man, and may I ask how did you overcome these addictions? Especially the lounge talking and drunk in the holy Ghost part, I heard of many who have taken their lives because these spirits (which I understand from the Bible as demons) they gave themselves up to in a drunk total abandon fashion ordered them to.
How many years of therapy, or how much Lithium were you prescribed to repair the brain damage?

1. What did you think of this abnormal social behavior? When/if they told you they were thanking some Spirit God, did you tell them that there was no one really there, that they were failing to recognize what is real?

Of course not. My parents don't debate on a site like this with me so I try my best to let them be except when I notice them causing harm to others.

Harm to others, like you did when you went out on the streets in a drunk stupor led by divining spirits. Yes, this is what I am asking, how did you get rid of these spirits in your head? Was it through a series of exorcisms, drug therapy, psycho therapy, mental hospitalization, .. what?
Please tell me you got some help, because I have seen what calling upon these spirits can do to people. Actually I can even show you actual videos taken of entire congregations under the spell, it is truly frightening! Jim Jones and other holy-rollers are also good examples of the long lasting and often fatal consequences of this mental illness unless you get help!

You need to get on the same page though. A claim that demons are real, that they have been seen and heard is not similar to someone praying to a god concept. Not even close Arian. If at Thanksgiving my mother claimed to see/hear demons, I would have been concerned and would have encourage her to seek mental health.

On the same page? So jumping up and down with raised arms speaking gibberish, sometimes for a long time non-stop, running up and down the isles of the church, house or on the streets praying to a god-concept is OK with you? How do you know you were not calling on demons Clownboat?

Here, please tell me who you and your parents prayed to? Was it some divine beings in the supernatural realm? If so, then I really have to warn you that those beings were demons. It's right there in the Bible, I have shown this many times, and they are real. They enter and take over your mind, and unless you get rid of them, they will remain to haunt you rest of your life.

The signs are, .. for people who are possessed (or mentally ill, you can pick whatever you want to call it) that they approach people telling them they are sick, and then pretending to cast the demons out of them, or try to convince people that they can heal them. They sometimes suggest the person take powerful meds, and even to the point of giving them cyanide, or other poisons which will "free them".

Don't mistake praying to a god concept with actual claims of seeing/hearing demons. Anyone can pray to a god concept, but personally, the only people I witness having seen/heard actual demons are people with mental health issues.

Like I said Clownboat, you can call it what you like, but demon possession is real. These possessed people believe they are praying to a god-concept, but in reality they are being led by Satan, these demons that they have abandoned their reasoning to. Now I know they are telling you that they are not real, that everyone else is possessed instead of you and all kinds of lies, but these spirits will not leave on their own, they only make people believe they did once they see that the person has denied God all together. They can change character, and go along with you as long as you keep denying your Creator. And I have read some of the things you said against God, the Bible and especially Jesus Christ, and I'm afraid my friend that you are being lied to.

You see I never seen Angels with wings and bright white dresses, with a halo around their heads, or heard any of them talk to me. I seen a meteor like UFO with my co worker pass between us, and it didn't speak, just flew by us several times. It was years before I figured out that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm.
I have never prayed in strange tongues, men did help me when I was young up till I was 12 years old and saved me from all kinds of danger. I did notice that they always just seemed to disappear, but not as I was looking at them. They would take me to safety, or tell me what to do to get to safety.

Now I know that they'll be telling you not to believe me, and to fight to the end, twist the truth if you have to, as long as you can somehow discredit what I say, but i promise i will pry for you and your family before something really bad happens to them. They seem like very nice people, sincere in what they believe in, but I'm telling you, you should tell them to look in the Bible and if they pray to divine beings and speak divinations, they are worshiping demons.

Don't be too arrogant my friend, there is no lasting reward in fighting against the truth.

Thus the reason I asked for clarification from you.
Again, I would not be surprised to find out a dentist works on teeth, or that a lawyer practices law, or that someone dealing with schizophrenia has seen/heard demons (along with other claims of course).

This may be a surprise to you but I have seen lawyers and dentists jump up and down and run babbling in a drunk-like stupor in this one Church of Christ I went to for a while. There were mechanics, doctors, nurses, rich and poor, big ones little ones, black ones and even brown ones, they all gave themselves up to these divining spirits, some even screaming, shaking, .. man, after this one Sundays act, me and my younger brother quit going there, we felt it just wasn't safe there anymore. Even though after the takeover they all seemed to have returned to normal nice people.

2. Did you sneak in Lithium powder or drops, or whatever into their eggnog to help them cope, or help them tell reality from delusion?

No. I don't have a personal stash of Lithium nor do I think it would stop them from saying a prayer to a god concept before meals.

So you are OK with your family talking to people who are not really there? I don't get it?

Do you see this often, .. you know, people, entire families of apes praying to no-one-there, talking to him/them?

Since I left the church, I see this much less often.

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay? We have a country full of them, and you my friend is a minority. An entire country of serious mental ill people, off their drugs and here you are the few, the proud, the one who denies the whole thing, an atheist. Do you sometimes feel like your in the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"?

Do you sometimes envision billions of evolving human apes doing this on daily bases?

No, seems like a silly waste of time to me.

So trying to convince them that they are animals, who belong in the ape family doesn't help either? I mean you don't see animals praying to some entity that is not there right. You'd think that convincing them of Evolution would heal this mental illness right?

Are you sure they are talking to no one?

As sure as I can be.

Have you used Microwave background Radiation cameras to see maybe there is someone or something there that you just cannot see?

Please explain how a Microwave background Radiation camera works and explain how it could detect a god concept. Or... please try to stay on track.

They claim that this Microwave background Radiation camera can look billions of years into the past, and has detected the remaining presence of the Creator, well whatever remained of the Creator Big-bang, so maybe as people are praying, it could detect the Creator which would conclude that they are not really crazy, or suffering from serious schizophrenic delusions?

I mean do you think it's a healthy idea to just let your parents confuse reality like that? That's why I'm asking if you tried at least to prove to yourself that no one is really there, then if you are convinced that there is no one there, then the next best thing is to commit them to some institution, or make them take their meds, you know, like you are hinting on committing me yet you never even met me in public. Have you ever seen me with raised arms running around speaking in some frightening gibberish language which I claim is speaking to some divine beings in the supernatural realm? I am speaking science here revealing our Creator, yet something inside your head is telling you to get me on some serious brain damage-drugs.

According to Clownboat, Praying out loud, dreaming and telling people about it, taking LSD and telling their friends about the trip, seeing UFO's like I described the meteor-like smoke flying between me and a co-worker and actually telling people about the experience, or if someone claims that a man told him in a dream; "You would go even beyond what I say" is considered;

Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfri�niə/) is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences.

You are incorrect. But why start trying to be right now. Please retract these claims about me or evidence how they are accurate.

You suggested schizophrenia, and if i was taking Lithium to cure my mental illness that you diagnosed were from me mentioning things I just listed above.

"WOW, .. Dude! Now that acid trip was awesome! Man, .. I seen some psychedelic shit (generic shit, no smell to it) I tell you! Man, .. after 12 hours and I'm still trippin'!!!"

It's stuff like this that makes me concerned for your mental health. Why did you take the time to type this up?

Please tell me what differences do you see between my scientific explanation of the meteor-like smoke UFO I've seen with my own eyes and if I was detailing you on my last acid trip?

Clownboat's diagnosis: Schizophrenia
Treatment: Immediate medical help, straightjacket, Lithium in eggnog, .. what else Clownboat? Any other suggestions besides 'not to take any of such persons debates seriously'?

I don't take much of what you say seriously for many reasons, Lithium nor mental health issues are the reason.

Yet you suggested these to me!?

Have you seen or heard of scientists, these guys are very educated, yet as they look and analyze fossils (these are rocks with animal imprints in them) to a point they say they see "One species of animals turning into other species of animals"?

Why, just why arian can you not stay on task? Why are you acting as if you are quoting actual scientist? I have my suspicions, but they should probably not be voiced here.

I am showing you how easily I could diagnose Big bang and Evolutionary scientist with the same delusional diagnosis you diagnosed me with.

What is your professional, or just general opinion of these Evolutionary Scientists, and what could I as a good citizen do to help stop them from printing book after book of their delusions that are actually having some emotional effect on our population?

What is my profession and my opinion on Evolutionary Scientists? So far of task again. Come back arian, come back...

"or just general opinion" then?

Suggested dose of Lithium _____ ?
PRN, .. or to be kept heavily medicated 24/7?

No. Just no.
You claimed to see/hear demons. In my experience, the only people that see/hear demons suffer from mental health issues, such as schizophrenia. Thus I asked the question of you. Please show me where I have ever advocated the use of Lithium.

I haven't, yet you cannot seem to stop talking as if I have.
Come back arian... come back.

arian claims to have seen a meteor-like smoke zoom past him and disappear, and says it was a demon that attacked him.

you said: "In my experience, the only people that see/hear demons suffer from mental health issues, such as schizophrenia." and also asked if i was taking Lithium or not?

Also, if Walt Disney was still alive, what dose of Lithium would you suggest could have controlled his delusions from reality? I'm sure you'd agree that the damage he caused with his "talking animals" is practically beyond repair. Children of all ages drag around stuffed animals like mice and ducks and talk to them. They even have to have them in bed next to them! It's too late for Walt, but what dose of Lithium do you suggest for the children? I mean just try to take away Donald or Daffy from them!

Come back arian... come back.

All of a sudden when we consider Walt Disney the Biblical claim of "talking donkey" is no longer that far fetched is it? Maybe not even schizophrenic?

How about (here is a good patient for you) the artist called Picasso, .. now if he was debating with us in the here and now, and sometimes would post some of his paintings here, I'm sure you would find some disturbing problems with the mind of this man just from his paintings correct? May I ask; what dose of Lithium do you suppose would have helped him start painting 'reality' stuff like; pretty flowers, and colorful pyramid shapes, and logical and helpful posters like;
"OBEY"
"Resistance is futile"
"Either you're with us, or against us, and we have cameras and face recognition so we know who you are!"
.. and nice normal things like that? Reality stuff! Your opinion on Walt and Picasso? (I can give you hundreds more like Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Grimm, Darwin, ..)

You're so far off topic now I'm just going to answer your question as if it deserves a response:

CrCl less than 10 mL/min

What? That's it? Have you seen his paintings?

Thanks.

Seriously? You don't answer my question, you rant about Lithium, Walt Disney and Picasso and you then tell me "thanks".
Uh.... You're welcome.

I have been giving examples of my claim, "The Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of The Creator", showing how He IS God, but you keep bringing in mental illness, and suggest Lithium. So unless you guys are spraying Lithium into the air with chem-trails, millions like Disney, Picasso will be left untreated!

But not to worry, the treatment is delivered so thick that people can actually taste it, I can, my entire family can, and I'm sure that even the Illuminated ones like Marshal Applewhite can also. Better get them Nike shoes ready!

[Zzyzx]

.

I seen a meteor like UFO with my co worker pass between us, and it didn't speak, just flew by us several times. It was years before I figured out that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm.

Is this your "evidence" for a claim of seeing "demons?" You saw something that may have been a meteor and years later "FIGURE OUT that it must have been a demon from the supernatural realm."

men did help me when I was young up till I was 12 years old and saved me from all kinds of danger. I did notice that they always just seemed to disappear, but not as I was looking at them. They would take me to safety, or tell me what to do to get to safety.

Were those men "demons" or something else? What did you "figure out" about them?

But you still see people talking to no one there, right? So I guess I'm not the only one with serious mental problems ay?

Some have mental problems, some have vivid imagination, some have been convinced or indoctrinated to believe that invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities influence human lives. It may be difficult to distinguish between those conditions.

Have you ever seen me with raised arms running around speaking in some frightening gibberish language which I claim is speaking to some divine beings in the supernatural realm?

We have not seen you in person but have seen what you write. "Gibberish" is your term but it may apply.

I am speaking science

Perhaps you THINK you are "speaking science" but those of us who know something of science disagree.

here revealing our Creator,

You CLAIM to have "indisputable scientific evidence of a creator" but have produced nothing more than testimonials (similar to the meteor story above).

yet something inside your head is telling you to get me on some serious brain damage-drugs.

That diagnosis should be left to mental health professionals.

Please tell me what differences do you see between my scientific explanation of the meteor-like smoke UFO I've seen with my own eyes and if I was detailing you on my last acid trip?

I see no difference between your totally UN-scientific "explanation" of the meteor story and your last acid trip. There may be a connection.

All of a sudden when we consider Walt Disney the Biblical claim of "talking donkey" is no longer that far fetched is it?

Equating Disney characters with the biblical talking donkey seems appropriate. They are equally far fetched and detached from reality. One difference, however, is that most people beyond childhood realize that Disney characters are imaginary – but often fail to make that distinction with bible characters. Some even insist that they have personally seen "demons."