God's violent ways

[OnceConvinced]

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

[JehovahsWitness]

Does it make an action non-suicidal if a person arranges for others to 'pull the trigger'? Suicide by cop comes to mind -- someone inducing authorities to kill them when they wish to die.

I have already responded to this point. Here is the LINK to this in case you did not see what I wrote.

RESPONSE

Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

[Zzyzx]

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Marco, I think your argument here is, as usual, rhetorically compelling. But I also think it lacks substance.

Opinion noted – and discarded as lacking substance

Yes, Jesus willingly allowed his own death. But to say that accepting his mission makes him suicidal is at least a little misleading.

What was his mission? Would that be ‘saving’ those who worship him from punishment for not worshiping?

In common parlance a suicide is a purely destructive, specifically self-destructive, act. It usually is committed to escape a present condition of pain and suffering, and helps no one.

Does “committed to escape a present condition of pain and suffering� apply to the 45,000 suicides per year in the US? How is their motivation determined? Conjecture?

Much to the contrary, in willingly undergoing torture for the benefit of mankind, Jesus decidedly did not attempt to escape suffering, but rather endured indescribable agonies for the stated purpose of saving others.

The described ‘torture’ of Jesus is kindergarten level compared to torture inflicted upon people in the name of Jesus. Consider the Inquisition and the Christianizing of North and South America.

This makes him heroic, not suicidal. Consider a soldier who jumps on a grenade so his comrades nearby can survive. We could simply call that soldier "suicidal" (and some would even call him "stupid"), but we would be seriously misrepresenting who he is and why he did what he did.

The soldier responded to a clear and present real danger. Preacher Jesus supposedly responded to a hypothetical ‘danger’ that has not been shown to be anything more than imaginary.

The soldier does not require worship as a condition for being ‘saved’.

[Zzyzx]

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I have alreadynresponded to This point. Here is the LINK to this invade you did not see what I wrote.

I read what you wrote. It is no more convincing now than it was earlier.

[tam]

Peace to you,

.

Marco, I think your argument here is, as usual, rhetorically compelling. But I also think it lacks substance.

Opinion noted – and discarded as lacking substance

I thought he explained himself well. Giving your life to save others' lives is not suicide. No more than the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save others is suicide.

Yes, Jesus willingly allowed his own death. But to say that accepting his mission makes him suicidal is at least a little misleading.

What was his mission? Would that be ‘saving’ those who worship him from punishment for not worshiping?

No.

In common parlance a suicide is a purely destructive, specifically self-destructive, act. It usually is committed to escape a present condition of pain and suffering, and helps no one.

Does “committed to escape a present condition of pain and suffering� apply to the 45,000 suicides per year in the US? How is their motivation determined? Conjecture?

Truly happy and (emotionally, physically or mentally) healthy people don't tend to want to commit suicide. From personal experience with those who have wanted to commit suicide - or who just wish they would die - they are hoping to end/escape pain of some sort.

Some medications (such as anti-depressants) have increased risk of suicide as a side effect as well.

Much to the contrary, in willingly undergoing torture for the benefit of mankind, Jesus decidedly did not attempt to escape suffering, but rather endured indescribable agonies for the stated purpose of saving others.

The described ‘torture’ of Jesus is kindergarten level compared to torture inflicted upon people in the name of Jesus. Consider the Inquisition and the Christianizing of North and South America.

This makes him heroic, not suicidal. Consider a soldier who jumps on a grenade so his comrades nearby can survive. We could simply call that soldier "suicidal" (and some would even call him "stupid"), but we would be seriously misrepresenting who he is and why he did what he did.

The soldier responded to a clear and present real danger. Preacher Jesus supposedly responded to a hypothetical ‘danger’ that has not been shown to be anything more than imaginary.

This may be a hypothetical danger to you.

But this was a real danger to Christ.


That puts Him in the 'giving His life to save others' category; and not the 'suicidal' category.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 152 by tam]

In 1963, on a busy Saigon intersection, Thích Quảng �ức set himself on fire.



The fact that he did so to improve the lives of fellow Buddhists does not change the fact that he committed suicide.


Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 152 by tam]

In 1963, on a busy Saigon intersection, Thích Quảng �ức set himself on fire.



The fact that he did so to improve the lives of fellow Buddhists does not change the fact that he committed suicide.


Tcg

So are you suggesting that the soldier who throws himself on a grenade (for example) in order to save lives... that soldier is committing suicide?

[Zzyzx]

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Giving your life to save others' lives is not suicide. No more than the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save others is suicide.

Whose life did Jesus save by ‘giving his life’?

What was his mission? Would that be ‘saving’ those who worship him from punishment for not worshiping?

No.

What was his mission?

Truly happy and (emotionally, physically or mentally) healthy people don't tend to want to commit suicide.

Does this apply to suicide bombers who choose to die for their religious beliefs?

From personal experience with those who have wanted to commit suicide - or who just wish they would die - they are hoping to end/escape pain of some sort.

Do you have personal experience with 45,000 people per year who commit suicide? Do you know their mental / emotional / physical condition?

Some medications (such as anti-depressants) have increased risk of suicide as a side effect as well.

Alcohol and various recreational drugs may have similar effect. So what?

This may be a hypothetical danger to you.

What, exactly, was the danger?

But this was a real danger to Christ.

Whose life was supposedly in danger?

That puts Him in the 'giving His life to save others' category; and not the 'suicidal' category.

Whose life was he supposedly saving?

[tam]

Peace to you,

.

Giving your life to save others' lives is not suicide. No more than the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save others is suicide.

Whose life did Jesus save by ‘giving his life’?

The lives of many: Israel (all Israel is saved); His Bride (both the men and the women who are Christian; who belong to and believe in Him); the sheep from the sheep and the goats parable (non-believers who did good to Him unknowingly, by doing good to those who belong to Him; people of the nations who naturally do the requirements of the law of love).

What was his mission? Would that be ‘saving’ those who worship him from punishment for not worshiping?

No.

What was his mission?

To give His life as a ransom for many.

To bear witness to the truth; teach the truth; reveal God as God truly is.

To call His sheep to Him.

Truly happy and (emotionally, physically or mentally) healthy people don't tend to want to commit suicide.

Does this apply to suicide bombers who choose to die for their religious beliefs?

I do not like to make blanket statements - how could I know? I am sure it applies to at least some of them. That being said, suicide bombers do not just take their own lives; they also take the lives of others.

From personal experience with those who have wanted to commit suicide - or who just wish they would die - they are hoping to end/escape pain of some sort.

Do you have personal experience with 45,000 people per year who commit suicide? Do you know their mental / emotional / physical condition?

I did not say I have personal experience with 45 000 people per year who commit suicide. But because I have personal experience with some, I have researched it. Here, I will post the first thing up on my google of why people commit suicide:

Every suicide, like every person, is different. Many are sparked by intense feelings of anger, despair, hopelessness, or panic. Things that can put an individual at a higher risk for suicide in the short term include:

an episode of depression, psychosis, or anxiety
a significant loss, such as the death of a partner or the loss of a job
a personal crisis or life stress, especially one that increases a sense of isolation or leads to a loss of self-esteem, such as a breakup or divorce
loss of social support, for example, because of a move or when a close friend relocates
an illness or medication that triggers a change in mood
exposure to the suicidal behaviors of others, such as friends, peers, or celebrities.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/sui ... 1209245331

Here is the second:

In 2010, over 38,000 Americans committed suicide, making it the tenth leading cause of death. Depression is the major underlying cause of suicide.

A suicide attempt is an indication something is gravely wrong in a person’s life. Suicide is a desperate attempt to escape unbearable suffering.

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/to ... ide-1-4134

Some medications (such as anti-depressants) have increased risk of suicide as a side effect as well.

Alcohol and various recreational drugs may have similar effect. So what?

So I was just adding to the list of what I know can be a cause of suicide.

This may be a hypothetical danger to you.

What, exactly, was the danger?

Death (eternal death).

But this was a real danger to Christ.

Whose life was supposedly in danger?

All life.

That puts Him in the 'giving His life to save others' category; and not the 'suicidal' category.

Whose life was he supposedly saving?

Already answered from the first question above.


Peace again to you!

[marco]

Yes, Jesus willingly allowed his own death. But to say that accepting his mission makes him suicidal is at least a little misleading. In common parlance a suicide is a purely destructive, specifically self-destructive, act. It usually is committed to escape a present condition of pain and suffering, and helps no one.

Much to the contrary, in willingly undergoing torture for the benefit of mankind, Jesus decidedly did not attempt to escape suffering, but rather endured indescribable agonies for the stated purpose of saving others. This makes him heroic, not suicidal. Consider a soldier who jumps on a grenade so his comrades nearby can survive. We could simply call that soldier "suicidal" (and some would even call him "stupid"), but we would be seriously misrepresenting who he is and why he did what he did.

This would be a commendable defence were the people whom Christ saved as obvious as those spared the exploding grenade. To circumvent the charge of deliberately provoking people into killing him we have to accept that Christ willingly endured his torment in order to save others. In the grenade case this is clear; in Christ's case it involves a picture in the man's head which is anything but clear. There are no obvious groups of "saved people" except in religious theory.


Pilate saw him as some artless innocent, convinced of his demi-divinity, a harmless gibberer, no threat to anyone. The crowds saw him as a blasphemer, who placed himself above Abraham. Jesus saw himself as God's favourite, who would die and return to Earth very soon. Regardless of how one views Christ's psychology, his actions were suicidal. He wanted to die and he had to die to serve the voices in his head. His family seem to have recognised this malaise.

We may sympathise that the man was driven to this extreme, but we cannot remove the charge of suicidal act. Its significance has over the centuries been variously interpreted and used. Like Don Pacifico in the Palmerston case, Jesus became an excuse, a foundation for vast structures serving their own ends, not his.

[marco]

What was his mission?

To give His life as a ransom for many.

To bear witness to the truth; teach the truth; reveal God as God truly is.

To call His sheep to Him.

There is no possible way of illustrating the "many" who gained from Christ's actions. It is a theory.

He could have borne witness in a better way by living a few score years more and starting earlier. Many of the ambiguities and doubts could then have been properly answered.

The calling of his sheep to him is a confused metaphor. What aspect of sheep is appropriate: their wool or their mutton? A metaphor has meaning if the constituent parts make sense.


As for suicide bombers taking only their own lives. What about the countless martyrs burned because they followed Christ's example? And did he not lead his apostles to death as well?


Christ should possibly have listened to the voices of those who knew him: his family. They based their views not on a single spectacular speech, but on thirty years of knowing him. Why should we disregard them in this important matter? Do we, two millennia away, know better than Christ's mother? The Christ we have been sold by his biographers and the Church is not the Christ Mary knew.