Major unanswered issues regarding the “literal flood"

[Zzyzx]

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In the Head to Head debate between Osteng and Zzyzx, many issues have been raised to cast doubt upon the flood being literally true. The issues have been addressed briefly, shallowly or not at all – while Osteng insists upon expounding upon a “Flood Model” that purports to be “better” than geology and other natural sciences at explaining Earth features, materials, processes, and present and past life forms.

Since the issues have not been successfully addressed, I choose to open them to general discussion. Perhaps there are theists who can help by providing information to support the “literal flood theory” – or theist members who regard the flood tale as less than literally true and who might have helpful comments -- or non-theists who might care to comment on the issues.

Note: Some of the issues raised below are from applicable genesis passages (quoted by Osteng in post #3 of the Head to Head debate). Others are in response to claims made in favor of the “Flood Model”.

There is ONE condition for discussion in this thread – substantiate, substantiate, substantiate – with real world, credible, verifiable information. Conjecture is NOT welcome in this thread. Saying, ”It could have been possible” is NOT acceptable as substantiation (that is known as a “wuss-out”). “Goddidit” and “because the bible says so” do NOT constitute valid arguments in this thread.

Although twenty issues are presented below, I suggest dealing with ONE topic at a time or one per individual post.

Major unanswered issues that cast doubt upon the “literal flood”.

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark? No rational explanation has been offered for the gathering of animals worldwide (other than a suggestion that a pair of each “kind” of animal swam, flew, walked, crawled, etc from wherever they lived worldwide to get aboard) and no credible explanation was offered for their return to their native habitats after the flood and cruise -- all without transportation

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark? There has been no satisfactory explanation how thousands or millions of animals aboard a boat could be fed and cared for by eight people during a one-year voyage – with 100% survival to insure that species did not become extinct.)

3. How did Noah build the ark? It has not been shown to be feasible for primitive people without known experience to build a boat larger than any wooden boat known to exist (as long as one and a half football fields and as tall as a five story building -- and 1.5 times as long as the longest wooden ships known to have been built) – during an era when tools were probably stone and when the wheel was unknown (yet millions of pounds of wood were supposed cut, transported, hewn and placed).

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood? Survival of freshwater and salt water fish through drastic habitat changes has been addressed only superficially – with the claim that “no provision is necessary because they live in water” and “fish could have been different before the flood”. No evidence has been presented that fish were significantly different a few thousand years ago, that the evolved rapidly into present form and that they then stopped evolving rapidly.

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded? Survival of plants after a year of flooding has been addressed very superficially by citing means of reproduction NOT survival of plants per se – with conjecture to indicate that restoration of the world’s vegetation happened. No reasoning or evidence has supported the contention. Any plant that could not survive and/or reproduce after a year of flooding would be extinct.

6. How could a dove “return with an olive leaf”? Instantaneous sprouting of an olive leaf just in time to be found by a dove has been weakly discussed – and the very un-dovelike behavior (not shown to be characteristic of doves) of plucking a leaf and returning to the ark has not been shown to be anything other than a children’s bible story.

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood? No rational answer has been offered to the question of how fossils were sorted into distinct layers (as known to geologists) if all life forms were wiped out at the same time.

8. Unsupported Claim: “The mountains were lower before the flood” has been claimed with NO indication that the mountains were substantially different a few thousand years ago – and no explanation of how the mountains grew suddenly then slowed or stopped growing. This is diametrically opposed to what is understood by those who study the Earth and nature.

9. Unsupported Claim: “The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained” – (even though people obviously lived on Earth before the flood) is pure conjecture with NO substantiation whatsoever.

10. Unsupported Claim: “The climate was more moderate before the flood” has been claimed. When challenged, the claim was “supported” by citing data relating to climate 50 Million years ago rather than 5 Thousand years ago. AND, the use of such inappropriate and inapplicable data was irrationally “defended” as being representative.

11. Unsupported Claim: “The oceans were much smaller before the flood” is another claim that is made with no substantiation at all. No credible hydrologist, geologist, oceanographer has ever (to my knowledge) proposed that oceans were significantly smaller a few thousand years ago.

12. Unsupported Claim: “The continents were all together before the flood” (unsubstantiated). This represents a distortion of geological studies (based upon actual and accurate measurements) that conclude that continents are moving (on the order of centimeters per year) in relation to one another and have occupied different configurations in the past (millions of years ago – not thousands of years ago).

13. Unsupported Claim: “Water for the flood came from vast caverns ten miles below the Earth’s surface”. NO evidence has been presented that such caverns existed or that they were filled with water. The claim is pure conjecture without even an attempt to provide support or verification.

14. Unsupported Claim: “Water ‘gushing’ out of the [supposed] caverns shoved continents apart”. No evidence is provided to even suggest this is true or that it is possible. The rate of movement apart of North America and Europe would have had to be a minimum of approximately ten miles per day (when actual movement is measured at a few centimeters per year).

15. Unsupported Claim: “Gushing water” formed the mid-oceanic ridges, carved the edges of continents, eroded materials and produced all of the Earth’s sedimentary rocks, ejected material to form comets, (and did not disturb the ark in its journey).

16. Unsupported Claim: “The Earth’s sedimentary rocks were deposited during the flood” – thousands and tens of thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks supposedly deposited in less than a year.

17. Unsupported Claim: “Dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time” (up until the flood). No answer is offered to explain why dinosaur and human fossils are never found in the same rock strata. All studies in anthropology, geology, paleontology, paleobiology, and other natural sciences (based on actual examination of conditions and materials) conclude that dinosaurs were extinct for approximately 65 Million years before Humans appeared. (Emotionally disputed by creationists based on scripture only).

18. Unsupported Claim: “Coal was formed rapidly” [during the flood]. This contrasts with the process of coal formation well known to geologists as well as mining engineers (people actually involved with the subject) – a sequence from peat, to lignite, to bituminous, to anthracite – a slow process.

19. No explanation has been provided for the accumulation of thick layers of salt and gypsum among layers of other sedimentary rocks. Both salt and gypsum are “evaporites” – materials deposited when transporting waters evaporate (as in the case of Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats). Evaporites are formed very slowly and NOT by flooding.

20. No explanation has been provided for the presence of limestone – which consists of small, often microscopic, calcium-rich body parts of marine organisms. Deposits of limestone are known to geologists to require warm water and to be a very slow process. Deposits of limestone layers hundreds or thousands of feet thick did NOT occur in a year or in a flood condition.

21. At least twenty separate “miracles” would be required to “explain” the above – since no rational reasons, reasoning, or evidence has been provided to substantiate any of the claims beyond “it could have been possible” (if enough unsupported assumptions are accepted).

22. If “miracles” are invoked to “explain” how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific – it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science. “Goddidit” and “miracles” void any claim that reasoning, knowledge, experience, observation, measurement, validation have formed the basis of ideas, theories, or arguments presented.

[Zzyzx]

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I did state my case, did you miss what I posted? Here is the link to what I wrote, in case you did.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 164#792164

Your 'case' was shot full of holes in 2016. Has it magically gained credibility recently?


Additionally,

It's a common misconception that in the bible God told Noah to assemble "two of every animal"; it neither says that, nor does it say "every species" that word is not mentioned once in scripture. What the bible does say is "kind". What is a biblical "kind"? We don't know exactly but the Genesis account spoke of animals reproducing "according to their kind".

If reproduction within ‘kind’ is to occur that specifies species.

Consulting biology (the science that studies such things and develops the taxonomic classification system):

In biology, a species is the basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank of an organism, as well as a unit of biodiversity. A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes or mating types can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

Perhaps such things are not taught or considered in Sunday school?

[Tcg]

How did Noah build the ark?

• The same way the ancient "primitive people without known experience" built the pyramids. Note the ark was not of a particularly difficult design it was essentially just a large rectangle box. It was indeed colossal in size but given enough time, manpower and materials, there is no reason to deem it humanly impossible.

The pyramids were/are static objects built of stone. What stone working skills would apply to building a sea worthy vessel?

A large rectangle box would be acceptable as a static barn, not as a sea going vessel. Designing such a vessel would take great knowledge and skill especially considering it would have to remain afloat in the most cataclysmic storm of all time.

Skills used to build pyramids would be of no help in such an endeavor.


Tcg

[Willum]

[Replying to post 151 by Tcg]

Especially since modern shipwrights don’t build vessels of wood like this because it is impossible.

[Zzyzx]

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The ark of biblical tale was supposedly 450 feet long (300 cubits)

The length of the longest wooden ship known to have built was the Wyoming, also 450 feet (but only 350 feet measured on deck); however, it was built with steel reinforcement. Even then:

This ship had a tendency to flex in heavy seas, causing the planks to twist and buckle due to their extreme length despite being fitted with metal bracing. Water was evacuated nearly constantly by steam pumps. It foundered in heavy seas with loss of all hands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... oden_ships

Since there were no steam pumps in that era, perhaps there were a lot of angels bailing constantly? That is no more unreasonable than a 500 year-old man with no known shipbuilding experience taking 100 years to build the ark according to tales.

Yup, sounds very believable (if I was naive and gullible)

[JehovahsWitness]

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It's a common misconception that in the bible God told Noah to assemble "two of every animal"; it neither says that, nor does it say "every species" that word is not mentioned once in scripture. What the bible does say is "kind". What is a biblical "kind"? We don't know exactly but the Genesis account spoke of animals reproducing "according to their kind".

If reproduction within ‘kind’ is to occur that specifies species.

As I said the bible doesn't explain the parameters of a biblical kind, thus the term may well cover more than the modern classification of a species*, we just don't know. What we do know is only two pairs of unclean animals from each group representative was as taken in the ark, and that according to that classification, there was sufficient room on the ark.

* If scientists are declaring the emergence of a new "species" of finch, then evidently sterility does not mark the limit of modern day classification
https://www.sciencealert.com/darwin-s-f ... -galapagos

[Tcg]

What we do know is only two pairs of of each group representative was as taken in the ark, and that according to that classification, there was sufficient room on the ark.

Not according to the fable:

• Genesis 7:2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,

Of course the room needed to house the animals pales in comparison to the room needed to store food for seven pairs of every kind of clean animal and one pair of every kind of unclean animal for a year long stay.


Tcg

[benchwarmer]

What we do know is only two pairs of of each group representative was as taken in the ark, and that according to that classification, there was sufficient room on the ark.

Not according to the fable:

• Genesis 7:2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,

Of course the room needed to house the animals pales in comparison to the room needed to store food for seven pairs of every kind of clean animal and one pair of every kind of unclean animal for a year long stay.


Tcg

Given that many animals eat other animals, perhaps the room issue was solved after a few days?

Of course the entire tale is ludicrous. If God wanted to cleanse the Earth of sinful life, there was no need for all this ridiculous ark building and year long sea voyage. Instead of wasting his god magic on creating water from nowhere to flood the planet, just instantly kill everything considered sinful and call it a day. God instantly kills elsewhere in scripture, did he forget how to do it?

This is what happens when man dreams up the actions of gods. They end up coming out full of holes and filled with nonsense.

[sorrento]

[Replying to post 149 by Revelations won]

Revelations won, you said, "I find it amusing to see the many speculations of man trying to explain the things of the great creator....."


You may be amused at what you say is man trying to explain the things of the "great creator". Well, I'm not going to ask you to try and explain the things of the "great creator", I would simply ask you if you can explain how the South American sloth could have possibly made it to the ark? It is a tree-dwelling animal and if you open the link you will see that it certainly does not move at the speed of light when it takes to the ground.
How a sloth could have possibly made it to the ark could be asked about many other animals but the sloth will do for now, and who knows I might just find your explanation if you have one to be amusing so long as it's not goddidit. Goddidit isn't funny any more.

[Revelations won]

I guess I have been slothful and lacking due diligence in finding an answer to your question....That .answer is not on my urgent radar at this time, but if this really is of deep import to you, then James 1:5 might be a place to start.?

Hmmm I wonder if the sloth lived in a tree near the Ark construction site?

[Zzyzx]

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I guess I have been slothful and lacking due diligence in finding an answer to your question....That .answer is not on my urgent radar at this time, but if this really is of deep import to you, then James 1:5 might be a place to start.?

Hmmm I wonder if the sloth lived in a tree near the Ark construction site?

Cute. However, it might be prudent to consult an Encyclopedia rather than the Bible or 'asking God' (as James 1:5 suggests) when attempting to 'explain' the irrational.

Sloths do not live in the Middle East, or the Mediterranean area, or Africa, or Asia. they are inhabitants of South and Central America. They are not known to be ocean swimmers.

Perhaps some fervent Apologist could 'ask God' how sloths got from South America to the ark (wherever that is supposed to have been).

Better yet, why not admit that the flood tale is a myth?