The Rise of Christianity Challenge!

[achilles12604]

Non-theists argue against almost every topic brought up by apologists. Many times I have put forth that analyzing a single piece of evidence is not an accurate way to critique historical analysis because evidence often will corroborate with other pieces of evidence and then together they make a strong case where-as separately they are weaker.

I was recently thinking about Dan Barker's Easter Challenge (which I did take by the way). I was applying my thoughts to his challenge and realized he was asking theists to analyze history much in the same way as I ask the non-theists to do. So I came up with an idea. Here is the Achilles12604 Rise of Christianity Challenge.

Come up with a logical analysis for the causation of Christianity. You are all well aware of the position of the Christian apologist. We feel that our analysis of the evidence has led us, using Occams Razor, to the simplest and most logical conclusion. You do not, so is it your turn to explain to us how Christianity began without omitting a single detail.

You must account for at least the following and anything else which I have inadvertently forgotten. . .

1) The Gospels being written by at least the following dates
Mark 65-70 CE
Matthew 70-80 CE
Luke 80-85 CE

2) The letters of Paul and his writings on the subjects, specifically the parts where he refers to Jesus as a human, any of Jesus actions, and beliefs of himself and those he speaks about.

3) The writings of Josephus

4) The Historical account presented in the Talmud

5) The fact that the geography of the Gospels (especially Luke) is almost exact.

6) The fact that Archeology has not uncovered anything that contradicts a Gospel, or acts, or Pauline letter account.

7) The beliefs of the very first Christians (Nazarenes).

8) The accounts of history such as Caesar’s declaration around 60CE that bodies were never to be taken out of the graves, punishable by death, right near Nazareth.

9) Later archeology and history such as Pliny's letters.

10) The conversion of Paul

11) The conversion of the early Jews, constituting the Council of Jerusalem

12) The Martyrdom of James

13) The conversion of James

14) The martyrdom of the first apostles. ( I Know that there isn't solid evidence supporting these men being martyrs. However explain why the early church fathers would write about the details of their deaths, if something close to that did actually happen.)

Ok that’s all I can think of for now. Each of these points is supported by a document we posses, a consensus of scholars (yes even secular) or in the case of the last point, a logical conclusion. With the possible exception of the last point, these are facts. Now please explain what happened. You may be brief if you wish but the more you leave out, the more holes will be very apparent in your hypothesis about the series of events.

Please present your version of events which accounts for all these things and culminates with the rise of an infant religion which was able to withstand the persecution of both the Roman Empire as well as the Jewish Nation for 300 years before it was accepted into Rome. If Dan Barkers Challenge required every detail of the Easter Story be accounted for, I should demand no less.

[arayhay]

Orthodox Christianity is a hybrid.


was, is and always will be i'm afraid.

[AB]

Cathar makes perfect sense. What is believed about religion changes over time, What religions believes changes over time.

Regarding "religion" this may be true and probably is. But this has nothing to do with the Gospel of the good news.

[AB]

As for Jesus coming back.. I will discuss that with him when he comes back. You see, according to my beliefs, we have eternity without Jesus as a middle man.
God is not so needy as to insist that you have to recite certain magic words to be acceptable to God.

I was cool with your response, until you put in "God is not so needy" implying that this is what Christianity is saying. Nice try. It isn't at all about God be needy. Why would he??? Please explain.

So, your pattern in debate is to throw false crazy accusations on the contrary opinion.. how tiring.

[McCulloch]

God is not so needy as to insist that you have to recite certain magic words to be acceptable to God.

I was cool with your response, until you put in "God is not so needy" implying that this is what Christianity is saying. Nice try. It isn't at all about God be needy. Why would he??? Please explain.

This is one way of asking why God would desire worship. Does He need a constant chorus of admirers to tell Him just how wonderful He is?

[AB]

God is not so needy as to insist that you have to recite certain magic words to be acceptable to God.

I was cool with your response, until you put in "God is not so needy" implying that this is what Christianity is saying. Nice try. It isn't at all about God be needy. Why would he??? Please explain.

This is one way of asking why God would desire worship. Does He need a constant chorus of admirers to tell Him just how wonderful He is?

No He doesn't! You are building in your own ego and way of thinking to define what God is. It is irrelevant to the true God. HEY PEOPLE, YOU GOT TO GET PAST THIS!.. get out of your little box of thinking.

[Cathar1950]

You guys keep misquoting. I didn't write the following;

As for Jesus coming back.. I will discuss that with him when he comes back. You see, according to my beliefs, we have eternity without Jesus as a middle man.
God is not so needy as to insist that you have to recite certain magic words to be acceptable to God.

Goat did.
See?

Cathar makes perfect sense. What is believed about religion changes over time, What religions believes changes over time.

As for Jesus coming back.. I will discuss that with him when he comes back. You see, according to my beliefs, we have eternity without Jesus as a middle man.
God is not so needy as to insist that you have to recite certain magic words to be acceptable to God.

I hate to take credit.

I think Goat is refering to the idea that all you have to do is confess Jesus is Lord.
Like baptism it looks like magic.
Come to think of it so does the eucharist.
Paul even went so far as to tell people they would die if they did it wrong and many have died because they did so.
Goat is also not calling God needy, he is saying that some Christian views make God look needy and demand magic.

I hope I helped clear things up.

I would like to say I took a beating for Goat but it hardly tickled.

[McCulloch]

This is one way of asking why God would desire worship. Does He need a constant chorus of admirers to tell Him just how wonderful He is?

No He doesn't! You are building in your own ego and way of thinking to define what God is. It is irrelevant to the true God. HEY PEOPLE, YOU GOT TO GET PAST THIS!.. get out of your little box of thinking.

Then maybe His worshipers should stop making these claims:

• The Father God desires worship in the Spirit. The Father God desires that we be the temple of the Holy Spirit, where worship occurs. The Father God is seeking true worshipers.
• In John 4:23, we see that God desires worship. If we are to respond to Him as He wishes, we will bring praise, adoration, and obedience to the One who alone is worthy. The primary purpose of worship is directed toward the object of worship, not the worshipper.
• Worshipping God in the beauty of holiness should be our top priority. God desires worship, He wants to have undivided and unlimited worship of His creation. To worship God should be our greatest concern.
• God desires worship.
• “Worship is communion with God in which believers by grace center their minds attention and hearts affection on the Lord Himself, humbly glorifying God in response to His greatness and His worth.” - Dr. Bruce Leafbladd
• God desires worship: Jn 4:23-26.
• If God desires worship in spirit and truth, then surely all true worshipers must fashion their worship in accord with the truth He has revealed. If worship is something offered to God—and not just a show put on for the benefit of the congregation—then every aspect of it must be pleasing to God and in harmony with His Word.
• We worship because God commanded it, desires it and deserves it. As Jesus said, "the Father is seeking such [that is, true worshippers] to worship Him." (John 4:23).
• God desires worship from His people in spirit and in truth.

[AB]

This is one way of asking why God would desire worship. Does He need a constant chorus of admirers to tell Him just how wonderful He is?

No He doesn't! You are building in your own ego and way of thinking to define what God is. It is irrelevant to the true God. HEY PEOPLE, YOU GOT TO GET PAST THIS!.. get out of your little box of thinking.

Then maybe His worshipers should stop making these claims:

• The Father God desires worship in the Spirit. The Father God desires that we be the temple of the Holy Spirit, where worship occurs. The Father God is seeking true worshipers.
• In John 4:23, we see that God desires worship. If we are to respond to Him as He wishes, we will bring praise, adoration, and obedience to the One who alone is worthy. The primary purpose of worship is directed toward the object of worship, not the worshipper.
• Worshipping God in the beauty of holiness should be our top priority. God desires worship, He wants to have undivided and unlimited worship of His creation. To worship God should be our greatest concern.
• God desires worship.
• “Worship is communion with God in which believers by grace center their minds attention and hearts affection on the Lord Himself, humbly glorifying God in response to His greatness and His worth.” - Dr. Bruce Leafbladd
• God desires worship: Jn 4:23-26.
• If God desires worship in spirit and truth, then surely all true worshipers must fashion their worship in accord with the truth He has revealed. If worship is something offered to God—and not just a show put on for the benefit of the congregation—then every aspect of it must be pleasing to God and in harmony with His Word.
• We worship because God commanded it, desires it and deserves it. As Jesus said, "the Father is seeking such [that is, true worshippers] to worship Him." (John 4:23).
• God desires worship from His people in spirit and in truth.

This is all great. Yes Worship Him. HE CREATED US. HE KNOWS US MORE THAN ANYTING. HE CREATED THE WORLD WE LIVE. AND HE CAN REMOVE IT.

I bet you take the word worship and make it a bad thing because of you ego.

BUT THE PLAIN STRATE FACT IS : ... nevermind you will debate it away in your life.

[Goat]

Cathar makes perfect sense. What is believed about religion changes over time, What religions believes changes over time.

Regarding "religion" this may be true and probably is. But this has nothing to do with the Gospel of the good news.

But, indeed it does. The 'Gospel of the Good news' has chnaged over time. The interpretation has changed over time.

[AB]

Cathar makes perfect sense. What is believed about religion changes over time, What religions believes changes over time.

Regarding "religion" this may be true and probably is. But this has nothing to do with the Gospel of the good news.

But, indeed it does. The 'Gospel of the Good news' has chnaged over time. The interpretation has changed over time.

God doesn't change brother! Yeah! Jesus is Lord! Everyting is alright! Love you brother!