Non-Circular reasons for believing in the Bible.

[help3434]

I often see people quote Bible verses about scripture when asked why they believe in the Bible. Of course arguing that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true is circular. Are there any non-circular reasons for believing in the Bible?

[Ooberman]

You just admitted your sacred text was a point of debate (concerning the changes), which means there is a "problem" with the man-made part of your religion.
So, it seems to follow that the resolution would include some assertion to look past it and seek god directly in absence of clear direction.

Not 'look past it.' Not 'ignore it.' But do confirm the truths found by going to God personally to confirm and/or understand it.

You have to look past it if you are going to find a resolution. Unless, of course, you expect the conflict (concerning changes in the text) to extend indefinitely.

At some point, you either have to say "yes, there is a conflict and we can't say anything more about it" or look past it and say "this is what Yahweh meant."("I know what God thinks").

BTW, when you say "go to your god directly" do you mean die?

No, actually, I mean 'prayer.'

So god answers you? This sounds so utterly conceited! You here your own thoughts and and think "wow, thats such a great thought, thanks god!"

I wish i was a theist and could claim all my thoughts came from a perfect being.


"Yes, di, god told me to tell you to give me all your money. HEY! Its not me saying it! Its GOD!"

[dianaiad]

So god answers you?

That is the idea behind prayer, yes.

This sounds so utterly conceited! You here your own thoughts and and think "wow, thats such a great thought, thanks god!"

It would be...if they were 'my own thoughts.' However, you are certainly begging the question here, aren't you?

I wish i was a theist and could claim all my thoughts came from a perfect being.

Hyperbole, thy name is frequently Ooberman....

"Yes, di, god told me to tell you to give me all your money. HEY! Its not me saying it! Its GOD!"

When you have something logical to say, I'd like to hear it.

[Donray]

So god answers you?

That is the idea behind prayer, yes.

This sounds so utterly conceited! You here your own thoughts and and think "wow, thats such a great thought, thanks god!"

It would be...if they were 'my own thoughts.' However, you are certainly begging the question here, aren't you?

I wish i was a theist and could claim all my thoughts came from a perfect being.

Hyperbole, thy name is frequently Ooberman....

"Yes, di, god told me to tell you to give me all your money. HEY! Its not me saying it! Its GOD!"

When you have something logical to say, I'd like to hear it.

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God? After all you do so why not others? After all the Pope has said that Atheists also go to haven.

[dianaiad]

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God?

He says he doesn't. I tend to take people's word for such things.

After all you do so why not others? After all the Pope has said that Atheists also go to haven.

I do. Others do. Ooberman says he doesn't. (shrug)

Why shouldn't I believe him?

BTW, I had no idea that the Pope thinks that atheists go to Haven. Interesting. Perhaps that's why the 'troubles' are ubiquitous there.

[McCulloch]

After all the Pope has said that Atheists also go to haven.

The Pope did not quite say the Atheists go to heaven. He is clearly open to the idea that Christ may well redeem even those who are non-believers. But the Catholic Church has issued a clarification, God will still redeem only those who God redeems. As it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." If God wants to save someone, they will be saved.

[scourge99]

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God?

He says he doesn't. I tend to take people's word for such things.

After all you do so why not others? After all the Pope has said that Atheists also go to haven.

I do. Others do. Ooberman says he doesn't. (shrug)

Why shouldn't I believe him?

BTW, I had no idea that the Pope thinks that atheists go to Haven. Interesting. Perhaps that's why the 'troubles' are ubiquitous there.

Actually what the pope said was that atheists can do good (an amazing step forward by the Catholic church). Atheists can go to heaven.... but only if they are saved by Jesus. I. E., for an atheist to go to heaven he needs to become catholic.

Nothing to profound about that. The only interesting part was the pope flat out conceding that atheists aren't all hedonistic baby eaters. But even that is suspicious because I'm sure the only "reason" atheists can do good is because of the influence of Christians, Jesus, holy spirit, blah, blah blah.

freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2013/06/02/vatican-but-seriously-atheists-still-get-tortured-forever/

[Ooberman]

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God?

He says he doesn't. I tend to take people's word for such things.

I've chosen to beleive God does talk to me.

Now what? Now will you give me your money?

Btw, he says your religion is the wrong one. He says you should listen to me.

[dianaiad]

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God?

He says he doesn't. I tend to take people's word for such things.

I've chosen to beleive God does talk to me.

Now what? Now will you give me your money?

Well now, I'm a bit stuck as to a response here. On one post I say that I don't believe you talk to God because you claim you don't. That would indicate, I suppose, that if you ever did decide that God talks to you, that I would believe that, as well....for the same reason: you said so.

Here's the problem: Given the number of times you have said that you do not talk to Him, and the number of times you have mocked my own belief that He does answer prayers (within the last few hours, come to think of it), I hope you will forgive me if I have a few problems with your claim now that He does talk to you. However, I have always been consistent about what to do about this.....

Btw, he says your religion is the wrong one. He says you should listen to me.

About 45 years ago or so I was sitting in the BYU cafeteria, looking at my 'mission call' letter (I was going to be a missionary in England) and a young man I had seen in a couple of my classes asked if he could sit down.

I shrugged and said fine, and we talked a little bit about school, and missions, and such. I could see that he was working up to something...but I wasn't prepared for that 'something." He said..."I have received a revelation. You should not go on this mission. You should marry me, instead. You will help me through school and we will have children."

Now, he wasn't a gargoyle or anything, seemed nice enough (except for that rather strange kick in his gallop). There was a problem, however, and I told him what it was. "That's nice...but God forgot to tell ME."

Needless to say, I did not marry him. I've often wondered, since, if he ever found someone upon whom that line worked....

Never mind...I hope you understand, then, that when you say that God told you to tell me that I should listen to you, my answer is...er...He forgot to tell ME.

And that is, after all, rather the point. Please don't be insulted if I have some reservations about the swiftness of your conversion, y'know?

[Ooberman]

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God?

He says he doesn't. I tend to take people's word for such things.

I've chosen to beleive God does talk to me.

Now what? Now will you give me your money?

Well now, I'm a bit stuck as to a response here. On one post I say that I don't believe you talk to God because you claim you don't. That would indicate, I suppose, that if you ever did decide that God talks to you, that I would believe that, as well....for the same reason: you said so.

Here's the problem: Given the number of times you have said that you do not talk to Him, and the number of times you have mocked my own belief that He does answer prayers (within the last few hours, come to think of it), I hope you will forgive me if I have a few problems with your claim now that He does talk to you. However, I have always been consistent about what to do about this.....

Btw, he says your religion is the wrong one. He says you should listen to me.

About 45 years ago or so I was sitting in the BYU cafeteria, looking at my 'mission call' letter (I was going to be a missionary in England) and a young man I had seen in a couple of my classes asked if he could sit down.

I shrugged and said fine, and we talked a little bit about school, and missions, and such. I could see that he was working up to something...but I wasn't prepared for that 'something." He said..."I have received a revelation. You should not go on this mission. You should marry me, instead. You will help me through school and we will have children."

Now, he wasn't a gargoyle or anything, seemed nice enough (except for that rather strange kick in his gallop). There was a problem, however, and I told him what it was. "That's nice...but God forgot to tell ME."

Needless to say, I did not marry him. I've often wondered, since, if he ever found someone upon whom that line worked....

Never mind...I hope you understand, then, that when you say that God told you to tell me that I should listen to you, my answer is...er...He forgot to tell ME.

And that is, after all, rather the point. Please don't be insulted if I have some reservations about the swiftness of your conversion, y'know?

You have to ask God to talk to you. You have to have faith he exists. I'm sorry you don't believe in God. Why do you hate God? Is it because you want to live your sinful lifestyle? Were you abused as a child? Are you a fool?

PLease, Di, please believe in God and have Faith in Him. Give me your money, have faith and ask God to reveal Himself to you as He has done to me.

My life has gotten so much better since I started believing in God. I have a peace that transcends understanding.

It makes me sad that you don't want to know God. Don't trust me, trust God.

And then give me your money.

[dianaiad]

Tell me why you don't think Ooberman talks with God?

He says he doesn't. I tend to take people's word for such things.

I've chosen to beleive God does talk to me.

Now what? Now will you give me your money?

Well now, I'm a bit stuck as to a response here. On one post I say that I don't believe you talk to God because you claim you don't. That would indicate, I suppose, that if you ever did decide that God talks to you, that I would believe that, as well....for the same reason: you said so.

Here's the problem: Given the number of times you have said that you do not talk to Him, and the number of times you have mocked my own belief that He does answer prayers (within the last few hours, come to think of it), I hope you will forgive me if I have a few problems with your claim now that He does talk to you. However, I have always been consistent about what to do about this.....

Btw, he says your religion is the wrong one. He says you should listen to me.

About 45 years ago or so I was sitting in the BYU cafeteria, looking at my 'mission call' letter (I was going to be a missionary in England) and a young man I had seen in a couple of my classes asked if he could sit down.

I shrugged and said fine, and we talked a little bit about school, and missions, and such. I could see that he was working up to something...but I wasn't prepared for that 'something." He said..."I have received a revelation. You should not go on this mission. You should marry me, instead. You will help me through school and we will have children."

Now, he wasn't a gargoyle or anything, seemed nice enough (except for that rather strange kick in his gallop). There was a problem, however, and I told him what it was. "That's nice...but God forgot to tell ME."

Needless to say, I did not marry him. I've often wondered, since, if he ever found someone upon whom that line worked....

Never mind...I hope you understand, then, that when you say that God told you to tell me that I should listen to you, my answer is...er...He forgot to tell ME.

And that is, after all, rather the point. Please don't be insulted if I have some reservations about the swiftness of your conversion, y'know?

You have to ask God to talk to you. You have to have faith he exists. I'm sorry you don't believe in God. Why do you hate God? Is it because you want to live your sinful lifestyle? Were you abused as a child? Are you a fool?

thank you, ooberman, for making my point for me so well. I appreciate this more than you know!

You did not, after all, tell ME to ask God to find out if He had spoken to you. You simply told me that He had, and then demanded...what...my money? That my beliefs are wrong? That He told you to tell me these things?


THAT is the problem that you are arguing against here, isn't it? Those people who believe the bible without independent verification? Isn't this thread about 'non-circular reasons' for believing? What could possibly be more circular than insisting that I give you my money or whatever) because God just told you to tell me to do so? YOU did not ask me to go to God myself.

But, my friend, if God wants me to give you my money, He won't tell you. He'll tell ME.

And He didn't.

I will say that I did ask Him. Sorta. I asked "Is this man full of baloney?" and I got what I beleive to be a very non-circular response. I'm keeping my money....and my belief system. Thank you for trying.

PLease, Di, please believe in God and have Faith in Him. Give me your money, have faith and ask God to reveal Himself to you as He has done to me.

My life has gotten so much better since I started believing in God. I have a peace that transcends understanding.

It makes me sad that you don't want to know God. Don't trust me, trust God.

And then give me your money.

I do love it when I make a convert. It's especially fun when that convert is arguing my positions in the mistaken idea that he is arguing against them.

BTW, you don't have to have faith that God exists before you ask Him about such things. You just have to figure that if what is being presented is true, THEN any promise made in it will be kept.

For instance, is you happen to be reading something claiming to be scripture, AND it says in there that if you pray about it then you will get an answer, it's reasonable and logical to suppose that it's OK to pray about it, and that if it's 'true,' you'll get an answer.

You know, rather like it's reasonable to figure that if you are handed a business card with a phone number on it that says "call here for the best catering services in town!" It's not unreasonable or illogical to, if one is planning a party, pick up the phone and call the number.

You aren't calling because you believe that the catering company actually exists. You are calling to find out if it does, and keeps the promises made on the card.

Maybe it's out of business. Maybe it's a joke. Perhaps it's the worst catering company in town. Who knows? That's why you make the phone call.

Same thing with God. You don't need to believe in Him before you pray. That's why you are praying; to find out. That 'non-circular reason' for believing.

As for you, Please forgive me...but before I give you my money or change my faith for you, God will have to give me that independent corroboration I've been talking about.

And He hasn't. Sorry.