"I am NOT an animal"

[Zzyzx]

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"I am NOT an animal"

Many who do not appear to have much knowledge of biology seem indignant when learning that H. sapiens are classified as animals (alternatives being plant and virus). I do not recall ever hearing a Non-Theist object. 1) Is there something about religion that causes this?

You see I am NOT an animal, never was and never in a billion years will I evolve to be one, my family tree all the way back to Adam don't have one ape in it.

2) Why be upset, indignant or in denial about a biological / taxonomic classification?

3) Since humans differ from other animals only in degree (some mental and physical characteristics), what is the objection to recognizing that they are animals?

4) Is anything other than religion (and possibly narcissism) involved?


In the quoted statement someone (whose theological position apparently defies description) claims knowledge of his family tree back to Adam – as though that proves the claimant is not an animal. However, if the hypothetical Adam was human (H. sapiens), he (Adam) classifies as an animal.

[Blastcat]

There is no presentation by any Apostle that they knew everything because they didn't. They all saw in part just as we do.

So, why should we take their words as true?

Any "truth values" would seem to be quantifiable by the examinations of claims. The "scriptures" propose some interesting conundrums to engage. Many in fact. And some interesting, simultaneous but opposing truths. It's just a whole lotta fun quite frankly.

Oh.. no doubt it's fun. But I could say the same for comic books full of super-heroes.

They might have been mistaken in parts, wrong in parts, or making things up in parts? Which parts are which?

I think any proposal that is honest has value. Scripture proposes that mankind is evil internally, without fail and without exceptions.

I find that information very valuable to keep in mind. In your view, the Bible presents mankind as evil. Great teaching. Seems to be one sided. People are also very good.

I can say the same for comic-books. I can find many "truths" within the wonderful imagery. We should never forget the valuable information found therein.

In comic books, people are very evil. And people are very good. Not so one sided as the Bible seems to be. I like the balanced approach of the comic books, because I happen to know quite a few humans. They are MORE than just evil being. I can assure you. I'm sorry if you live in a different part of the world. There ARE some very nasty places in the world.

I'm blessed. I live in a good part of the world where people can and do exhibit properties that I would call "good". Lucky, hey?

Why assume that they had ANY partial truth at all?

Uh, because it's true? I don't need a rocket scientist or a quantum theorist to empirically prove that mankind is evil internally. That to me is one of the most OBVIOUS lessons of humanity that we all "learn" from a very early age.

No, the question was WHY believe any of it is true. SAYING that it's true because it's true is going around in circles and around in circles and going around and around.
Stop the circle please.
My head is spinning.

Remember.. circular thinking bad? .. remember that? NO?..
Circular thinking is bad.
Try to remember.

What I meant was why should we believe that any of the REPUTED things that are portrayed in the Bible actually happened. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Genesis, The Flood.. the Garden of Eden, Tower of Babel, the sermon on the mount, all of it... at least the super-hero stuff.

Why should we take the authors as reliable and not just clever fiction writers?

I know that moral platitudes aren't quite rocket science. Humans can be evil, and humans can be good. WOW.. I'm not stunned by the depth of that statement. Don't need more than a comic book to get that bit of info.

.. maybe they were COMPLETELY mistaken, COMPLETELY wrong, and made things up COMPLETELY.

There is no mistake made in the observations that mankind is internally evil (oh, yeah, and GOOD) and that we are finite. Scripture doesn't leap off the pages of logic and reason in these regards. I think you and I could make the same reasonable conclusions without the scriptures as with them and that we could reasonably conclude these as "present realities" of man in the semi-empirical senses.

Is THAT the truth in the Bible?..
Then who needs any Bible?
I agree with you there. I was, however, talking about the Jesus beliefs.. the rising from the dead, the need for salvation, Heaven and Hell, all of that stuff. Good and evil work themselves out all the time in comic books. As you say, not the moral equivalent of rocket science.

And also, it's quite obvious that your observations might be mistaken for any number of reasons. I deal in REASONS..

I think if you say that humans are ONLY evil, this would be easily disproved. SO if the Bible says that.. it's just wrong. It's wrong about a very important moral fact about humans.

This is NOT in favor of the bible being an accurate description of reality.

Why just assume ANY of it is true?

I would only say that from the opening salvos of these matters, that scripture has MORE interesting inspections to be made from those basic elements. NOT that I think anything is going to work out any differently, regardless. Mankind is still going to contain evil internally and individuals are still going to be finite.

Mankind is going to be evil?
How about mankind is also going to be good?
I think the "truth" that you are talking about here is your interpretation of these books. Sure, we can interpret any book and "get" stuff out of it. I can look at a wall and get inspired by that too.

I am talking about the weird and magical CLAIMS in the Bible, not the moral ideas you can gleam from the stories. Are the stories TRUE.. did the events actually HAPPEN the way they are written?

That's what I'm asking about.. not how you can "GET" something out of the stories.
I know you can "get" something out of the stories.
You have an imagination, so it's not surprising to me that you use it.

But you seem to not comprehend when I question the Bible's veracity and reliability.

When I asked "How can we know that any of is true?" You talk about how you can get a moral lesson in humanity, and forget the trickier bits to verify in any way. And these are REALLY fundamental to most Christians.. that Jesus existed , that a god is in three parts, that Jesus was born of a virgin.. angels , demons, magic healings, walking on water, calming storms, changing water into wine, original sin, defying death, raising all kinds of people from the dead, eternal punishment in lakes of fire for not towing the party line.. you know.. those bits.

How do we know that ANY of that .. magic stuff.. and even the mundane stuff reported in the bible are TRUE in any way?

If PARTS of it are wrong,

You perhaps are missing a point. It's not the parts that are wrong, but the PLAYERS definitely have issues. The basic elements look not much differently than a Taoist twist of these same matters, good and evil intertwined. With a little eye of white in the black and black in the white. Wish I knew how to insert a picture at this site.

Use your words. I'd answer your picture with one of my own, and we BOTH wouldn't understand each other. If I miss one of your points, explain your point better.

What POINT are you making?... the characters in the book have issues. Well, wow. MOST characters in MOST books have issues. Characters in COMIC books have issues. And there are lots of pretty pictures to illustrate these issues in color, and just black and white, if you prefer.

So, if you really need pictures, I'd suggest the good old comic book. Lots of issues, lots of fictional characters, and lots of good and lots of evil. Everything you need for moral instruction.

These matters have been pondered by man from the beginning, long before what we have as "the written Word" today. As has the quest of transcendence been pondered.

ALL the parts of it can be wrong, too. And if it's POSSIBLE that it's all wrong.. or mostly wrong, or kinda wrong and we can't know which parts are true and which parts are wrong..

There is little use in straining against what we are built of.

We aren't built of the Bible. I am talking about how you can know if this book is TRUE or mostly just fictional. I already know all about black and white. good and evil. I got through kindergarten. ( barely, as I failed the "nap" portion of the curriculum, but luckily, excelled in finger paints. )

Kinda begs the question.. WHY believe any of it?.. The believers could be wrong.

Assuredly WRONG. No one is "that right." No one. No material scientist is any MORE right either. We're all on the same ground in these regards.

If someone says that this or that HAPPENED.. that say.. Jesus was nailed to a cross and it DIDN'T happen, yes, we can say that it is WRONG. If someone makes a claim that is false, we can say if it is so. If you tell your bank manager that you should have a million dollars in your bank account, I'm sure he doesn't say ..

"Oh.. You probably do have a million dollars then.. no scientist will be able to verify if you don't. So, here's a million bucks, sorry for the confusion. I forgot that the truth is just so variable in your universe. My bad"

In Buddhism just as in Christianity, a PERFECT PICTURE is invoked to set our "images" by. And in neither case is there A TANGIBLE PICTURE.

There are only images to ponder. And in that there IS change, spare change as it may be.

Does your bank manager agree with you? If so, can you give me his number? I have a million dollars I want to imagine is true. That would be a lot of spare change.

I can paint a picture of a million dollars. I can write about a million dollars in a book. With pictures. That should be enough of a test. Because of Buddhism and Christianity, truth is invoked. So, I'm going to invoke a million bucks into existence on your say so.

MATH TEST?.. invoke an image of a perfect score. Truth is a variable quantity for you.
Your criteria for what constitutes a "TRUTH" is about as weak as can be.
A child of two wouldn't be very impressed.

Do you agree ?

Generally speaking, yes. I don't buy a lot of things nor do I have to believe anything I don't believe or find value in. I do accept proposals of BETTER sights even if they are not had "in the moment."

You don't believe in anything you don't believe in.

Ok. Me too. I don't have to believe in anything I don't believe or find value in either.

I AM asking why I should believe in the Bible .. Because I don't have to. If it's not TRUE and just made UP.. then all of this redemption stuff. this CHRISTIANITY stuff.. is based on falsehoods. I don't believe things that I know are false. EVER.

So, I really need to know why I SHOULD believe this Bible is true. I don't SEE any compelling reason to do so. I thought maybe YOU WERE SAYING YOU DID.

I'm waiting for your reasons.
So far.. your main reason is you can interpret it in ways that you seem to like. I don't like these ways, as they seem very NEGATIVE ways. Your view of humanity, for example.

It's nasty. Humans are evil, you say. Doesn't make me want to go there.

So far, I have to question your criteria for what you consider "BETTER" sights. I think your criteria is extremely weird, subjective, and too low in some cases to matter.

There is more to be had than meets the eye. I do NOT believe that these pieces of s**t we have for political/monetary/judicial systems are all that we can muster OR that the same pieces of worse that passes for christianity are ALL that is there to be had.

Trancendency and CHANGE are far more valuable prospects.

There is more than meets the eye?

What does that have anything to do with the veracity of the Bible? Yes, we can agree that there is more than meets the eye. What about the truth of the Bible?

Transcendence and personal growth or change doesn't address the questionable veracity of the Bible. I don't see how your answer is relevant to the actual question.

Any partial sight should be seen for what it proposes.

Not sure what you mean by this.. perhaps a bit of clarification on your part might help. However, can I take a guess?

Are you talking about internal consistency?.. Because by that criteria, ANY internally self-consistent system is true.

I don't propose that scripture presents that "mankind" is going to get past the realities of our internal construction. And in fact it is the worse aspects of these matters that seem to continually RISE to the surface is it not? What does that transmit to you, personally? What "reality" assessments might we gain from those observations?

You don't propose that scripture presents that mankind wont get past what it is? I'm sorry, but your attempt at CLARIFYING that original point I was asking you about.. confused me more than the original statement.

No, it's not a fact that it is only the worse aspects that seem to you to continually rise to the surface.

It's your OPINION.

PLEASE don't pretend to me that your opinion is a fact. Your opinions are your opinions. If you want to CLAIM that they are facts, you should GIVE PROPER EVIDENCE. I wish people would only write what they can back up. Otherwise, this is like sitting in a bar and listening to .. idle bar talk.

What does your negative view of reality transmit to me personally? It transmits that you have a negative view of reality. That's it. I don't happen to share your negative view of reality. I happen to think otherwise.

I happen to think that I would NOT want to share your negative views.

Christianity in it's finest form is all about AMPLIFICATION, DISRUPTION and PROTEST of these "lesser" but "ruling" internal invisible natures that always spring to the surface to claim their holds, victims and entire societies, if not the "whole world."

Your opinion is .. interesting. But it's just your opinion. I would PREFER if you said so. You too often present your opinions as fact. You might be under the misapprehension that OTHERS just share your opinions. Maybe some people do share your opinions, maybe even some people do so for the same REASONS as you do.

I could not tell if that's the case, because I see no REASONING for your opinions. I just see opinion after opinion after opinion after opinion. You seem to be a never-ending fount of opinions.

But whatever REASON you might have for these opinions are, I have NO idea. Even the truth is relative to you. I see very little in the way of reasoning here for me to grasp or contend with.

We never GET to your reasons.

We certainly have never established how we can KNOW that the Bible is true in any way. We can get inspired by the Bible, I suppose, we can get a school-yard level introduction in morality from the Bible, I gather. But more than that?

Can we know if any of the anecdotes in the Bible are true?
Can we know if any of the supernatural claims in the Bible are true?
You know.. god creates a universe out of a word, Adam comes from dirt, Eve from his rib, a talking snake, ORIGINAL SIN we now have because of some disobedience...

On and on?.. Up to the New Testament?.. A god has to come down to earth, be tortured, rise up, and so on in order to FORGIVE only the few who believe all of this stuff?

Very weird and wonderful story that is.. but is any of it true?

That's what I'm asking. I already know that evil is not good and so forth. I already know that humans aren't perfect at anything, including morality. I learned that by the age of 6. Had all of that figured out. The Bible mumbo-jumbo didn't mean a thing to me back then.

I started paying actual attention to what preachers and priests were trying to tell me later. That's just about the same time as I started to reject their magic claims that they could never prove in any way shape or form.

I know they all wanted to CONVINCE me that their magic god was real.. It took me a few years to get out from under their control. Then I thought for myself. I figured out that magic isn't real. And the Bible book is full of magic stories.

Why should I take any of the Bible book as more than an old version of comic books?
At least nobody pretended to me that the stories in the comic books were TRUE stories.

I can't say that for the magic stories in the Bible.. all SORTS of people try to convince me that the magic stories in the Bible are true.

So, I'm asking. How do we know that any of this magic stuff is real in any way?

How do we REALLY know that Jesus even existed in the first place?

Do we HAVE accurate, incontrovertible evidence of this man/god/magic healer/wise teacher/rabbi/political activist?

Do we have any evidence for Magic/Garden of Eden/Original Sin/Redemption by belief?

And in that direction Christ is active, promising that there are NO SECRETS available nor are there "hiding places." And there are definitely present consequences to be had on both sides of the ledgers.

Yes, anything in our imagination can be active. That's the same as any character in a good comic book. Active imagination can be active.

There are present consequences to be had. Yes, we can use our imagination to imagine two sides to every event. Actually, I can do WAY better than just two sides. I can imagine hundreds of things in my head. No problem using that part of my mind.

The imagination, however is NOT a reliable test for truth. I can imagine any number of things that are FALSE. I don't happen to have a million bucks in my bank account, but I can assure you.. I can IMAGINE that very easily.

I have an active imagination. I don't confuse the imaginary for the real. I haven't had that problem since I've been 5.

If I make up a totally fallacious but internally self-consistent system.. does it accurately reflect REALITY all of a sudden?

Christianity doesn't propose that anyone can make themselves "like" Christ or Christ like. If there is any such making to be had it is certainly not in "our" hands to make.

I have no idea how you think the above statement relates to my question.

Internally self-consistent FICTIONS are all true?

Christianity doesn't propose that we BS ourselves about ourselves, that is for sure.

I have again, no idea how you imagine that you are being relevant to my question. I am talking about the self-consistency of fiction. You reply with how we should not lie to ourselves. I agree, we should not lie to ourselves.

What does this have to do with literary self-consistency in any way shape or form?

Non Sequitur.. doesn't follow. Not relevant. Not pertinent. Not actually the subject. Does not apply to the question. Is besides the point.

It's almost as if you had answered my question, but this is not the case. .you answered some OTHER question.. I have no idea what that might be.

At least in saying such the notion that any of these bore any semblance of Absolute Truth is ridiculous.

Good, we agree. Any claim to absolute knowledge made by beings without absolute intelligence or data is completely fallacious.

In the Absolute Sense? It will never happen. And yes, such claimants are blatant LIARS.

They might not just be blatant liars. You exaggerate.

1. People sometimes don't have all the data needed to make a good decision.
2. People also think poorly sometimes.
3. People do make honest mistakes.
4. People also might have been subjected to indoctrination and really believe that what they say is true.
5. Some people are delusional, and CANNOT know the difference between what is true and what is only imagined.
6. Some people make a plea that what is TRUE is very variable.. some believe that reality is completely subjective and that there IS no real truth of any kind.

Not all people are LIARS who don't agree with you. I usually never agree with you. I can assure you that I am not a liar when I do so.

But that is NOT the proposition anyway. That does NOT mean that partial sights do not contain value prospects. Science is always incomplete. Theology is no different.

And that is NOT to say that partial sights are TRUE. These partial sights might be false. How are we to tell?

Your INSIGHTS about the bible are not the WORDS in the Bible. Your interpretations of the bible are NOT what is written in the bible, but YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT what is written.

We can get GREAT insights by reading comic books. This does NOT mean that the comic books themselves are repositories of great wisdom, even IF your insights are brilliantly wise.

God in Christ held Himself out on a stick for a very short period of time. We are to not to know Him in that way any longer but He Is Here to be known, in the now and only in part.

How is he "here" to be "known".. in what way? do you mean that he remains as a character in a very popular book? That's just like saying Harry Potter is still here to be known. You aren't saying very much.

That's like saying Superman is here to be known. But who cares about the ability of people to read stories? We can know the contents of stories. This says NOTHING about the truth of the stories. The stories can be FALSE.

IS this story about Christ true? That's my question.

I KNOW already that I can KNOW about this Jesus character. I know a lot about this book character. My question is this book character real? Is this book character MORE than a book character and how do we KNOW it if it's true?

How about the god .. this is also a book character.. how do we know that the GOD is more than a character in a book?

How about demons, and angels and magical events of all kinds.. How do we know that these EVENTS are real or true?

I can read.. I can be preached to .. I DO read, and I DO get preached to .. on a daily basis I get preached to.

I can "know" this Christ character and all of the wacky characters in the book as much as I care to.

That NEVER means this Christ character is REAL in the same way as it never means the SUPERMAN or Spiderman character is real.

That would include religious claims to absolute knowledge by humans.

Undoubtedly. God is the endgame when it comes to human knowledge as the Eternal Unknown. Science is quickly coming to the same event horizon is it not?

Why do you say that God is the endgame when it comes to human knowledge? What an astoundingly circular statement. No, I have no reason to accept that statement as a FACT.. but I notice that you still present YOUR OPINION as if it were a fact.

I don't have to follow you there. You'd have to PROVE to me that your statement is true. Otherwise.. it's another opinion. Opinion, opinion, opinion.. and not a drop of reason to support it. I reject your statement about God and human knowledge completely.

If you care to prove it.. I will pay attention to it. I will not simply take your opinions as true. You have way too many of them.. And I am just not that gullible.

So, this is merely your opinion, right? You aren't saying that I should take your statement as TRUE, are you?

About science. Where did you ever get THAT bit of information..NO, it IS NOT.

Event horizon.. what, that god exists?
You must be deep into christian apologetics. Many preachers claim that science has proven god and so forth... all bogus pseudo-scientific clap-trap word salad.

This is not actual science. There is NO science "studying" the existence of god, or the nature of your god or anything REMOTELY like that. What we HAVE are preachers preaching dishonestly, using science words to make themselves sound more credible.

Lying about science doesn't raise their credibility with the likes of me. It rather does the very OPPOSITE. As soon as a charlatan misrepresents the truth of a matter, it helps me WEED HIM OUT.

Your claims about science are illegitimate. AT BEST you could only show pseudo-science. we know about bad science pretending to be good science.
Science has a mechanism to weed this out.

That's whats good about science. Bull doesn't work. If you make a claim in science and don't have the method or the data to back it up.. if just fails as science. And your next paper.. isn't taken seriously. Because of your prior failure. Actual scientists have limited time and resources to spend on claims. Only the BEST kind of claims get through the gauntlet of the scientific method.

It upsets me that people want to deteriorate science. We RELY on science to survive in this very complex world. The only thing I've seen coming from some kind of "spiritual science" is that if you sit for a very long time, you are likely to relax. I knew that when I was 2.

The Mystery of the Unknown is always more tantalizing to all of us and we are always drawn into it in various ways.

Yes, humans are curious. Science is an appropriate response to curiosity. What does this have to do with how we know that the bible stories are true?

Mysteries are mysteries. Doesn't prove your bible is true.

Familiarity breeds contempt if I recall the saying. Once one mystery is solved, on to the next. This too is part of our nature. I respect the prospects of the Eternal Mystery far moreso than any given temporal powers.

Familiarity also breeds love. Your wisdom seems to be focused on the negative aspects of life. I'm not impressed by the LOCUS of you FOCUS. Negativity does that to me.. I find it despairingly NEGATIVE. There is more to life than the negative. IN MY OPINION.

By definition , a MYSTERY is something you don't know. So, you respect something you don't know more than you respect something that you CAN know and do know already.

I guess you don't like politics. That might be interesting in a discussion about politics. I have no idea what this has to do with knowledge of god.

They made no such claims. Anyone who claims differently has extended their boundaries by a considerable length into a territory that they don't have and never had to begin with.

I'm not entirely sure that "they made no such claims". Hard to prove a negative like that.. if I ask you to PROVE that statement.. You'd pretty much have to show me everywhere they DIDN'T make that claim.

There is no claim to be had on The Eternal Mystery.

You've made THREE claims in one very short sentence.

You have MADE a claim about this "eternal mystery".

1. First, that an "eternal mystery" EXISTS.. ( whatever it is.. seems to be something special )
2. Second, that there can be NO CLAIMS MADE about it. This is a claim.
3. That this mystery IS eternal. ( that's a kind of mystery.. not sure what other kinds you think there are, but this is a very long one.. indeed )

Or is this just another opinion I'm supposed to .. what.. be entertained with?.. Amused by?

You seem to have a very weak grasp of what constitutes a "claim" or "opinion".

I can completely ignore your opinions. I will be concerned about your proof for any claim.
So far, many many opinions.
I will ignore those.

As to your completely unsupported claims?
I'll wait for any reason to believe those.

So, what do I get from your answers?

Opinions I have to ignore, and claims that are not substantiated.

That's not a lot.

Other mysteries will have their endings, such as the "mystery" of iniquity. There is an END to that chapter.

When we find the answer to a mystery, it's not a mystery any more. And if we don't find an answer to a mystery it REMAINS a mystery. I agree.

Mountains generally remain mountains until they aren't mountains any more. Things that are the way that they are, are the way that they are. Things that aren't the same as they used to be aren't the same way that they used to be.

Yes, and SO?

Some things change, and some things remain the same. What is your point?

And if I showed you ONE instance when they DID make that claim, your statement would be disproved. As it stands.. I'll stay neutral.

There is not one presenter in the scriptures that holds out tangible evidence and says/claims "this is God." That never happened.

That's right. NO evidence of any kind whatsoever. That was my point.

There are claims that for example:

1. A god exists
2. A god creates the universe
3. A god creates human
4. A god is good
5. A god is jealous
6. A god is destructive
7. A god lies
8. A god never lies
9. A god punishes
10. A god rewards
11. A god forgives
12. A god doesn't forgive
13. A god is only one god
14. A god is three

And so on and so and so on.. these are claims about god and the nature of god.

there are many, many more.

But I agree.. not a shred of evidence.

Even Jesus Christ was a defined man/Image IN WHOM was "the Spirit without limit." The Great Objective BOUND within an Image of His Choosing.

That is another claim. It's a weird one. I can hardly follow it as to your meaning, but it's a claim. If you say that this is a TRUE statement.. and you want to convince anyone that it's a true statement, and if anyone DOUBTS that it's a true statement, then you would need to DO something to convince that person.. if you wanted to be taken seriously

Is this a claim you are willing to support with evidence and reason, or is this yet another opinion that I should ignore?

So yeah, what He had to say I pay very close attentions to.

Some people are Beatles fans. Some people like the Rolling Stones. Some people pay attention to OPRAH. Some people pay attention to comic books. These all have a "lot to say".

But is any of it TRUE in any way?.. we KNOW that fictions are not meant to be taken as true.. but the Bible seems to present itself AS TRUE. But IS IT TRUE?

How would we know?

Maybe it's just another wonderful work of fiction. Like a comic book.. Like Harry Potter or the Lord of the Rings, or the Matrix.. INTERNALLY.. they seem to be about some truth..

And a FAN can get a lot of "meaning" from these books. They do, actually, get a lot of meaning. Some guy in here is telling me that Christianity is like the Matrix movie.

All virtual reality. Yeah, fiction has meaning. But is fiction TRUE?

Is fiction TRUE like science is true or math is true, or logic is true?

Is fiction true the same way that 1+1=2 is true?

Is the bible more like a work of FICTION or is it more like a work of SCIENCE and MATH or NON FICTION?

How much of the bible is TRUE and ACCURATE and how much of it is imaginary and false?

And how can we know one way or another. THIS is my question.

THIS is my ONLY question. I have repeated this SAME question about.. what.. more than a dozen times, surely.

IS the bible an accurate description of reality?
IS god magic real?

HOW can you demonstrate this ?

I wish people would say things they can demonstrate to be true and leave the rest at home.

But I agree with you that people who insist they have some absolute kind of knowledge are either lying, being logically incoherent.. or they are delusional. I'm happy you don't put yourself into these categories.

I'd like to think that theology contains enough room to entertain and engage us all.

Yes, we can all dream. I'd like to think of world peace and food and clean water for all.
Dreams are nice.

Reality is a bit different. I don't LOOK to theology for my entertainment. I use Netflix these days. But I can see how theology is a giggle. It's not MEANT to be hilarious.. but what the hey. Inadvertent humor is still funny. But usually, I take theology as very SAD.

People fooling themselves, pretending to KNOW stuff they really can't. How many angels on the head of a pin?.. who cares ?

Theology is self-deception in my point of view.

I find similar delights in philosophy or material discoveries as well.

At least these can be somewhat related to REALITY. We can potentially TEST to see if some philosophy is bogus or not. We can TEST to see if some scientific claim is bogus or not. We can't possibly do that with theology. Theology isn't CONCERNED about what is real or true. BUT theology does present itself as if it is.

I prefer reality to some pretend reality, thank you.

At least a work of popular FICTION isn't trying to misrepresent itself as true. That's honesty. Theology is dishonest. It presents .. imaginary things as real things.
This is illegitimate. THE MINUTE some theologian admits he isn't talking about something REAL or TRUE.. then I'll pay some attention to theology.

Otherwise, I understand theology to be spinning stories in order to make a religion seem more real than it is. It's a con job.. It's a sales job, its outdated, it's basically corrupt and meaningless.

Lots and lots of money goes into this venture. We don't profit one iota from it. This project is at LEAST a few thousand years old. What benefits to mankind?

Have they PROVED a god exists? No, they haven't. With all of those brains, with all of that time.. all those monks. LIVES spent at theology.

No proof of god.

What a WASTE.

In a few hundred years, science has cured many CANCERS.. we have gone to the MOON, we can transport ourselves all around the world, we can talk to one another all around the world INSTANTLY.. we know so much using science.. the list is VERY long indeed.

But theology? ... god is good? .. pray?.. what? pray extra HARD NOW?.. what are the benefits to mankind that theology has ever given us?

A veneer of intellectual respectability for religion is all theology is.. a CON game .. nothing more.

My god is real and yours is not.. MY GOD is good and yours is evil.
THAT my friends, is my opinion about theology.

I would even propose that we all step off our respective subjective control boxes and make the computers run the world and make all our decisions for us while we sit back, enjoy life and save the planet in the process. Imagine that? Wouldn't that be just GRAND?

I ask you for your REASONS for believing what you do and you suggest that I take a nice NAP. What is this.. More Kindergarten stuff?

Putting me to sleep isn't answering any of my questions. Sorry.

Yes, sometimes it's good to relax. But then, it's also good to work.
Sometimes, it's good to stop thinking for a while.
You suggest we STOP being subjective and just.. be much more subjective. Let's not TRY to think rationally AT ALL.

That's your answer to our subjectivity? MORE of it?

We can cure some cancer another day, feed the poor another day, heal the sick, love one another all on another day. Stop wars another day.

Save a child's life some other day. It's important for us to relax and enjoy.
I get it. I think a child who's life is in immanent danger should ALSO be able to take a day off and do bugger all.

We can all use a break.
Let's STOP thinking.. for a little while.

Stop thinking for LIFE?..
Not a good plan.

When Pilate asked Jesus "what is truth" Jesus didn't bother to answer.

So, Jesus doesn't know anything absolutely?... Or wasn't recorded properly, or couldn't think of a witty comeback or maybe he had a really bad case of dry mouth.. I thought he was a god? Or part of the god that DOES know everything absolutely?

Interesting contemplation ain't it? Here you have a guy asking God in the flesh what is truth and He had no reply. Funny.

Oh, it's hilarious. The story is weird. I don't really care about the story itself. I don't take it as true. Why do you?.. or DO you ?

That was my question. how do we know that Jesus DID actually, in truth, really, ask this stuff?

Someone was recording his thoughts?
They had some notepad?
Every word counts when you're a god/man dying/living and question/know everything.

But there are deeper scriptural principles behind this matter.

Is this a fact, or is this YET another one of your opinions?
If you don't supply evidence, I will go with opinion and ignore it.

You CLAIM to have some deep deep scriptural principle that is hidden behind the veil.. PLEASE remove the veil now.

Stop teasing. I got bored of people pretending to know things and then not demonstrating them.. a LONG time ago.

Car Salesman: "THIS CAR IS THE BEST CAR"
Me :"Can we open the hood?"
Car Salesman: "NO WE CANNOT OPEN THE HOOD."
Me : "I know someone who might want to buy a car from you."

Hardly makes internally consistent sense to me .. Maybe that's why this three in one kind of god is so debated... for lack of internal self-consistency.

Or maybe.. None of the Jesus story is true at all?.. maybe it's a story, internally self-consistent to a debatable degree...but mostly or completely fictional?

If you understand that scripture presents we are 'bound' with strangers that God doesn't KNOW you'd see why Jesus didn't answer./quote]

No, you can't KNOW what this guy thought, or his actual motivations are. SURE, you can speculate all day long.. but you can't read minds.

You can read a book. You can interpret a book.. Sure.. you can make things up. The story says this the story says that.

But is any of this story true. that is my question. is any of this TRUE?

If you say it's true.. that you KNOW that it is true, then you should be able to supply evidence to SHOW how you know that this is true.

You have yet to do so.

How are we to know?

Part of us already knows and hears. And part of us never will know or hear. That's how we're all put together.

So, sometimes you know stuff, and other times you don't. YES I AGREE

But the question wasn't IF we can know things or not.. the question was HOW do we know things, and in particular, how do we know anything in the bible is true?.

NOT IF

HOW do we know anything in the Bible is true?

IF isn't HOW...

[JoeyKnothead]

.
[Replying to post 66 by WinePusher]

Perhaps it is a sincere (if unintended) compliment when opposing debaters cannot dispute major points / arguments (such as "H. sapiens are animals" or "Religion requires 'take my word for it'") but focus on whatever small "mistakes" they can find. This is amplified when they are congratulated as though it was a major coup.

Such are the notions of those who represent a class of folks who think once you're dead, well ya ain't.

But I'm with all of y'all, that if Zzyzx ever tells he don't believe in him no gneiss, or if he thinks mica hops up from a three day dead, well to heck with it, y'all dog-pile 'im, and I'll clear back to count how many it takes to do it.

(edit 'cause a word got accidentalled)

[squint]

Oh.. no doubt it's fun. But I could say the same for comic books full of super-heroes.

Media sells the notion that there is good person A and bad person B.

Scripture has a broader baseline that none care to hear. That there is no such thing as person A.

I find that information very valuable to keep in mind. In your view, the Bible presents mankind as evil. Great teaching. Seems to be one sided. People are also very good.

Uh, yeah.

I can say the same for comic-books. I can find many "truths" within the wonderful imagery. We should never forget the valuable information found therein.

Your own mind should tell you the same about yourself.

In comic books, people are very evil. And people are very good. Not so one sided as the Bible seems to be. I like the balanced approach of the comic books, because I happen to know quite a few humans. They are MORE than just evil being. I can assure you. I'm sorry if you live in a different part of the world. There ARE some very nasty places in the world.

People have always been the same and all always have the same issues.

I'm blessed. I live in a good part of the world where people can and do exhibit properties that I would call "good". Lucky, hey?

Lucky you.

No, the question was WHY believe any of it is true. SAYING that it's true because it's true is going around in circles and around in circles and going around and around.
Stop the circle please.
My head is spinning.

It is true that all people are a composite, internally, of both good and evil. Fairly simple premise of fact to understand and even to "test" personally. So many of you here try to spin off christianity into sensationalism. It isn't any more than recognizing internal evil and not being enslaved by it.

What I meant was why should we believe that any of the REPUTED things that are portrayed in the Bible actually happened. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Genesis, The Flood.. the Garden of Eden, Tower of Babel, the sermon on the mount, all of it... at least the super-hero stuff.

Scriptures are interesting accounts in God's dealings and interactions with the evil quotients in man.

Why should we take the authors as reliable and not just clever fiction writers?

A lot if not most people at some point in their lives confront similar issues.

I know that moral platitudes aren't quite rocket science. Humans can be evil, and humans can be good. WOW.. I'm not stunned by the depth of that statement. Don't need more than a comic book to get that bit of info.

Obviously your comic book mentality is showing. There is no person A who is good and person B who is evil. I'd suggest better comic books.

Is THAT the truth in the Bible?..

Uh, yeah. Pretty simple ain't it?

Then who needs any Bible?

I don't doubt that in observing life, creation, even a person examining themselves, internally, that any person can come to the same conclusion on this matter.

If anything the "Bible" has the well proven potential to make people MUCH MUCH worse. You could end up hating your neighbors for not "thinking like you" and commit them to burn alive forever and could also be a RIPE hypocrite, which is in fact what happens to the MAJORITY of believers. So I really wouldn't necessarily recommend the journey to anyone and I've seen it happen too many times to even keep track of.

I agree with you there. I was, however, talking about the Jesus beliefs.. the rising from the dead, the need for salvation, Heaven and Hell, all of that stuff. Good and evil work themselves out all the time in comic books. As you say, not the moral equivalent of rocket science.

In faith we learn to experience things like mercy, hope, forgiveness, comfort, contemplation, discipline, patience, present reward, future expectations, etc in this "temporary" thing we call life.

And also, it's quite obvious that your observations might be mistaken for any number of reasons. I deal in REASONS..

There are many good reasons to engage ourselves in life and values.

I think if you say that humans are ONLY evil, this would be easily disproved. SO if the Bible says that.. it's just wrong. It's wrong about a very important moral fact about humans.

I think every person is saved in the end in any case. That does bring a certain amount of comfort. If in your mind that translates to whoopee, I can do all the evil you want, it very well might. In fact that is exactly what happens to the majority of the adherents. They end up hating all their neighbors and commit them to burn alive forever. That trap is REAL as is the evil internal impetus that pushes them headlong in that direction.

Christianity does not present that faith in Christ is some present cure all by any means. I'd say the opposite is more true. Unbelievers are generally blind to being controlled by internal evil. Christians accelerate that engagement. I'd say the majority end up as much much worse people. Some end up completely nut cases.

This is NOT in favor of the bible being an accurate description of reality.

Everyone has a different and entirely subjective reality. I've never met one person who has the same life as me.

Mankind is going to be evil?
How about mankind is also going to be good?

Let's not talk comic book sights, K? Every person is both good and evil internally regardless of what kind of war paint they wear or what kind of religious cloth they adorn themselves with.

I think the "truth" that you are talking about here is your interpretation of these books. Sure, we can interpret any book and "get" stuff out of it. I can look at a wall and get inspired by that too.

The most interesting things in the text to observe are on the dark sides of the ledgers. People, by their resisting nature, are automatically repelled to observe their internals. People being pushed away is a very common and natural phenomena. Happens every day. Many of the more fervent believers arrived at christianity because life brought them to the end of their proverbial ropes, and they were compelled to deal with the fact that they are an evil uncontrollable mess. They recognized that they were pawns and slaves of themselves, their own internal evil. And they don't know why. And they then "turn." And God in Christ HELPS them crawl out of their messes.

I am talking about the weird and magical CLAIMS in the Bible, not the moral ideas you can gleam from the stories. Are the stories TRUE.. did the events actually HAPPEN the way they are written?

I think the general history of pre-Judaic/past Judaic and N.T. scripture and the ways and means that God dealt/intervened with those particular people are very interesting topics to engage. Depends on what you think. There are vast amounts of far more interesting observations therein than meets the common eye. Certainly not meant to be understood by many. Most christians get entirely lost in the subject matter. Very few have any reasonable understandings. I'd say an unbeliever isn't going to "get it" and won't. The text is very strange in this way. Either you submit to it's more basic findings and understandings "personally", or you will be locked out of understandings, guaranteed. It has doors that can and are opened and that can be and are shut. And these locks are set. Sealed. Impenetrable. The "evil" within the reader will NEVER get it. And is not meant to understand by these internal quotients that we have.

In every way what the scriptures present is DESTRUCTION to that part of ourselves, that "internal evil," so there is a quite natural impetus of evil in the reader to be repelled and repulsed by what the scripture contains in this regard.

All that external hoo haa that you so vehemently reject is actually an external picture of a forthcoming "internal reality."

The "evil" that all men have and contain within themselves is NOT them as Gods children.

So if you want to "comic book" this matter, it's far better than any comic you'll ever read. In fact if you get good at it, these "entities" will even show their faces to you in real life, real time, even within you. But if a man prefers and is essentially "led" by that "alternate" internal evil force, they will just remain their happy happy enslaved self. They won't know, won't see, and in fact weren't meant to see to begin with.

One thing does happen in these types of engagements though. The GOSPEL of destruction was 'delivered' regardless of whether a man hears or not, because "man" isn't the only one listening.

And that's part of the unfolding drama. Everybody has a part to play.

That's what I'm asking about.. not how you can "GET" something out of the stories. I know you can "get" something out of the stories.
You have an imagination, so it's not surprising to me that you use it.

Like I said, the interesting parts of the scriptures are NOT found in the external arena, but in the patterns of engagements with mankinds INTERNAL evil.

Jesus recognized that the "temple" of Jerusalem had been "essentially" taken captive. We were given that picture in the "external senses" of a physical man, Jesus, and a physical temple, there in Jerusalem.

But that really was not the exercise whatsoever. It's an historical FACT that physical temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. But here, Jesus engaged the "real" captors of said TEMPLE: (Jesus, addressing what MOST see as only PEOPLE:)

John 8:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

You or any other person can read the above all day long, but unless and until you are personally led by God in Christ no less, to face your own internal captor, you will not and can not hear for any reason.

No external historical analysis about external "Rome" or external "Jews" are going to yield up any understandings of the treasures of scripture because they are ALL HIDDEN on the dark/evil internal sides of the ledgers of mankind, internally.

Once the red pill has been delivered, there is no going back.

I've said enough on this matter in this post. If you get it, fine. It's really not my call anyway. I just enjoy the alternative engagement sides of the ledgers. Do I think Blastcat is going to be saved? Yep. So I have no issues with you or any other person. Just showing you what's really IN there, in the scriptures, and also knowing that it's not just "you" listening just like it wasn't just the Pharisees above that Jesus was "talking to."

Enjoy the drama. You have your part to play regardless of what you "believe."

[Clownboat]

So if you want to "comic book" this matter, it's far better than any comic you'll ever read. In fact if you get good at it, these "entities" will even show their faces to you in real life, real time, even within you.

Squint, I take this as you claiming to have seen the faces of these entities that you claim exist. Can you tell me what they looked like and whether or not you were able to communicate with them?

[squint]

So if you want to "comic book" this matter, it's far better than any comic you'll ever read. In fact if you get good at it, these "entities" will even show their faces to you in real life, real time, even within you.

Squint, I take this as you claiming to have seen the faces of these entities that you claim exist. Can you tell me what they looked like and whether or not you were able to communicate with them?

Not at all. The evil that is within man speaks from MAN. I hear the voices of evil in believers everytime they promote burning people alive forever in fire. I know that is SATAN speaking in them and through them.

[Clownboat]

So if you want to "comic book" this matter, it's far better than any comic you'll ever read. In fact if you get good at it, these "entities" will even show their faces to you in real life, real time, even within you.

Squint, I take this as you claiming to have seen the faces of these entities that you claim exist. Can you tell me what they looked like and whether or not you were able to communicate with them?

Not at all. The evil that is within man speaks from MAN. I hear the voices of evil in believers everytime they promote burning people alive forever in fire. I know that is SATAN speaking in them and through them.

Actually, it is people reading and interpreting the Bible. You know, just like you. Odd that people come to so many different conclusions from this suposedly god inspired book don't you think. The one thing all of them have in common is that non of them can show that they speak the truth.

Please explain something for me.
According to you, how is it that Satan speaks through people? Does he enter their bodies and take control of their vocal cords?

How can I know that this is not just about you? You hear something you don't like, and can easily reject said thing by invoking some Satan concept that is doing the speaking through them?
Please explain the mechanism that caused you to "know a Satan is speaking through them".

We know people say things, but we don't know that there is a Satan that controls peoples speaking. This includes you squint. This is quite a claim you make. You act like you have knowledge that you don't/can't have. Or at least you fail so far to demonstrate that you have such knowledge.

You are literally a stranger on the internet making some awfully odd claims. What assurances can you give that would provide some credence? Hopefully it is not just more odd claims, but I wont hold my breadth.

[squint]

Not at all. The evil that is within man speaks from MAN. I hear the voices of evil in believers everytime they promote burning people alive forever in fire. I know that is SATAN speaking in them and through them.

Actually, it is people reading and interpreting the Bible. You know, just like you.

Actually not. It's the presence of evil within being exposed and expressed.

Odd that people come to so many different conclusions from this suposedly god inspired book don't you think.

Not odd at all. It's what's supposed to happen.

The one thing all of them have in common is that non of them can show that they speak the truth.

What truth might that be? Quite a sum of matters of scripture are self evident and personally examinable.

Please explain something for me.
According to you, how is it that Satan speaks through people? Does he enter their bodies and take control of their vocal cords?

There is no discerning Satan from "self.". All who want to see/promote burning other people alive forever will ALL think/see it's just them.

And so will you.

[KenRU]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 842#715842]
Not at all. The evil that is within man speaks from MAN. I hear the voices of evil in believers everytime they promote burning people alive forever in fire. I know that is SATAN speaking in them and through them.

Actually, it is people reading and interpreting the Bible. You know, just like you.

Actually not. It's the presence of evil within being exposed and expressed.

This statement is clearly a "Take My Word For It" assertion. Unless you'd care to prove your claim?

[Clownboat]

Not at all. The evil that is within man speaks from MAN. I hear the voices of evil in believers everytime they promote burning people alive forever in fire. I know that is SATAN speaking in them and through them.

Actually, it is people reading and interpreting the Bible. You know, just like you.

I'm going to debate like you even at the risk of you beating me with experience. Let's see how that goes.

Actually not. It's the presence of evil within being exposed and expressed.

Nuh uh.

Odd that people come to so many different conclusions from this suposedly god inspired book don't you think.

Not odd at all. It's what's supposed to happen.

Nuh uh.

The one thing all of them have in common is that non of them can show that they speak the truth.

What truth might that be? Quite a sum of matters of scripture are self evident and personally examinable.

Seriously?
- Creation
- Talking animals
- Dead bodies being reanimated
- Waling on Water
Have you even read the book?

Please explain something for me.
According to you, how is it that Satan speaks through people? Does he enter their bodies and take control of their vocal cords?

There is no discerning Satan from "self.". All who want to see/promote burning other people alive forever will ALL think/see it's just them.

Nuh uh.

And so will you.

Nuh uh.

Now ask me to provide evidence for my "Nuh uh's" so I can ignore the request and make more outlandish claims without any evidence whatsoever.

How did I do? I tried pretty hard to make claims without providing any suggestion that they might be true.
Did I convince you? If not, I can certainly make more un-evidenced claims if that will somehow help. You know, like the only things you so far have been able to post here.

I wonder why that is and do I know what a rhetorical question is?

[Blastcat]

Oh.. no doubt it's fun. But I could say the same for comic books full of super-heroes.

Media sells the notion that there is good person A and bad person B.

Scripture has a broader baseline that none care to hear. That there is no such thing as person A.

You LITERALLY deny that people are good?
THAT'S AMAZING.
I don't share your absolute negativity about humans.
I have two kids.

The very idea that they aren't good people makes me sick to my stomach.
You can keep your interpretation of Scripture.

I find that information very valuable to keep in mind. In your view, the Bible presents mankind as evil. Great teaching. Seems to be one sided. People are also very good.

Uh, yeah.

So, this is wisdom? People are good and people are bad?.. that's it?

I can say the same for comic-books. I can find many "truths" within the wonderful imagery. We should never forget the valuable information found therein.

Your own mind should tell you the same about yourself.

Could you repeat that so I can make sense out of it?

In comic books, people are very evil. And people are very good. Not so one sided as the Bible seems to be. I like the balanced approach of the comic books, because I happen to know quite a few humans. They are MORE than just evil being. I can assure you. I'm sorry if you live in a different part of the world. There ARE some very nasty places in the world.

People have always been the same and all always have the same issues.

People are good and people are bad. People change and people stay the same. I don't see how this passes for wisdom.

I'm blessed. I live in a good part of the world where people can and do exhibit properties that I would call "good". Lucky, hey?

Lucky you.

Yes, I said I was lucky. Do you live in a part of the world where people are all just bad?
Are you sure that people aren't loving and kind and generous and sharing and giving and filled with POSITIVE attitudes all around you, each and every day?

Do you honestly believe that all children are EVIL?
That's so weird.

No, the question was WHY believe any of it is true. SAYING that it's true because it's true is going around in circles and around in circles and going around and around.
Stop the circle please.
My head is spinning.

It is true that all people are a composite, internally, of both good and evil. Fairly simple premise of fact to understand and even to "test" personally. So many of you here try to spin off christianity into sensationalism. It isn't any more than recognizing internal evil and not being enslaved by it.

So people can be good. And people can be evil. Is this some stunning revelation you got from the Bible? You still haven't answered my question. I am ASKING you how we can know if the Bible is true? the magic bits.. the creation bits.. the walking on water bits. the redemption, the resurrection, the virgin birth, the big honking flood bits.. those bits.. why should we believe those bits?

Why believe in magic stories?

It isn't any more than recognizing internal goodness and being blessed by it.

But you do seem fixated on the negative aspects of your existence and other people.
I'm sorry to hear that.

But why should we believe in the magic stories all of your weird interpretations are BASED on?

What I meant was why should we believe that any of the REPUTED things that are portrayed in the Bible actually happened. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Genesis, The Flood.. the Garden of Eden, Tower of Babel, the sermon on the mount, all of it... at least the super-hero stuff.

Scriptures are interesting accounts in God's dealings and interactions with the evil quotients in man.

WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE these things even happened?.. you keep missing the point.. missing the point.. missing the question. Focused on how people are evil.

Can't you AT LEAST acknowledge the question and say SOMETHING about the actual question?

Why should we take the authors as reliable and not just clever fiction writers?

A lot if not most people at some point in their lives confront similar issues.

I don't care about other people right now. I am asking YOU for an answer to this question. You keep avoiding the question. What is WRONG with this question.. will it melt your mind?

Can't you at least acknowledge the actual question and try to answer it one way or the other?

WHY SHOULD WE take the authors of the Bible as reliable... ?
Why should we take the bible stories as TRUE stories?

Do you SEE the questions?

I know that moral platitudes aren't quite rocket science. Humans can be evil, and humans can be good. WOW.. I'm not stunned by the depth of that statement. Don't need more than a comic book to get that bit of info.

Obviously your comic book mentality is showing. There is no person A who is good and person B who is evil. I'd suggest better comic books.

You say that humans are evil.
I guess some people fight against evil..

That's pretty much what you say. Maybe you should consider better holy books.
However, I don't base MY morality on comic books. Or any book. I am COMPARING your holy book to comic books.

Is THAT the truth in the Bible?..

Uh, yeah. Pretty simple ain't it?

Very simple. Just like in the comic books. Evil and Good people battle it out in comic books and fairy tales. So do they in your bible. I'm not going to take my morality from simplistic stories, no matter WHAT the source.

But if the source includes magic.. then I have to discount that source as superstitious nonsense. Unless, of course , someone proves that MAGIC happens. Why should we take your magical bible stories as true?

Then who needs any Bible?

I don't doubt that in observing life, creation, even a person examining themselves, internally, that any person can come to the same conclusion on this matter.

Yes, you believe your own position. You might have convinced yourself that you are right. That's not the question. What I'm asking is how WE can be convinced along with you. WHY should we believe what you do?

Why should we believe that magic stories are real? Why should we believe that any of the Bible stories are true?

If anything the "Bible" has the well proven potential to make people MUCH MUCH worse. You could end up hating your neighbors for not "thinking like you" and commit them to burn alive forever and could also be a RIPE hypocrite, which is in fact what happens to the MAJORITY of believers. So I really wouldn't necessarily recommend the journey to anyone and I've seen it happen too many times to even keep track of.

Then we agree. The bible isn't a reliable method to become a good person. What is then?
Is any of the magic Bible stories TRUE ?

Yes, no?... what do you say?
And how do we PROVE that what the bible says is true?

Any ideas at all?

I agree with you there. I was, however, talking about the Jesus beliefs.. the rising from the dead, the need for salvation, Heaven and Hell, all of that stuff. Good and evil work themselves out all the time in comic books. As you say, not the moral equivalent of rocket science.

In faith we learn to experience things like mercy, hope, forgiveness, comfort, contemplation, discipline, patience, present reward, future expectations, etc in this "temporary" thing we call life.

Why do you use faith for these great things? I don't use faith.. I admire all of these qualities you mention. I don't need faith in some god to get them.

Why do you think anyone needs to have faith in some god to get these good things?

And also, it's quite obvious that your observations might be mistaken for any number of reasons. I deal in REASONS..

There are many good reasons to engage ourselves in life and values.

Yes, we don't need a belief in a god at all. So why do you advocate that we DO need this belief system? Or.. ARE you advocating this at all?

It's hard to tell, really.

I think if you say that humans are ONLY evil, this would be easily disproved. SO if the Bible says that.. it's just wrong. It's wrong about a very important moral fact about humans.

I think every person is saved in the end in any case.

So, if we are all "saved" in the "end".. what's the hoopla about?.. Why believe in one god story over another one? Why believe any of it is TRUE?

If all of this doesn't MATTER.. why BOTHER?

Remember my main question? WHY take any of the Bible as TRUE?

Could you at least make a STAB at an answer? I'd truly like an answer. I'm actually interested in how you think. That's why I repeated the SAME question about two dozen times of more here.

That does bring a certain amount of comfort.

The last time I noticed, what makes us comfortable might not be true. Delusions might make us comfortable. Heroin makes people feel very comfortable. Comfort isn't a reliable criteria for what is TRUE.

If in your mind that translates to whoopee, I can do all the evil you want, it very well might.

I actually DO all the evil I want to do. ( it's not a lot )

In fact that is exactly what happens to the majority of the adherents. They end up hating all their neighbors and commit them to burn alive forever. That trap is REAL as is the evil internal impetus that pushes them headlong in that direction.

Those adherents, not your kind of adherence. They are false adherents, you are a true adherent.

That's the classic No True Scotsman argument. Didn't I tell you about how LAME that kind of argument was?

You keep using it as if it HELPED YOUR CASE in any way. But it doesn't help your case.
It makes your case sound SILLY.

Really, you should stop using the No True Scotsman fallacy, if your goal is to sound reasonable. Don't you CARE if you're taken seriously in a debate?

Christianity does not present that faith in Christ is some present cure all by any means. I'd say the opposite is more true.

Your opinion has been noted. Why should I care about your opinion?

Unbelievers are generally blind to being controlled by internal evil. Christians accelerate that engagement. I'd say the majority end up as much much worse people. Some end up completely nut cases.

Your opinion has been noted. Why should I care about it?

This is NOT in favor of the bible being an accurate description of reality.

Everyone has a different and entirely subjective reality. I've never met one person who has the same life as me.

Ahh here it is. You don't believe in reality.
You seem confused as what the word reality even means.

You equate "reality" for "life".
This is an illegitimate conflation of meanings.

Yes, nobody has your life.
There is only one reality, however.
Your OPINION about reality is NOT what reality IS.

Your opinions are your opinions, reality is something ENTIRELY different than your personal description of reality.

Your opinions are NOT reality.
Believing that reality is entirely subjective means that you believe in contradictory things.
This.. is completely irrational.

Being completely irrational does not help the rational case you are trying to make.
You have put yourself OUT of any reasonable debate.

Mankind is going to be evil?
How about mankind is also going to be good?

Let's not talk comic book sights, K?

Ok, then let's not talk about the Bible then, K?

Why not talk about comic books? If you claim to get insights from your holy book, I can also claim to get insights from anything I like. One of my points is that the bible reads like a comic book.

You need to prove that your bible is a better guide to morality than any other book, including any other holy books.

And any other comic book, too.

Every person is both good and evil internally regardless of what kind of war paint they wear or what kind of religious cloth they adorn themselves with.

Well, it's good to know that you think humans can be both GOOD and EVIL. You seem way too fixated on the evil aspects of humans.

Agree with that.
People can be GOOD and people can be EVIL.

Great. This is your moral wisdom from the bible?

This is also wisdom from most comic books, and certainly most OTHER holy books. What makes YOUR book so special, then?

I don't see any difference at all.. magic stories are pretty much based on magic. Good and evil people fighting each other.. prety much the story line of most super hero comic books.

Superman is all about good and evil.

I think the "truth" that you are talking about here is your interpretation of these books. Sure, we can interpret any book and "get" stuff out of it. I can look at a wall and get inspired by that too.

The most interesting things in the text to observe are on the dark sides of the ledgers.

Interesting to you perhaps.
You should talk for yourself. I don't agree.

You do focus more on the negative. I tend to focus more on the good of people. It might not look like it in DEBATES where all I do is criticize people's bad thinking, but in REAL life, I love people and love to be loved.

Being happy and being loved and loving are the best things in life for me. But you are more interested in evil people or the evil people can do. OK.. you find the evil parts of humans more interesting. Yeah, I got that.

People, by their resisting nature, are automatically repelled to observe their internals.

I have NO idea what that means.

People being pushed away is a very common and natural phenomena.

Some people are shunned by religious people. I don't shun people unless they are evil.
HOWEVER, I don't base my morality on any book.
I try to EMBRACE other people as much as I can.

I don't always succeed. I'm no angel. But at least that's what I VALUE.
I don't start OFF by looking for evil in people or thinking that they are evil as a presupposition. I find that idea a paranoid ideation I don't have to take on.

You are over-generalizing on the negative side. That's not a legitimate argument.

Happens every day. Many of the more fervent believers arrived at christianity because life brought them to the end of their proverbial ropes, and they were compelled to deal with the fact that they are an evil uncontrollable mess.

Most people are indoctrinated as children into religions. Some people are indoctrinated a bit later. Don't forget that we know about indoctrination.

They recognized that they were pawns and slaves of themselves, their own internal evil. And they don't know why. And they then "turn." And God in Christ HELPS them crawl out of their messes.

Yes, I have to agree. I hear this all the time from fundamentalist Christians.. and some other kinds of Protestants. However, this is the party line. They are EXPECTED to say these things.

They say these kinds of things over and over and over again.

They are told they have to. It says in the Bible that they have to.. They are told by their preachers that they have to. Then, some of them DENY any affiliation with these preachers.. but they say the exact same things as these preachers.... I'm not impressed that they say what they believe. I'd be MORE impressed if they could back up what they believe with some kind of evidence.

Why should we take what they say as true?

Why should we take the Bible as true?

I am talking about the weird and magical CLAIMS in the Bible, not the moral ideas you can gleam from the stories. Are the stories TRUE.. did the events actually HAPPEN the way they are written?

I'd say an unbeliever isn't going to "get it" and won't. The text is very strange in this way. Either you submit to it's more basic findings and understandings "personally", or you will be locked out of understandings, guaranteed.

You have to "submit" in order for it to make sense?
You have to just "get it" and not think about it or have good reasons for believing?
I think that method is weird and just wrong.

Very wrong.

I don't just submit to something in order to find out if it's true or not. That would be advocating insanity and circular thinking.

No, I just don't GIT IT. I have to be convinced with arguments that actually WORK.. if your arguments FAIL.. then I certainly WONT get it.. and I certainly wont SUBMIT to it.

What a weird idea!

It has doors that can and are opened and that can be and are shut. And these locks are set. Sealed. Impenetrable.

You penetrated the impenetrable?
Bad thinking like this isn't going to convince me.

IF you penetrated it, it's NOT impenetrable.

The "evil" within the reader will NEVER get it. And is not meant to understand by these internal quotients that we have.

Well, as you say, humans are good and evil. And some of us try to be neutral when looking for the truth of a matter.

So, if we are neutral, and try for objectivity, and not STAY evil.. and be biased that way, how can we know that any of this stuff is true?

In every way what the scriptures present is DESTRUCTION to that part of ourselves, that "internal evil," so there is a quite natural impetus of evil in the reader to be repelled and repulsed by what the scripture contains in this regard.

Your focus in on evil. However, I am asking how we can know if any of the Bible is true or not. In a neutral kind of way?

All that external hoo haa that you so vehemently reject is actually an external picture of a forthcoming "internal reality."

The "evil" that all men have and contain within themselves is NOT them as Gods children.

And the good is? So what?.. what does this have ANYTHING to do with how we can know if the Bible is true or not?

So if you want to "comic book" this matter, it's far better than any comic you'll ever read.

That's your opinion. I disagree. I have another opinion.

So what? It's a better fictional book. I might agree, I might not. Tastes are variable that way. No accounting for tastes..

HOWEVER, this isn't the point. I am ASKING AGAIN.. how do we know that any of the Bible stories are true stories?

In fact if you get good at it, these "entities" will even show their faces to you in real life, real time, even within you.

Good at what?
Interpreting things the way you do?

I can say exactly the same about comic book stories.
If you get GOOD at it, you can plainly see that I'm right and youre wrong.

Are you convinced now?
This is YOUR argument.

Maybe, you need a bit of REASON to believe me. Maybe.. or are you convinced?
I TOLD you my opinion.. It should convince you, since that's the method you use to convince me with.

Because opinions matter SO much to us.

But if a man prefers and is essentially "led" by that "alternate" internal evil force, they will just remain their happy happy enslaved self. They won't know, won't see, and in fact weren't meant to see to begin with.

So, what? God doesn't want some people to "see". Great.
I don't prefer to be led by ANYTHING. I prefer to use my reasoning.

Apparently, God has chosen you to see. Why should I believe that? AND why should I believe that ANY of the Bible is true?

One thing does happen in these types of engagements though. The GOSPEL of destruction was 'delivered' regardless of whether a man hears or not, because "man" isn't the only one listening.

So you claim. WHY should I believe that? Because YOU DO?
WHY should I believe your opinions?

And that's part of the unfolding drama. Everybody has a part to play.

That's what I'm asking about.. not how you can "GET" something out of the stories. I know you can "get" something out of the stories.
You have an imagination, so it's not surprising to me that you use it.

Like I said, the interesting parts of the scriptures are NOT found in the external arena, but in the patterns of engagements with mankinds INTERNAL evil

What does that mean? You find them interesting so they are TRUE?
Finding something is interesting does not guarantee that it is TRUE.

I don't care if parts are interesting to you and that other parts aren't interesting to you. I am repeatedly ASKING you why any of these Bible stories are to be taken as TRUE stories?

I find staring at comic books interesting. So what? Does that mean the comic book stories are TRUE?

Jesus recognized that the "temple" of Jerusalem had been "essentially" taken captive. We were given that picture in the "external senses" of a physical man, Jesus, and a physical temple, there in Jerusalem.

And so what? WHY should we believe THAT opinion?
Opinion after opinion. Opinions aren't demonstrating something is TRUE.

PLEASE focus on the actual question. You seem to be oblivious to it.

But that really was not the exercise whatsoever. It's an historical FACT that physical temple in Jerusalem was destroyed.

WOW a temple was destroyed. Wars happen. So WHAT?
Why should we take any of what the Bible says is true?... because a temple was destroyed? What about the god magic?

Does the destruction of a temple EXPLAIN why we should believe in god magic of any kind?

A temple being destroyed isn't a real problem. Temples are built, some are destroyed. OK.. no problem with that.

GOD MAGIC however, is a real problem. Why should we believe in GOD MAGIC.?. The Spiderman comic books take place in NEW YORK which is real, that doesn't mean Peter Parker has real super spidey senses FOR REAL.

Pretend is not for REAL...

Why should we believe anything supernatural in the Bible is true?

But here, Jesus engaged the "real" captors of said TEMPLE: (Jesus, addressing what MOST see as only PEOPLE:)

John 8:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Yes, that is true. I believe this not. Why should I?
I'm asking you how we can tell if EVEN THIS quote is true?
do we KNOW that this jesus character even SAID these words? Or do we have a STORY about Jesus saying these words?

I can see the book. I can read it. I can also see and read comic books.

How do we tell if any of these stories are TRUE or not?
Did they actually HAPPEN the way they are written?

Does Spiderman have super powers?
How can we tell?

Did Jesus really say these things, or not?
How can we TELL?

We have stories. Stories can be TRUE and stories can be FALSE.

How do we know the Bible stories are TRUE?

You or any other person can read the above all day long, but unless and until you are personally led by God in Christ no less, to face your own internal captor, you will not and can not hear for any reason.

Why should I believe THAT?

You need to be led BY god to believe in god and when you believe IN god you are led BY god and then you can believe in god who leads you to believe there is a god, here we go on the merry go round.

NO. Circular thinking isn't a good idea.

No external historical analysis about external "Rome" or external "Jews" are going to yield up any understandings of the treasures of scripture because they are ALL HIDDEN on the dark/evil internal sides of the ledgers of mankind, internally.

So we can't even use HISTORICAL methods to know if any of the Bible stories are true. That doesn't help anyone making the case for Biblical historicity.

So, you admit that we CAN'T know if the Bible is historically accurate. Well.. I would tend to agree with you there.

If the truth is HIDDEN how did you find out? Why should I believe you have this secret hidden knowledge?

If its hidden, how did you find out? Why should I believe you can see what others cant?
You DO want to be believable, right?

Once the red pill has been delivered, there is no going back.

I don't believe you have taken any red pill my friend.
I don't believe there IS a red pill.

You do say a lot of things...

I've said enough on this matter in this post. If you get it, fine. It's really not my call anyway.

Of course it's not your call. I make my own judgements. You have NOT answered the question as to WHY I SHOULD BELIEVE what you say is TRUE?

Why should I believe the BIBLE is true?
You haven't said enough about THAT. Not in the least. Not even close.

So, if you don't even ADDRESS the question, or try to answer it, OF COURSE I won't be convinced. You have to give me REASONS for that.

I just enjoy the alternative engagement sides of the ledgers. Do I think Blastcat is going to be saved? Yep.

I don't really care what your opinion is on this weird point. Do I think you are saying anything that can be verified as TRUE?

If you aren't really interested in proving your point, then you've lost by default.
This is a debate forum.

You abdicate the debate?
Your point is defeated, then.

If you cannot or will not demonstrate that any of your opinons are true. then we can say they might be false.

If your beliefs are false, then we should NOT consider them true.
You lose.

But I like you.

So I have no issues with you or any other person.

That's great. GOOD.
I like you too. I have nothing against you, either.

But you lost the debate so far.

Just showing you what's really IN there, in the scriptures, and also knowing that it's not just "you" listening just like it wasn't just the Pharisees above that Jesus was "talking to."

That's your claim. If you can't back it up with facts, I'll ignore your special and personal interpretations as I would any unfounded OPINIONS.

You fail to demonstrate that what you say is true.
You've failed the debate so far.

Are you conceding defeat, or do you wish to continue?

Enjoy the drama. You have your part to play regardless of what you "believe."

I don't call this a drama. I call this a debate.
You lost the debate so far by abdicating.

Maybe this is dramatic to you.