Did Jesus commit suicide?

[sarabellum]

As I browsed through a very interesting OP about the "morality of suicide" I was struck with a thought....
Did Jesus commit suicide.....

At first this idea wasn't slated to be an OP for a number of reasons...
Part of me thought it might seem uncivil....
or offensive....
to some...

I try not to do that....

But my internal conversation relating to my idea has proven to be fruitful and thought provoking so I decided to let her rip....

First of all it occurs to me that I don't know where to draw the line on suicide....
Is there such thing as a moral suicide....
What constitutes a suicide....
Is suicide by cop techniqly a suicide...
Does mental illness negate ones copability in Gods eye for committing suicide...

People commit suicide for many reasons, pain, depression, feeling to good (manic state) high on drugs, financial gain for their family, or they perceive it is for the better good.....

A suicide mission....
Sacrificing ones self for the greater good...
Is this a suicide?
If you know an action will lead to your demise is this taking ones life?

At first I was tempted to put Jesus mission on earth in this category....
Which is to say that the plan was for Jesus to come to earth and die to fix an imbalance that threatened the occupants of earth...

Do suicide bombers actually see there actions as a self termination or does the divine back story, this idea about the need to sacrifice oneself for the greater good, give them an out....


Anyway, basic point, I'm not really sure what constitutes a suicide.....
Part of me sees the logic behind the idea that killing oneself regardless of the perceived need is just that, killing oneself....

Further contemplation along these lines gave birth to a new idea....

Jesus's acts on the earth didn't qualify as a suicide mission...
It was a suicide by cop...
Here's my logic....

I'm on a nuclear submarine....
Something has happened to the reactor....
It is overheating and soon we will all die....
We have to do a manual shut down to survive, only problem being that the room with the off switch is filled with lethal levels of radiation and heat...
I voulenter to die, saving everyone....
Is this a suicide?
Maybe not......

But if it turned out that there was two ways to save the ship, say the path that led to my destruction or a newly discovered way of saving us that only envolved pushing a button and ejecting the core.....
If I still choose the path that leads to my destruction, the suicide mission over the logically way of solving ones problem, is this a suicide....

To me Jesus story falls under this category....

Jesus, if the stories are true, knew he was sent to die....
He could see the future knowing full well that certain actions would lead to his death....
He knew who would betray him...
He decided to sacrifice himself for us....

Jesus is also omnipotent...
Why not just eject the core...
Surely your self termination wasn't the only means to right the sinking ship of humanity.....
Why not just replace yourself with a life like copy on the day of your sacrifice...
A divine copy that would achieve the same salvation benefit but not lead to your death....

Additional can a man kill a God....
Can crucifiction kill a God...
How long does that take....

If Jesus was God would any amount of poking and prodding bring about his death...
If he was omnipotent it seems like you could theoretically pearce his side from now till the cows came home and not bring about his death...
Or did christ choose to self terminate....
Letting go of his spirit....

Otherwise it was a pretty quick for a crucifiction.....

Anyway thats about it......
Answer one or all....

Or none...

P.S. I still have not been able to save to a draft and often time my spelling errors don't show up on the spell check, and I'm in a hurry...
For the spelling errors I apologize....
(Lets face it I'm not that smart)

[Board]

I'm claiming that he knew he was going to be killed for his stance of human rights. I also provided an excerpt of an article wherein a companion of his was quoted as having heard Martin Luther King say precisely that he would be killed just as John F. Kennedy was killed.

Guessing how you will die and knowing the time and place of your death are two completely different things.

Yes, it is historical and it gets everything right. Do you care to challenge any particular portion of the New Testament.

Everything right huh? I challenge that AND that you can show any of the New Testament to be factual. Most of the authors are unknown or guesses mixed with forgeries. They get several things wrong... but then you will rely on tradition for support rather than historical studies.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html

And you failed at answer my question so I will quote them again.

Jesus knew he was going to die...

Correct.

or was he not God?

Jesus is, was and will always be God.

So he knew when, where, and how he was going to die. He went to his death willingly... He is God and was a sacrifice TO God... sounds pretty close to suicide to me.

[De Maria]

Guessing how you will die and knowing the time and place of your death are two completely different things.

The point is, that he knew he was risking his life for his cause. Thus, Dr. Martin Luther King can be described as a martyr.

Everything right huh? I challenge that

You must want us to be here for months. Yes, I believe everything in the Bible. I'm afraid I need you to provide something which you challenge because it is simply unreasonable to expect anyone to go through the entire Bible with detailed evidence of each verse.

AND that you can show any of the New Testament to be factual.

That's simple. Jerusalem still exists today. It is the place where much of events in the New Testament took place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

Most of the authors are unknown

I challenge this. Please provide your evidence.

or guesses mixed with forgeries.

And this. Please provide your evidence.

They get several things wrong...;

but then you will rely on tradition for support rather than historical studies.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html

Matthew and Luke give two contradictory genealogies for Joseph (Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38). They cannot even agree on who the father of Joseph was. Church apologists try to eliminate this discrepancy by suggesting that the genealogy in Luke is actually Mary's, even though Luke says explicitly that it is Joseph's genealogy (Luke 3:23). Christians have had problems reconciling the two genealogies since at least the early fourth century. It was then that Eusebius, a "Church Father," wrote in his The History of the Church, "each believer has been only too eager to dilate at length on these passages."

I'll just take one, the very first, because addressing each of the errors in this list would derail the thread:

A. THE GENEALOGIES OF JOSEPH

1. Matthew and Luke disagree

They don't actually. They are two separate perspectives.

Harmony between St. Matthew's and St. Luke's genealogy of Christ

The fourth series of St. Luke's list covers the period between Abraham and the creation of man; St. Matthew does not touch upon this time, so that there can be no question of any harmony. The third series of St. Luke agrees name for name with the first of St. Matthew; only the order of names is inverted. In this section the genealogies are rather identical than merely harmonious. In the first and second series, St. Luke gives David's descendants through his son Nathan, while St. Matthew enumerates in his second and third series David's descendants through Solomon. It is true that the First Gospel gives only twenty-eight names for this period, against the forty-two names of the Third Gospel; but it cannot be expected that two different lines of descendants should exhibit the same number of links for the period of a thousand years. Abstracting from the inspired character of the sources, one is disposed to regard the number given by the Third Evangelist as more in harmony with the length of time than the number of the First Gospel; but we have pointed out that St. Matthew consciously omitted a number of names in his genealogical list, in order to reduce them to the required multiple of seven.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm

There are difficulties, and they are explained in the same article. But there is no absolute proof that the genealogies contradict. Only that they come by different lineage and converge with Joseph.

And you failed at answer my question so I will quote them again.

Jesus knew he was going to die...

Correct.

or was he not God?

Jesus is, was and will always be God.

So he knew when, where, and how he was going to die. He went to his death willingly... He is God and was a sacrifice TO God... sounds pretty close to suicide to me.

That is your subjective interpretation of the evidence based upon your presuppositions. As I view the evidence, Jesus died to save us from our sins. Yes, He knew He was going to be killed by men who refused to believe in Him. But that is not suicide. That is sacrifice. Therefore, Jesus is the first Christian martyr.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Board]

Guessing how you will die and knowing the time and place of your death are two completely different things.

The point is, that he knew he was risking his life for his cause. Thus, Dr. Martin Luther King can be described as a martyr.

Correct.

Everything right huh? I challenge that

You must want us to be here for months. Yes, I believe everything in the Bible. I'm afraid I need you to provide something which you challenge because it is simply unreasonable to expect anyone to go through the entire Bible with detailed evidence of each verse.

AND that you can show any of the New Testament to be factual.

That's simple. Jerusalem still exists today. It is the place where much of events in the New Testament took place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

We are never going to agree. You base your interpretation of the Bible on the Dogma of the Catholic Church. I base mine on historians... to debate this from these two points of view is pointless.

And yes Jerusalem exists. Naming a place does not make it historical.

Most of the authors are unknown

I challenge this. Please provide your evidence.

or guesses mixed with forgeries.

And this. Please provide your evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

I'll just take one, the very first, because addressing each of the errors in this list would derail the thread:

There are difficulties, and they are explained in the same article. But there is no absolute proof that the genealogies contradict. Only that they come by different lineage and converge with Joseph.

Again we will never agree so long as you rest your belief on Church Tradition over fact.

That is your subjective interpretation of the evidence based upon your presuppositions. As I view the evidence, Jesus died to save us from our sins. Yes, He knew He was going to be killed by men who refused to believe in Him. But that is not suicide. That is sacrifice. Therefore, Jesus is the first Christian martyr.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Lets try this again...

God created everything and knows the future.
God created Man.
Man killed Jesus.
God knew every detail surrounding Jesus' death.
Jesus is God.
Jesus was a sacrifice to God.
Jesus was a sacrifice to himself.

So... He sacrificed himself to himself and was killed by his own creation. Again... sounds a lot like suicide... or was he not God?

[sarabellum]

On top of the idea that I believe Board is expressing is that it doesn't logically follow that sacrifice would be the only option to achieve mankinds salvation...

It was a specific path chosen by a God that is omnipotent and can achieve any goal in any fashion?

[De Maria]

We are never going to agree.

I'm just here to explain the reasons for my faith. Whether anyone here agrees with me or not is besides the point.

You base your interpretation of the Bible on the Dogma of the Catholic Church. I base mine on historians... to debate this from these two points of view is pointless.

Lol! If the assumption is that you are trying to convert me or I you, then I agree.

But I'm not here to convert you. I'm simply here to present my ideas so that others may consider them and come to faith in God.

And yes Jerusalem exists. Naming a place does not make it historical.

Its existence is a fact mentioned in Scripture which can be verified by many independent and objective means.

Most of the authors are unknown

I challenge this. Please provide your evidence.

or guesses mixed with forgeries.

And this. Please provide your evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

Debate by web link?

Here's the rebuttal:
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/bo ... ospels.pdf

I'll just take one, the very first, because addressing each of the errors in this list would derail the thread:

There are difficulties, and they are explained in the same article. But there is no absolute proof that the genealogies contradict. Only that they come by different lineage and converge with Joseph.

Again we will never agree so long as you rest your belief on Church Tradition over fact.

This particular tradition explains the apparent discrepancy.

That is your subjective interpretation of the evidence based upon your presuppositions. As I view the evidence, Jesus died to save us from our sins. Yes, He knew He was going to be killed by men who refused to believe in Him. But that is not suicide. That is sacrifice. Therefore, Jesus is the first Christian martyr.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Lets try this again...

Ok

God created everything and knows the future.
God created Man.
Man killed Jesus.
God knew every detail surrounding Jesus' death.
Jesus is God.
Jesus was a sacrifice to God.
Jesus was a sacrifice to himself.

There are three Divine Persons in One God. Jesus, the Son of the Father, offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father for the salvation of our souls.

Essentially, what He did is let mankind off the hook. The death of the Testator ends the Covenant. God died on the Cross therefore the Old Testament was fulfilled and the promises needed to be paid.

Testament:
2nd definition:
will: a legal document declaring a person's wishes regarding the disposal of their property when they die
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

So... He sacrificed himself to himself and was killed by his own creation. Again... sounds a lot like suicide... or was he not God?

Again, that is your interpretation of the evidence. Mine agrees with the teaching of the Church. Jesus Christ knew that He would suffer and be killed:
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

And He layed down His life for those He loved:
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Therefore, Jesus is the first Christian martyr.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[JehovahsWitness]

Police defined victim precipitated homicide as "an incident in which an individual bent on self-destruction, engages in life threatening and criminal behavior to force law enforcement officers to kill them." It is in this sense that the question is posed. Did the character of Jesus as outlined in the New Testament, act in such a way as to guarantee his own execution?

Was Jesus "bent on self destruction"

While there is no doubt Jesus' teachings and actions angered the religious establishment he did nothing that was in actual fact anyway near deserving of death. Pilate at his trial announced that he found nothing "deserving" of death as far as the Roman law is concerned and Jesus never actually broke any of the Jewish national laws. Had he been "bend on self destruction" it would have been evident in his flagrantly breaking laws that would have incurred the death penelty.

For much of his ministry Jesus was extremely discrete, traveling backroads, and charging people not to publicise his miracles (something that would not only impinge his being able to freely move about the territory but would no doubt have attracted the attention of those determined to see him dead). John gives the account of Jesus physically hiding to avoid being stoned by religious fanatics - hardly the actions of someone "bent" on provoking actions that would result in his early demise (see John 8:59).

Did Jesus engage in " engages in life threatening" behaviour?

Early in the account of his life the gospel's report Jesus being invited to throw himself from a great height, something which would normally incur certain death; Jesus firmly declined. His ministry is marked by a regard for the value of the life he was given and he took reasonable measures to protect it.

Did Jesus engage in "criminal behavior to force law enforcement officers to kill [him]"?

As stated above, at no time did Jesus break any civic or religious laws and certainly did nothing that would "force" his own death. While it is true Jesus had little regard for religious traditions he saw as transgressing the written law, none of his actions could be said to provoke legitimate sanction. Even at the illegal night trial of the Sanhedrian on the last night of his life, Jesus' silence meant he did not incriminate himself and when he did finally make an affirmative statement, it was not in fact confirming blasphemy as charged.

So in conclusion if the question under discussion is were Jesus actions "self destructive"", life threatening" or "criminal" then the answer on all counts would be no.

[Frankly]

An Interesting question..

Firstly Jesus would have been looking at things somewhat differently to others- aware no doubt of the significance of "Time" - and human behavior - so it would be fair to say that he would have been able to anticipate and/or plan his best contribution to God and humanity- proof that this was achieved is evident in the date 2011 AD- our measure of "Time"

Every building takes time in its construction and he has provided us with that foundation or cornerstone to work with- it is clear that we are evolving in many ways- in the last 200years or less we (as a species) have evolved from horse and cart to space technology- resultant from the "Culturing"(takes Time) of various skills and abilities.

I can see where your question arises from but there are rather a lot of considerations that need to be examined- death by cop is usually resultant from the actions of one individual whereas His death was "orchestrated" displaying Cultured "Herd" behavior rather than an individuals. Could that "Herd" behavior have been anticipated?- absolutely... but was it suicide or more about revealing aspects of Herd behavior? - as a teacher I suspect that the multitude of considerations (greater picture) outweighed the consequences of "making a run for it" so a very brave action indeed to stay and remain peaceful in the face of such overwhelming adversity.

You are probably aware that Jesus did not really want to be worshiped and that he referred to His God as Father - So unless I am wrong he never actually referred to himself as being a "God" which is very interesting

I suspect that if one were actually to consider building Gods Church that it would require a whole different Culture and that the foundations for that Culture are found in scripture
Building is somewhat different to Preaching in that a different form of commitment is required and the Building should not need the Architect on hand for the structure to prevail

I am not a religious bloke- But I do see a lot of building materials within some of the religions- for example Jehovah Witness anticipates a time where the other species of Animals have a place in that church- this I understand as "Love thy neighbor" and was part of the Commandments - We make all sorts of excuses for not obeying or recognizing the importance of this commandment but it is a really important one - Also important is honour (adherence to that which is right...)

If Jesus was God would any amount of poking and prodding bring about his death...
If he was omnipotent it seems like you could theoretically pearce his side from now till the cows came home and not bring about his death...
Or did christ choose to self terminate....
Letting go of his spirit....

Otherwise it was a pretty quick for a crucifiction.....

This is an ideal site to witness the continuation of that poking and prodding- But also evidence of that "Omnipotence" as it is still happening after all this "Time"-
It is possibly just our expectations that can sometimes be unrealistic.

Lessons from a good teacher outlast that teachers physical presence

[100%atheist]

As I browsed through a very interesting OP about the "morality of suicide" I was struck with a thought....
Did Jesus commit suicide.....

I don't think this is exactly correct, ... BUT, did you read "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ"? According to Jesus, God drove him to the death in order to justify the centuries of the dark age and suffering of billions of people.

[EasternSP]

One of the points that is conspicuously missing from this discussion is the "man" factor.
In a complete vacume of God, the death of Jesus would really be a point in futility.
When you place man in the picture, now there is a reason for the death of Christ, diecide.
Stripped of the surrounding circumstances, it does lower the purpose of the death of Christ to a self pitying suicide.
That isn't the case though as it was fourtold in Gen: 3:16. As I have learned, the passage referrs to what Christ did to overcome sin for mankind.

[knutz]

He didn't commit suicide anymore than the Rev. ML King did, although Jesus did know his fate.

Nonsense. MLK did not know he was going to be assassinated.

Yes, he did.

On the day that John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Coulton remembers King saying as he watched the television, "That's the way I'm going to go.'"

"He just knew it, and he felt it. That's the way he was going to go," said Coulton.

King was assassinated five years later on April 4, 1968.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/01/15/50 ... r-king-jr/

By definition, martyrs know they are putting their life in danger for their cause:
A martyr (Greek: μά�τυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μά�τυ�-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief or cause, usually religious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr

Jesus knew he was going to die... or was he not God? Did he not know how things would unfold? MLK knew he was a protagonist and a target definitely but he did not know the time or the place. Jesus on the other hand would have or you cannot claim him to be God.

Or wait... did God send him without the knowledge so in human form he didn't know... but then he is God and would have known before coming... but then he made himself forget... but then...

You can justify anything you like but it does not make the myth any more rational.

Its not a myth. It is documented history.

I thought so too, but in this very forum I read a debate stating that the Roman document that noted Jesus' crucifixion was written around 400AD, presumably by a Christian. I googled it and found accounts that said, no it was 180AD etc.

There is no documented fact that Jesus lived, died or was resurrected. Even the "Shroud of Turin" cannot be used for that - Jesus most likely was clean shaven. Fashion of the day. And the shroud shows a beard.