Are there any prophecies in the Bible?

[notachance]

It seems to me that the go-to "proof" that the Bible is divinely inspired are prophecies.

So I was hoping that somebody would give me an example of a prophecy that might prove the supernatural nature of the Bible.

I will write below a few criteria that I think any alleged prophecy must meet in order to qualify as "evidence of supernatural nature of the Bible"

1) The prophecy must have been demonstrably written down before the event it predicts.
A prophecy is a statement about the future, not about the past.

For example, if I wrote today, in 2011, "I hereby make the prophecy that in 2008, Barack Obama will be elected President of the United States", that is NOT a prophecy, because I'm "predicting" an event that actually already happened.

Similarly, if a 350 AD manuscript (for example the Codex Sinaiticus) talked about some battle that took place in 600BC, that wouldn't be a prediction, it would be a description of something that happened almost 1000 years earlier.

2) A prophecy must have demonstrably actually been made
An example of scenario that would NOT count as a valid prophecy would one where I write down today "10 years before he died, John Lennon told an anonymous author that he would die by being shot in the head". There is no way of verifying that John Lennon ever said that, so it's not a valid prophecy.

3) A predicted event must be reliably documented.
For example, if I said "I predict that tonight I will dream about eating ice cream" and then the next day I say "The prophecy came true! I did dream about ice cream", that would not be an accurate prophecy because it was not reliably documented. Nobody other than me knows if it's actually true that I dreamed about ice-cream.

4) A prophecy must be specific enough that it cannot be adaptable to multiple scenarios that are somewhat likely to happen eventually.
For example if I wrote "There will be a war between Christians and Muslims in the next 100 years", then I'm not making a supernatural prophecy, just an educated guess given the nature of our international relations. In order for it to even be considered as a prophecy, it would have to be something like "On March 2nd 2076, the United States will begin a campaign of drone attacks in Iran, starting with a 3:30 am raid on a military base 20 miles north of Tehran".

Another example of what would not be a prophecy would be something like "the twin towers that collapsed on 9-11 will eventually be rebuilt"

5) In order for a prophecy to be considered proof of the supernatural nature of the Bible, there has to be no other reasonable way to explaining it than by supernatural means.
If you cannot prove that purely natural explanations (chance? self-fulfilling prophecy, forgery) truly cannot account for the prophecy, then your belief in the supernatural cause of the prophecy is no more than a faith statement, and if you are using that do justify your faith, you're engaging in circular logic ("I believe in this baseless claim, because it's supported by another baseless claim").

6) An accurate prophecy cannot be considered evidence of the supernatural if it is surrounded by inaccurate prophecies.
For example if I wrote today the following statements:
"Obama will be elected in 2012"
"Pawlenty will be elected in 2012"
"Romney will be elected in 2012"
"Palin will be elected in 2012"
"Gingrich will be elected in 2012"

And one of them turned out to be correct, that would prove nothing!

7) A prophecy can only be considered evidence of the supernatural if it predicts something that is extremely unlikely.
For example this chart shows that over the last 117 years, in Seattle it has rained on August 2nd 13 times. That means that there is 11.1% chance that it will rain in Seattle on August 2nd of any given year. So if I wrote the prophecy that "On Aug 2nd 2154 it will rain in Seattle", that would be an accurate prediction, but nonetheless not evidence of supernatural powers, simply evidence of the statistical fact that I had a 11.1% chance to be right.

8) The prophecy cannot be an expression of something that many people want to see happen, because the people's will is what drives the prophecy to be fulfilled in that case, and not a supernatural power.
For example, if Martin Luther King had said "I predict that one day a black man will be US President", that would not be the kind of prediction that would prove the supernatural, because in saying that, MLK would just be verbalizing a wish that was to some degree shared by millions of blacks and whites alike. It was simple social pressure from these millions that eventually caused the prophecy to be "fulfilled". If Hillary Clinton said "One day a woman will be President" she will, by saying it, inspire people to try to make that happen. It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It's almost 3am and I am a little tired. I may have to add additional bullet points later. It may also be that there is some redundancy, and that the list could be condensed while retaining it's purpose. But I think this is a good start.

Here are my two questions:

1) Do you agree that the requirements above are reasonable, if not explain why not

2) Can you think of any Bible prophecy that meets the requirements above?

(please don't link or quote 100 different prophecies, and don't then leave it to me to look them all up and debunk them all. Start by quoting the SINGLE MOST CONCLUSIVE example of a prophecy, and we can talk about that. Once we've debated it, we can move on to additional examples)

[Kuan]

I like what you said sarabellum. Revelations is an interesting book, whether you believe it or not. What we need to worry about is not what the book says though but what is actually going on in our present. If revelations is true, then there is no avoiding it.

I agree...

This does not change the fact that Revelations may be a "potentially" accurate prophecy?

No, there are some areas that do match up with what is going on in this world at the moment. So I have no problem with it being a potentially accurate prophecy.

[sarabellum]

I like what you said sarabellum. Revelations is an interesting book, whether you believe it or not. What we need to worry about is not what the book says though but what is actually going on in our present. If revelations is true, then there is no avoiding it.

I agree...

This does not change the fact that Revelations may be a "potentially" accurate prophecy?

No, there are some areas that do match up with what is going on in this world at the moment. So I have no problem with it being a potentially accurate prophecy.

If an event hasn't occurred yet how can you say it is inaccurate?

Dope! one edit!

[Kuan]

I like what you said sarabellum. Revelations is an interesting book, whether you believe it or not. What we need to worry about is not what the book says though but what is actually going on in our present. If revelations is true, then there is no avoiding it.

I agree...

This does not change the fact that Revelations may be a "potentially" accurate prophecy?

No, there are some areas that do match up with what is going on in this world at the moment. So I have no problem with it being a potentially accurate prophecy.

If an event has occurred yet how can you say it is inaccurate?

I was about to make a thread on it. Ill post it here when im done.

[Kuan]

Here is the new thread!

Thread

[sarabellum]

I have developed a strategy...

I will attempt to bore notachance to death with questions...

Question 2...

What the heck are we going to do with Daniel?

Perhaps Daniel contains accurate prophecys...

Unfortunately the wording is a mess....
I can not make heads or tails of it...

For instance...

The seventy weeks prophecy?
It could not be worded any worse...
What an umbrella...
Vague and visionary...

Hard to work with...
Hard to understand...

Particularly vulnerable to misinterpretation...
and manipulation...(IMO)

Yet it is potentially spot on...
Would you agree?

Vagueness sucks...
As does a prophecys ability to be manipulated after the fact...

It's cause for alarm...

But not out right dismissal...

A statement can be both vaguely worded, retrofitable and totally accurate...

How do we deal with prophecys that involve a little reading between the lines...
Or are communicated in a strange fashion?

Can we dismiss them?

Probably not...

[notachance]

Okay I showed up...

Take it easy on me....

I've been bone n up on my knowledge of biblical prophecys...(Lota cool websites out their)

But basically I know squat...

Anyway...
I am going in to this with the idea that "prophecys" in theory are possible...

Which brings me to a question...

It seems by default that some prophecys are potentially true or are in the process of being fulfilled...

For instance...

Regarding the "end times"...(revelations)

It is a scientific fact that life on earth will someday end...
Perhaps this planet will be swallowed by the sun...
Killed off by a meteor...
Death by super virus..

Or maybe we will simply blow ourselves up...
Consumed in a massive war...

Either way it's coming...

Perhaps Revelations is an attempt to describe our eventual demise...
A prophecy about the end of days...

Specific ideas found in Revelations can be compared to our scientific hypothesis relating to the end of days...

It talks of destruction by fire? (bombs)
An anti-christ figure? (Perhaps a powerful political figure plays a role)
Pestilence and disease are mentioned....(Super virus?)
Famine?

So revelations is "potentially" true....(the end will come)
&
May follow a logical scenario of what the end of days would look like?
(Depending on your interpretation..)

Revelations may in fact be non-verifiable...

Meaning...
If the "event" ever takes place (the end of mankind) there is by definition no one left to note that the prophecy was in fact accurate...

Can we factor Revelations out as inaccurate?

I would say no...

What do you think?
How should prophecys of the future be handled?
Or non-verifiable prophecys?

(Authors prayer.... Help me out people! I have a feeling I am about to get my butt handed to me! Please PM me with a devastating argument that will vanquish my opponent )

Heya Sarabellum! Thanks for joining the party! You've got a deal, I will go easy on you!

So, first of all, your example violates rules 4 and 7 in my OP. It's not specific enough to be considered a prophecy. It just says the world will end at some point (so much so that hundreds have tried to figure out the day of the Rapture and failed - the next one is coming on May 21st apparently). Secondly it's describing something that is practically guaranteed to eventually happen. Everything ends. It doesn't take magical powers to figure out that humanity and planet earth, just like everything else, will eventually end.

You've actually debunked your argument yourself, without even realizing it.

You wrote

It is a scientific fact that life on earth will someday end...

You are correct about that. It's 100% certain that life on earth will end.

Anybody can see the inevitability of that. It's not about our scientific knowledge. It's self evident to anybody with half a brain that EVERYTHING ENDS and NOTHING LASTS FOREVER, including life on earth.

So the stuff in Revelations is not a prophecy, it's a statement of the obvious!

It's like if I said "I hereby make the prophecy that this winter it will snow in Iceland!" or "I hereby make the prophecy that it will rain in the Amazon Rainforest" Duh! Everybody knows that. Not only it doesn't take supernatural powers to "predict" that, it doesn't even take above average intelligence! It's called Iceland for crying out loud! It's called the RAIN forest!

You wrote

So revelations is "potentially" true....(the end will come)

It's not just "potentially" true that and end will come. It's inevitable. It's inescapable. Which is precisely why the Revelation claims are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of a prophecy.

A prophecy is when you predict something that is uncertain.

If you "predict" something that is 100% certain, it's not a prophecy, it's a description of the inevitable.

It doesn't take supernatural powers to predict the inevitable. All it takes is a non-lobotomized brain and a body temperature somewhere in the 90'. You could probably teach a smart dolphin to predict the inevitable!

"I predict that tomorrow morning the sun will rise in the east". See what I mean?

You ask

Can we factor Revelations out as inaccurate?

Absolutely not. The Revelation claim that the world will end is not inaccurate. It's, to the best of my knowledge, 100% accurate.

But it's not a prophecy. It's a statement of the obvious.

Alright. Thanks for joining in on the fun. Let me know if you have any other prophecy you'd wanna run by me!

Thanks again,
Notachance

[notachance]

I have developed a strategy...

I will attempt to bore notachance to death with questions...

Question 2...

What the heck are we going to do with Daniel?

Perhaps Daniel contains accurate prophecys...

Unfortunately the wording is a mess....
I can not make heads or tails of it...

For instance...

The seventy weeks prophecy?
It could not be worded any worse...
What an umbrella...
Vague and visionary...

Hard to work with...
Hard to understand...

Particularly vulnerable to misinterpretation...
and manipulation...(IMO)

Yet it is potentially spot on...
Would you agree?

Vagueness sucks...
As does a prophecys ability to be manipulated after the fact...

It's cause for alarm...

But not out right dismissal...

A statement can be both vaguely worded, retrofitable and totally accurate...

How do we deal with prophecys that involve a little reading between the lines...
Or are communicated in a strange fashion?

Can we dismiss them?

Probably not...

eh eh very funny.

I will address just one thing you said: "A statement can be both vaguely worded, retrofitable and totally accurate..."

That is true.

Here's the thing. It's not just true of statements in the Bible. You could say that about everything Nostradamus said, you could say that about Scientology literature, you could say that about last week's issue of TV Guide.

It's PRECISELY because of the problem of unreliability and impossibility to verify, that alleged prophecies fall short of being adequate evidence of the supernatural.

Imagine a schizophrenic heroin addict with a long criminal record and a history of mental illness in his family were to testify in court that Mother Teresa was secretly a serial killer who cannibalized babies while they were still alive.

It's possible that the schizophrenic heroin addict with a long criminal record and a history of mental illness is 100% accurate in his testimony. It's possible. It's not impossible.

But you'd be CRAZY to put Mother Teresa in jail, if the only evidence of her guilt is the word of a schizophrenic heroin addict with a long criminal record and a history of mental illness

Similarly it's possible that Jonah survived in the stomach of a whale for 3 days, it's possible that the entire world was flooded and then the billions of cubic miles of water necessary to make that happen vanished. It's possible that Balaam literally had a talking donkey. It's possible that 3 days after Jesus was killed, there was a huge zombie invasion in Jerusalem. It's all possible. (ask me for Bible quotes if you don't know what I'm referring to)

But you'd be CRAZY to believe it just because some bronze age barbarians scribbled about it on sheep skin during their spare time from killing each other and raping each other's women.

[notachance]

If an event hasn't occurred yet how can you say it is inaccurate?

If an event hasn't occurred yet, how can you say it is accurate?

Furthermore, how can you say that it's so accurate that it proves your supernatural powers?

That's like saying "I predict that the Giants will win the 2098 Superbowl. Well it's not the year 2098 yet, so until then you can't disprove that I am right, so let's assume I am right, and that therefore I have magical powers"

[notachance]

There are some areas [of revelations] that do match up with what is going on in this world at the moment. So I have no problem with it being a potentially accurate prophecy.

Which areas are you talking about, and in what way do they match up with current world events?

[sarabellum]

Okay I showed up...

Take it easy on me....

I've been bone n up on my knowledge of biblical prophecys...(Lota cool websites out their)

But basically I know squat...

Anyway...
I am going in to this with the idea that "prophecys" in theory are possible...

Which brings me to a question...

It seems by default that some prophecys are potentially true or are in the process of being fulfilled...

For instance...

Regarding the "end times"...(revelations)

It is a scientific fact that life on earth will someday end...
Perhaps this planet will be swallowed by the sun...
Killed off by a meteor...
Death by super virus..

Or maybe we will simply blow ourselves up...
Consumed in a massive war...

Either way it's coming...

Perhaps Revelations is an attempt to describe our eventual demise...
A prophecy about the end of days...

Specific ideas found in Revelations can be compared to our scientific hypothesis relating to the end of days...

It talks of destruction by fire? (bombs)
An anti-christ figure? (Perhaps a powerful political figure plays a role)
Pestilence and disease are mentioned....(Super virus?)
Famine?

So revelations is "potentially" true....(the end will come)
&
May follow a logical scenario of what the end of days would look like?
(Depending on your interpretation..)

Revelations may in fact be non-verifiable...

Meaning...
If the "event" ever takes place (the end of mankind) there is by definition no one left to note that the prophecy was in fact accurate...

Can we factor Revelations out as inaccurate?

I would say no...

What do you think?
How should prophecys of the future be handled?
Or non-verifiable prophecys?

(Authors prayer.... Help me out people! I have a feeling I am about to get my butt handed to me! Please PM me with a devastating argument that will vanquish my opponent )

Heya Sarabellum! Thanks for joining the party! You've got a deal, I will go easy on you!

So, first of all, your example violates rules 4 and 7 in my OP. It's not specific enough to be considered a prophecy. It just says the world will end at some point (so much so that hundreds have tried to figure out the day of the Rapture and failed - the next one is coming on May 21st apparently). Secondly it's describing something that is practically guaranteed to eventually happen. Everything ends. It doesn't take magical powers to figure out that humanity and planet earth, just like everything else, will eventually end.

You've actually debunked your argument yourself, without even realizing it.

You wrote

It is a scientific fact that life on earth will someday end...

You are correct about that. It's 100% certain that life on earth will end.

Anybody can see the inevitability of that. It's not about our scientific knowledge. It's self evident to anybody with half a brain that EVERYTHING ENDS and NOTHING LASTS FOREVER, including life on earth.

So the stuff in Revelations is not a prophecy, it's a statement of the obvious!

It's like if I said "I hereby make the prophecy that this winter it will snow in Iceland!" or "I hereby make the prophecy that it will rain in the Amazon Rainforest" Duh! Everybody knows that. Not only it doesn't take supernatural powers to "predict" that, it doesn't even take above average intelligence! It's called Iceland for crying out loud! It's called the RAIN forest!

You wrote

So revelations is "potentially" true....(the end will come)

It's not just "potentially" true that and end will come. It's inevitable. It's inescapable. Which is precisely why the Revelation claims are THE EXACT OPPOSITE of a prophecy.

A prophecy is when you predict something that is uncertain.

If you "predict" something that is 100% certain, it's not a prophecy, it's a description of the inevitable.

It doesn't take supernatural powers to predict the inevitable. All it takes is a non-lobotomized brain and a body temperature somewhere in the 90'. You could probably teach a smart dolphin to predict the inevitable!

"I predict that tomorrow morning the sun will rise in the east". See what I mean?

You ask

Can we factor Revelations out as inaccurate?

Absolutely not. The Revelation claim that the world will end is not inaccurate. It's, to the best of my knowledge, 100% accurate.

But it's not a prophecy. It's a statement of the obvious.

Alright. Thanks for joining in on the fun. Let me know if you have any other prophecy you'd wanna run by me!

Thanks again,
Notachance

I think that your rules are biased...
In that...
If I allow for the possibility that prophecy is possible....
Who's to say what it should look like...

Are there rules?

It seems like these are your wishes...

I see no reason to assume that a prophecy needs to follow any format...

It only needs to be accurate and true...
That is the only rule?

A prophecy in theory could violate all of your rules....

As long as the prophecy turns out to be true, it is legit?

On a side note yes the world will end...
Revelations gives specific details...
Which have not happened yet...

Aren't you shutting down the debate a little soon?
Perhaps Revelations is accurate?
How do we know?

edit..