Does Christianity discriminate against women?

[Confused]

From Another thread.

Is there any equality offered to women in Christian scripture? Or are we simply "vessels" to be used to carry the seed of men? Does Christian scripture simply discriminate against women or is there some obscure scripture that offers women something equal to men?

[bjs]

bjs wrote:

The story of Lilith comes from Jewish folklore, not Genesis. The idea of Lilith as Adam's first wife did not come around until the Alphabet of Ben Sira, sometime between the 8th and 10th century AD. The story has never been considered authoritative (or true) among Christians, and in the last century Lilith has gotten far more play in secular fiction than in Christian circles.

I am well aware that the story of Lilith is included in Jewish folklore, and that Christians "claim" that it is not now included in the Bible, although the two very different surviving stories of the creation of the first woman in Genesis do very strongly suggest and support it to any unbiased reader. The argument by some Christians that one story is simply an elaboration of the other suggests to me that they have never actually read the Bible.

My story of Lilith is a consensus over a period of years from literally dozens of sources. After all, we are talking about legend, myth, superstition and folklore here, and THAT INCLUDES YOUR BIBLE!

As for what Christians believe, please don't think that because I am a nonbeliever, that means I am uninformed! In addition to some academic research, I have encountered many Christians during a long life and have heard many strange and often shocking beliefs. I respect your own interpretation, but my interpretation is as good as yours, thank you!

John

I dont doubt that you have done your research, but the idea that the character of Lilith had any influence on Genesis is an unfounded anachronism.

Even if we take the latest possible date for the writing of Genesis and the earliest possible date for someone to associate Lilith with Adam and Eve, it would still be more than 1,000 years after the writing of Genesis before anyone would suggest that Lilith was Adams first wife.

While there are two separate parts to the creation story in Genesis, the timeline does not allow for Lilith to have been a part of either one of them.

[bjs]

Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the womans sake, but woman for the mans sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

Notice again, the discrimination that Paul commands, is justified by the creation. He intended this to be universal, not just a local suggestion.

This probably the strongest argument for gender bias in the scriptures, but I think that how we view it depends on where we put our focus. If we bold verses 7 and 8, as McCulloch did, then the focus is male superiority.

However, we could bold verses 11 and 12, which say, Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. This appears far more egalitarian.

Regardless, I find that the passage is centrally about submission to God in all things, not submission to another person.

Depends on where we put our focus? Wow! That means that Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is a glorious humanitarian document. Let's start with an extract from one of Hitler's speeches in which he expresses his Christian compassion for the poor. What do you find is the central Christian message here?

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited (Adolf Hitler, April, 1922)

The mention of gender roles is a minor side note in First Corinthians. The letter on the whole is about redemption in Christ and church unity. The entire passage is quoted in the text of this post, so we are discussing the meaning of a single paragraph.

On the other hand, you have taken a passage out of context from Mein Kampf to make a point that goes against most of what Hitler was writing about.

The comparison to Hitler is false and bordering on the offensive.

[JohnPaul]

bjs wrote:

The story of Lilith comes from Jewish folklore, not Genesis. The idea of Lilith as Adam's first wife did not come around until the Alphabet of Ben Sira, sometime between the 8th and 10th century AD. The story has never been considered authoritative (or true) among Christians, and in the last century Lilith has gotten far more play in secular fiction than in Christian circles.

I am well aware that the story of Lilith is included in Jewish folklore, and that Christians "claim" that it is not now included in the Bible, although the two very different surviving stories of the creation of the first woman in Genesis do very strongly suggest and support it to any unbiased reader. The argument by some Christians that one story is simply an elaboration of the other suggests to me that they have never actually read the Bible.

My story of Lilith is a consensus over a period of years from literally dozens of sources. After all, we are talking about legend, myth, superstition and folklore here, and THAT INCLUDES YOUR BIBLE!

As for what Christians believe, please don't think that because I am a nonbeliever, that means I am uninformed! In addition to some academic research, I have encountered many Christians during a long life and have heard many strange and often shocking beliefs. I respect your own interpretation, but my interpretation is as good as yours, thank you!

John

I dont doubt that you have done your research, but the idea that the character of Lilith had any influence on Genesis is an unfounded anachronism.

Even if we take the latest possible date for the writing of Genesis and the earliest possible date for someone to associate Lilith with Adam and Eve, it would still be more than 1,000 years after the writing of Genesis before anyone would suggest that Lilith was Adams first wife.

While there are two separate parts to the creation story in Genesis, the timeline does not allow for Lilith to have been a part of either one of them.

Hello, bjs,

First let me say that, although I am fascinated by the legend of Lilith, anything I say about her beyond the legend itself is pure speculation on my part.

I agree that medieval Jewish folklore could not have influenced the writing of Genesis, but I believe the cause/effect is the other way around. Genesis influenced Jewish folklore. Of course, giving a name to the first woman described in Genesis 1:27 was a little much, but the idea of two different women described in Genesis is very clear to me, and would have been equally clear and obvious to medieval Jews, who simply gave her a name and built a story around her. I think it is a very good story, better than any found in the Bible.

Of course, the real explanation for the two different stories in Genesis is that Genesis is the work of at least 3 and perhaps as many as 5 different authors, writing at different times and places. The individual pieces were stitched together long before the Bible was compiled in the 4th century. Also, the compilers of the Bible discarded much more material than they included, and it is entirely possible that more was written about the first woman/women than the compilers saw fit to include. I know I am being realistic here, which does not go over well with Christians!

Much of the Bible mythology, such as the Garden of Eden and the Flood, came from Babylon and was picked up by the Hebrews during the century of Babylonian captivity. The ancient Sumerians, predecessors of the Babylonians, had stories of some minor female demons, called Lilitu I believe. Who knows where the name Lilith came from? The Lilitu are mentioned in Isaiah, where he poetically describes the desolation he wishes on Babylon, and has nothing to do with Lilith as the first wife of Adam.

A 4000-year-old Sumerian statue, often mistaken for Ishtar, shows Lilith as a naked woman with small wings and birdlike taloned feet, standing with two hyenas lying at her feet and two large owls standing beside her. The wings are too small for her to actually fly, unless like the bumblebee, she defies engineering principles. I prefer to imagine her with large, more dignified bat-like wings. The hyenas and owls are Lilith's special animals because they helped her in the wilderness after her escape from Eden.

Anyway, I like the story of Lilith and will continue to preach it. Incidentally, in some versions of the story, Lilith ends up coupled with Lucifer because of the similarity of their proud and rebellious natures. I did not mention this before, because it would immediately bring screams of Witchcraft and Devil Worship. Anyway, I like the image of Lilith and Lucifer flying around together during storms, harassing the Sons of Adam!

John

[Cain]

Aside from the correlations some make between the Sumerian Demon Lilitu and Lilith, I believe it was the Judaic faith that created this Lilith myth:

This revisionist view of Lilith is based primarily on a work called the Alphabet of Ben Sira, which portrays Lilith as Adam's first wife who was rejected because she wanted to be on top during sexual intercourse. Lilith was replaced with Eve, a more submissive second wife.

Many modern commentators describe this as part of the Talmud or midrash, or at least a traditional Jewish source, and claim that this story reflects the traditional rabbinical understanding of the roles of men and women. Feminists reject the negative characterization of Lilith's actions in this story. They claim Lilith was a hero who was demonized by male-chauvinist rabbis who did not want women to have any sexual power.

In Jewish folklore, Lilith is the name of Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. She left Adam after she refused to become subservient to Adam and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael. Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism. Her story was greatly developed, during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism

[JohnPaul]

Aside from the correlations some make between the Sumerian Demon Lilitu and Lilith, I believe it was the Judaic faith that created this Lilith myth:

This revisionist view of Lilith is based primarily on a work called the Alphabet of Ben Sira, which portrays Lilith as Adam's first wife who was rejected because she wanted to be on top during sexual intercourse. Lilith was replaced with Eve, a more submissive second wife.

Many modern commentators describe this as part of the Talmud or midrash, or at least a traditional Jewish source, and claim that this story reflects the traditional rabbinical understanding of the roles of men and women. Feminists reject the negative characterization of Lilith's actions in this story. They claim Lilith was a hero who was demonized by male-chauvinist rabbis who did not want women to have any sexual power.

In Jewish folklore, Lilith is the name of Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. She left Adam after she refused to become subservient to Adam and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael. Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism. Her story was greatly developed, during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism

Hello, Cain,

I agree that the legend of Lilith pretty much in its present form was created by medieval Judaism, but what was their source for the ideas? It seems unlikely that medieval Jews would have been directly familiar with Sumerian mythology, but it is possible that the Hebrews picked up some of it during their captivity in Babylon, wrote it down, and the documents survived into medieval times but are now lost, or such ancient myths may still have existed in verbal tradition.

The story that Lilith rebelled because Adam insisted on being on top during sex is too silly today to take seriously. It is either literary symbolisn for male dominance or medieval Jews had a peculiar idea of the importance of sexual positions.

The versions of the story about Lilith's adventures after she left Eden vary widely. The story of her gang-banging with a rabble of demons seems undignified to say the least, and probably represents medieval ideas of the worst kind of demonic behavior they could imagine for her.

Do you know if the story of her knowing the Word of Power, the Ineffable Name of God, which enabled her to fly over the walls of Eden, the negotiations with the three angels Senoi, Sansenoi, and Semangelof, her voluntarily accepting demonization in return for freedom and immortality, etc, are part of the medieval Jewish tradition?

John

[JohnPaul]

bjs wrote:

On the other hand, you have taken a passage out of context from Mein Kampf to make a point that goes against most of what Hitler was writing about.

The comparison to Hitler is false and bordering on the offensive.

It may be offensive to you, but how is it false? I think it makes my point very well, that something good can be found in almost any writing, depending on how you "focus."

Incidentally, Hitler's speech is not from Mein Kampf. I read Mein Kampf many years ago and still have the book, but I didn't feel like making the effort to search it for appropriate quotes now, so I used the speech instead, which makes my point at least as well or better.

I agree that Hitler's anti-Semitism was not primarily based on any deep religious belief and in his speech, he was only using pious Christian rhetoric to appeal to the crowd. However, I hope you don't deny that these same beliefs have been imbedded in Christianity for centuries and are responsible for centuries of Jewish persecution and slaughter by Christians.

Sieg Heil!

John

[Confused]

Wow. So essentially, the consensus is that women weren't given any rights from day one.

This might better be phrased as, So essentially, the consensus among non-Christians who actively debate against Christianity is that women weren't given any rights from day one.

If you want a consensus of what actual Christians believe then it would be something else entirely.

Okay. Would you care to weigh in? And I wouldn't be so quick to judge whom is Christian and whom is non-Christian as you may find yourself eating such hasty assumptions.

[JohnPaul]

Wow. So essentially, the consensus is that women weren't given any rights from day one.

This might better be phrased as, So essentially, the consensus among non-Christians who actively debate against Christianity is that women weren't given any rights from day one.

If you want a consensus of what actual Christians believe then it would be something else entirely.

Hello, bjs,

I am a little disappointed that you have sunk so low as to resort to the common Christian rationalization that anyone who argues against them is simply ignorant of Christianity. In my observation, the opposite is true. Most nonbelievers are much better informed about Christianity than most Christians are.

Maybe Christians can deny that the murderous psychotic rantings of the Old Testament truly represent Christianity, but Paul is your very own baby. You should be embarassed by the misogynistic sexual resentments of this opportunistic charlatan, yet you attempt to justify them by claiming that we must "focus" on the good things that might be mixed with them. For shame!

John

[David 2.0]

Personally, when I "refocused" my attention on verse 11 and 12 it seems like the idea being portrayed could be a little more complicated than a plea to discriminate.
Thank you bjs, for bringing* that to my attention.

As I am religious/agnostic, I am also not part of a christian consensus group either, but what can I do about that?

For the record Hitler shows up in the weirdest places. (I personally never expect much from him. He is on ignore!)


Additionally one of the themes of the OP asked for "obscure" verses that might be contradictory to the major premise of the OP, discrimination.

I gave some...
Bjs gave some...

So on some level, in my eyes, the entire argument boils down to focus.(For both sides?)

Pot meet kettle....?

*edit cause engrish not so good

[JohnPaul]

Personally, when I "refocused" my attention on verse 11 and 12 it seems like the idea being portrayed could be a little more complicated than a plea to discriminate.
Thank you bjs, for bringing* that to my attention.

As I am religious/agnostic, I am also not part of a christian consensus group either, but what can I do about that?

For the record Hitler shows up in the weirdest places. (I personally never expect much from him. He is on ignore!)


Additionally one of the themes of the OP asked for "obscure" verses that might be contradictory to the major premise of the OP, discrimination.

I gave some...
Bjs gave some...

So on some level, in my eyes, the entire argument boils down to focus.(For both sides?)

Pot meet kettle....?

*edit cause engrish not so good

Hello, David 2.0,

I agree that some words in the OP do refer to "scripture," but the title of this thread is "Does Christianity discriminate against women?" No matter how you may rationalize, twist and "interpret" scripture, the obvious fact is that Christianity does and always has discriminated against women.

And, for the record, it is understandable that Christians are uncomfortable with any mention of Hitler, because Hitler used widespread and common Christian beliefs and prejudices to justify and implement his murderous anti-Semitism.

John