Atheists are 'discriminated against'?

[stubbornone]

Well, here is the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-pag ... 32279.html

"While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation."

Yep, in this 'long gray line' of hypocrisy and discrimination, our hero above lists ... not a single instance of this supposedly pervasive trend in the military. So, here are some things that our oppressed atheists have to ... painfully tolerate.

#1 - Prayers, those who are religious, and there are many different denominations BTW, will pray. Those who wish to pray collectively are allowed to do - freedom of religious expression is a protected right. Being unconscionably offended by someone else's expression of religion is ... aside from making you a total wanker ... also not about the US Constitution.

#2 - No doubt, just like our hero here, religious groups are afforded space and time to pray and organize, as does the author of this article. Somehow though, allowing others to practice their faith is intolerable to him? But his .. er, religious? views must be afforded sole consideration?

Beyond that, the military really doesn't give a hoop about your faith. It encourages you to have one, in anything, but only because it helps, scientifically proven, to deal with the rigors of combat. You want to be Pagan? More power too ya. You want to be atheist? Great, but we'd encourage you to explore secular humanism, if only to have a non-affiliative source that will help you deal with the emotional aspect of combat.

Somehow, this approach is ... intolerable to young atheists? Science and the effects of combat on human beings are to be rejected in favor of hyperbole?

Well, I for one hope the Army recoups its entire investment in this gravely discriminated dork - who is SO discriminated against that they allowed him into the school, trained him, educated him, allowed him to freely practice and organize his faith - indeed even be a student leader ... and this was intolerable disrespect because the Army didn't shut down everyone else's faith? Prevent the criticism of his precious choices?

Not only will this be an expensive life lesson, but when young atheist super hero joins the actual work force, he'll quickly discover that no employer anywhere appreciates a young crusader who pisses off all their religious clients. What then atheist hero?

The Army is there to win wars. Businesses are there to make money. This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

I for one advocate that we let him learn that lesson. The last thing our boys need in combat is some wanker talking about how much worse he has it than everyone else around him.

[stubbornone]

[quote="[url=http://tube]

Yes, I am sure Pat Tilman was killed because he was atheist [/quote]

My rationalism tells me what whatever that fire was it weren't friendly. This much is true. Either he was killed through draw dropping incompetance, or he was killed deliberatley....presumably because someone did not like him. It seems Tillman was an independent thinker who let his opinion be known, and his opinions were upsetting to quite a lot of folk for different reasons. I am open to persuasion but presently I am of the mind that Tillman was murdered (not specifically because he was atheist, though that was not helpful, but because he was educated, aired his opinons, and thought the Iraq war was illegal....and because he was independently minded.)

So, basically, you have not read any of the reports about Tilman's death have you? He was out in front of a Ranger convoy, in the middle of a battle, whenhe was spotted at long range, and fired upon ... and then stood up to wave off the fire. His battle buddy, who did not stand up, was fine.

Certainly a tragedy, but hardly the stuff of ... worry for atheists who fear being killed. After all, I joined the military as an atheist, I've been shot at in battle a time or two, and find, for the most part, that the people wearing the same uniform are honorable - but I am sure your paranoia backed by random speculation is a MUCH more rational case?

Atheism.

However, if the US miltitary is a non bias organisation in which independently minded non religious folk are in no additional danger because of the attitudes of their peers then I stand the point down.

You should have attempted to prove it in the first place, just like wonderkid should have actually proven his intellectually bereft case of ... discrimination.

...so that means he should put up and shut up. It works both ways though. If the boot was on the other foot and an atheist top brass imposed atheistic policies then the same argument applies to religious recruits. They too should expect to put up and shut up and and just accept the free education, and be made to sit through atheisitc propaganda.

THat means when you have it good, you don't manufacture yourself into a fake victim. By all means, if he had a legitimate complaint, he should have made it. All he did was whine, and, having been there, I can say appropriately, he full of crap.

Sometimes when young kids whine its not a grand conspiracy causing death in Afghanistan more than a decade ago, its just a whine from an immature kid.

Why is it automatically the former when its an atheist?

Well, I would not call it torture to be forced to listen to someone prayer. I would call it unfair, and it is an example of religion getting above itself.

Then I highly suggest North Korea.

Religion is protected free speech, your whine (which notice its not a conspiracy) is irrelevant. I, and anyone else, are allowed to express our religion and highly immature atheists who are willing to reinterpret the US Constitution to meet their emotional whims will just have to sit there and take it.

And what pray tell happens when institutions attempt to block our religious speech?

Atheism's bigoted attempts to block other people's faith are ... ridiculous.

If someone put anti Christian lyrics to Beethoven and made your kids sit through that....on a regular basis....then I guess that is ok too.

I was unaware that smearing someone else's faith was an expression of legitimate faith rather than just being a jerk? I am sure the courts would be unable to figure out that though ...

Funny, the Bible preaches context in wisdom, atheism ignores it.

Or if the militrary made space so that everyone else had to sit through a five minute moment of humansit reflection to help clears the mind of religious thoughts and dogma, that makes note of why Jesus is not Lord, that would also be equally just I guess. Nothing to complain about there either.

We have to sit through a great many mind numbing briefs. Once again, we do have moments of silence, and no one ... except atheists, seem to be bothered by them ... which are of course hypercritically draw out from a moment to ... five minutes? Poor baby atheists, having to put up with a moment.

It seems to me the whole idea that the guy has to listen to someone else's prayer is that on some level those praying will be upset to think one of of their own wants to be somehwere else just then. the greater the afront the great the need to make the prayer session compulsory. It is the level of their upset or fear of their upset that is the driving force here. If everyone was fine with an atheistic thinker on the team there would not be a problem.

It seems to me that you are engaging in the same victim mentality and looking for excuses to call yourself a victim because other people have religion. Well, its your life, enjoy the victim status.

If you want to resign from your job, return all the pay and allowances in your contract in a whiny pout because ... there are religious people at your job. Be my guest.

Only your fellow atheists will tell you that you are being brave rather than ... stupidly unemployed.

[/quote]Ah the hegemony of religion. It is our world get used to it. Kind of gives the push back meaning.[/quote]

Yep, pluralism makes your intolerance a grand and honorable thing. The selfish inability to tolerate other religious opinions is because ... atheists are all victims rather than merely intolerant?

I am sure all us religious people are fooled.

[stubbornone]

Your prayers are protected by the Constitution. Freedom of expression is also protected by the Constitution. But I am sure these are just rhetorical questions. You are implying the objection raised in that blog violate one or both of these rights. Tell me, how would me skipping church, stop you from worshiping, or affect your freedom of expression?

So please explain to me how atheist wonderboy is a victim because he had to listen to an opening prayer when a pluralistic audience of many faiths comes together and a prayer is offered ... like for honoring dead Soldiers? It's too much to sit in silence and allow others to express their protected speech?

He did skip church, for four years, and was about to graduate anyway.

In short, we are searching for excuses to be victims, when in fact, its just whining. Once we conceed the point that prayers are protected religious speech ... atheist wonderkid is simply being a jerk.

Resigning because you cannot accept that people are allowed to make different values, sure sounds stupid.

However resigning because you are forced to attend mandory drinking sessions and watch others get drunk and do very stupid things, a session that promotes one particlar bland of beer over others, where on duty officers actively remind you that drunkenness makes one better, would a rational and logical choice.

That is interesting, because there ARE mandatory drinking events. I can drink a coke rather than a beer. I can act as a designated driver. And drinking is merely legal, not exactly enshrined as a right in the US Constitution.

And no one, save atheists looking to excuse one of their own self made victims, would consider it 'intelligent' to resign and give up serving your country and your friends .... because they drink? And are allowed to make that choice? I should walk around forcing my values on others or quitting? Wonderful choice atheists.

Not only that, but when we force our values on others ... like say prohibition, what happens? What happens when people attempt to force the removal of religion? SO we should, in addition to being basically jerks about our values, ALSO just throw out history and its analysis?

And atheists keep assuring me that its evidence rather than emotion that drives them. I clearly see the opposite.

This test of yours isn't analogous to what this kid is saying.

Well, whatever excuse floats your boat. [/quote]

[Moses Yoder]

This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

Is it even possible to rationalise excessively?

Where will a little humility and being excessively rational get him?

If I was this fellah I would put in for a discharge before he gets the lesson they handed out to Pat Tillman.

[youtube][/youtube]

Yes, I am sure Pat Tilman was killed because he was atheist

What his rationalism will get him is a career, a free education, and save him 300K.

And what, pray tell, is excessively rational about taking having to listen to SOMEONE else prayers from time to time (you know pluralism, which our country is based upon - how irrational?) and making THAT into a form of torture?

I'd have more respect for the wanker if he made a case about the military inculcating a culture that tolerate ACTUAL torture and that his conscience was troubled that the culture would allow repeats of things like water boarding.

Instead? "I had to listen to a prayer!!!!!"

Well, I had to listen to Beethoven in school as well. Never really liked it, but I certainly appreciate its effect on history and culture. Somehow ... I am not a victim though?

Welcome to the world atheists, where you have to fit in ... not the world change to meet your self aggrandizing emotionalism that you call rationalism - which is clearly what dragging Pat Tilman, killed by friendly fire, is all about. THAT was clearly not emotional hyperbole.

Beethoven, eh? Well, lets go see Beethoven, maybe he has something to say.

He told me if you were religiously opposed to classical music, and were forced to listen to it by a government run organization, that would be discrimination. The actual diffeence is between just not liking something and being religiously or morally opposed to it. How would you feel if you went to West Point and they did not allow you to pray? How would you feel if they forced the wankers to have gay sex?

[stubbornone]

Well, I have to say that your first post does prove the fact Atheists are discriminated against, 100%.

And definitely by Mormons.

So, finding fault with a wanker complaining about ... having to listen to other people pray in a secular institution that protects the Constitution and, er, freedom of religion not only proves that any criticism of atheism is OBVIOUSLY bigotry ... but an opportunity to take a vaccuous, bogoted pot shot at Mormonism?

BTW - how do you know I am Mormon? Did you see the Abrahamic Harmony piece? Yep, I defend them all, including Islam.

But I am glad to see that an atheist immediately went to using someone's perceived religion as an opportunity to take a personal pot shot rather than discuss ... resigning from West Point ... because other religions being expressed is intolerable to atheists?

Well, more of the same. All criticism of think skinned atheism violates the constitution and is bigotry? And atheists seriously wonder why people take issue with their faith? Try McCarthyism, wherein all criticism of his Red Scare (as opposed to religious) scare tactics meant you were a died in the wool ... Mormon ... er, communist.

Actually, I see the attack, and the comments. The attitude being shown is highly bigoted, and calling people 'wankers' is not civil, and shows bigotry.

The entire OP has one big chip on shoulder, and poisoned the well.

That is interesting, because I see posts like this and see base hypocrisy.

Christians apparently have to put up with whiney atheists asking us stupid, highly bigoted questions like: IS THERE ANYTHING MORE EVIL THAN YOUR GOD!!!

Look at the language you are using. "Base Hypocrisy" followed by the poisoning of the well by the use of 'WHINEY ATHEISTS"


And you don't think there is a chip on your shoulder??

I think a guy whose first post is a blatant pot shot at "mormons", who has failed utterly to make a case and it attempting to twist the substance into a personal attack (ad hominem) would do very well to look in the mirror.

Wonderkid is not intelligent and honorable simply because you smear someone else goat.

Everyone is not flawed because we can tell the difference between Nitzsche and atheist wonderkid and see intellect in the former and absolute bafoonery in the later.

But if it makes you feel better to see all criticism of atheism as bigotry and a chip on someone shoulder ... and all criticism of religion as enshrined intellectualism ... well, as I said, you choice.

But when the substance of your 'intellectual' argumentation is saying, "Well, that is a chip on your shoulder," all I can do is ask you to apply your new found sensitivity to criticism to your fellow atheists and their 'criticism' of religion.

Or are you telling me that Chris Hitchens writing an entire book about religious wars and deliberately leaving off any other aspect of war was ... not a chip on the old shoulder? Poisoning the well?

Nah, its calling wonderkid resigning from West Point based on deliberate self victimization and whiny indolance that is ... unacceptable?

I have no doubt that is a Christian resigned from West Point .... because atheists are allowed to organize!!! MY GOD!!! You same atheists would be up in arms about it.

Yet the opposite is? A lack of standards and accountability. Nothing more.

And that is indeed my biggest beef with atheism ... and why I walked away from it.

[Furrowed Brow]

So, basically, you have not read any of the reports about Tilman's death have you? He was out in front of a Ranger convoy, in the middle of a battle, whenhe was spotted at long range, and fired upon ... and then stood up to wave off the fire. His battle buddy, who did not stand up, was fine.

I have read some stuff and I was particular responding to what his buddy said.

Certainly a tragedy, but hardly the stuff of ... worry for atheists who fear being killed. After all, I joined the military as an atheist, I've been shot at in battle a time or two, and find, for the most part, that the people wearing the same uniform are honorable - but I am sure your paranoia backed by random speculation is a MUCH more rational case?

I freely admit I do not know for sure, but after hearing what his buddy said it seems clear the incompetance was draw dropping if it was an accident.

]However, if the US miltitary is a non bias organisation in which independently minded non religious folk are in no additional danger because of the attitudes of their peers then I stand the point down.

You should have attempted to prove it in the first place, just like wonderkid should have actually proven his intellectually bereft case of ... discrimination.

The witness statement from his buddy clearly stated the circumstances of the killing. I thought that statement was sufficient. You've served. Maybe you have fired at the enemy. Maybe had them pinned down. If you stop firing and they stand up giving up any cover to stand and converse.....why you are still there....I'd say this is sufficent to be suspicious. But I only have my opinions as to what this means and no proof so I stand down and give you the point.

Religion is protected free speech, your whine (which notice its not a conspiracy) is irrelevant. I, and anyone else, are allowed to express our religion

But do we really have to be present. Why not chill out and and do your prayer thing without us.

...and highly immature atheists who are willing to reinterpret the US Constitution to meet their emotional whims will just have to sit there and take it.

Does it matter if they are mature or immature or emotional? Why the need to insist they sit through whatever their emotional maturity.

]If someone put anti Christian lyrics to Beethoven and made your kids sit through that....on a regular basis....then I guess that is ok too.

I was unaware that smearing someone else's faith was an expression of legitimate faith rather than just being a jerk? I am sure the courts would be unable to figure out that though ...

So believing Jesus was not resurrected and not the son of God, and that Christainity is a false religion is just being a jerk and not legitimate, and I guess you are saying you would find it offensive to be forced to listened to these beliefs being promoted in the military because they are not legitimate. If so there is a double standard. If not and you really would not care less then you are truly are being even handed.

]Or if the militrary made space so that everyone else had to sit through a five minute moment of humansit reflection to help clears the mind of religious thoughts and dogma, that makes note of why Jesus is not Lord, that would also be equally just I guess. Nothing to complain about there either.

We have to sit through a great many mind numbing briefs. Once again, we do have moments of silence, and no one ... except atheists, seem to be bothered by them ... which are of course hypercritically draw out from a moment to ... five minutes? Poor baby atheists, having to put up with a moment.

I guess the stuff you are force to sit through no matter how mind numbing is deemed relevent. Why is prayer relevent to an atheist?

="FB"]It seems to me the whole idea that the guy has to listen to someone else's prayer is that on some level those praying will be upset to think one of of their own wants to be somehwere else just then. the greater the afront the great the need to make the prayer session compulsory. It is the level of their upset or fear of their upset that is the driving force here. If everyone was fine with an atheistic thinker on the team there would not be a problem.

It seems to me that you are engaging in the same victim mentality and looking for excuses to call yourself a victim because other people have religion. Well, its your life, enjoy the victim status.

Yeah ok.

If you want to resign from your job, return all the pay and allowances in your contract in a whiny pout because ... there are religious people at your job. Be my guest.

And as yet after 30 years I've yet to see anyone say a prayer in the work place. I dunno what they do, or where they do it, its none of my business. And on the whole I refrain from making them listen to my favourite Christopher Hitchens' quotes.

]Ah the hegemony of religion. It is our world get used to it. Kind of gives the push back meaning.

Yep, pluralism makes your intolerance a grand and honorable thing. The selfish inability to tolerate other religious opinions is because ... atheists are all victims rather than merely intolerant?

Hmm. And if you were being made to sit through a bunch of whiney atheists when that has nothing to do with your role as a soldier then I accept you would have a rock jaw, no tears, and show us how to be magnanimous.

[stubbornone]

This guy? Has a lot to learn about how the world works and the costs of excessive pride and rationalization.

Is it even possible to rationalise excessively?

Where will a little humility and being excessively rational get him?

If I was this fellah I would put in for a discharge before he gets the lesson they handed out to Pat Tillman.

[youtube][/youtube]

Yes, I am sure Pat Tilman was killed because he was atheist

What his rationalism will get him is a career, a free education, and save him 300K.

And what, pray tell, is excessively rational about taking having to listen to SOMEONE else prayers from time to time (you know pluralism, which our country is based upon - how irrational?) and making THAT into a form of torture?

I'd have more respect for the wanker if he made a case about the military inculcating a culture that tolerate ACTUAL torture and that his conscience was troubled that the culture would allow repeats of things like water boarding.

Instead? "I had to listen to a prayer!!!!!"

Well, I had to listen to Beethoven in school as well. Never really liked it, but I certainly appreciate its effect on history and culture. Somehow ... I am not a victim though?

Welcome to the world atheists, where you have to fit in ... not the world change to meet your self aggrandizing emotionalism that you call rationalism - which is clearly what dragging Pat Tilman, killed by friendly fire, is all about. THAT was clearly not emotional hyperbole.

Beethoven, eh? Well, lets go see Beethoven, maybe he has something to say.

He told me if you were religiously opposed to classical music, and were forced to listen to it by a government run organization, that would be discrimination. The actual diffeence is between just not liking something and being religiously or morally opposed to it. How would you feel if you went to West Point and they did not allow you to pray? How would you feel if they forced the wankers to have gay sex?

Oddly enough, even odder than having dead guys literally talk to you apparently, as opposed to in the spirit - odd claims you atheists who reject the supernatural use ... but I digress, I WAS forced to listen to Beethoven.

Why? Because he is an important person in history, and his influence in music and culture was important. I can certainly decide that I do not like him, and thus not drive around in my car all day listening to him ... but when attending a gala ball event, a social event, a musical appreciation forum ... I am also mature enough to accept that people have different opinions and accept THEIR CHOICES to honor those they deem important. I consider it an honor to be exposed to someone else's opinions and desire to share those things that love.

Or ... I suppose I could compare it being forced to watch gay sex, because I cannot actually accept the concept of a valid context and employ what is commonly known as an argument from absurdity.

An opening prayer and being 'forced' to watch gay sex are the same thing?

And of course, I wonder what you and wonderkid think about blocking religion, given that is what the military did ... and then we walked into the Middle East and had our cultural ignorance of Islam blow right up in our face.

It's one thing to disgree with religion, its quite another to think that others people's opinion someone make YOU a victim. Because quite frankly, the only bigotry I see is coming from the super victims ... who compare everyday events to being forced ala Nazism to watch gay sex.

Only atheists with such notions of 'honor' and logic take wonderkid and his whine fest seriously. I that my friend says a LOT about the state of atheism.

[stubbornone]

So, basically, you have not read any of the reports about Tilman's death have you? He was out in front of a Ranger convoy, in the middle of a battle, whenhe was spotted at long range, and fired upon ... and then stood up to wave off the fire. His battle buddy, who did not stand up, was fine.

I have read some stuff and I was particular responding to what his buddy said.

Certainly a tragedy, but hardly the stuff of ... worry for atheists who fear being killed. After all, I joined the military as an atheist, I've been shot at in battle a time or two, and find, for the most part, that the people wearing the same uniform are honorable - but I am sure your paranoia backed by random speculation is a MUCH more rational case?

I freely admit I do not know for sure, but after hearing what his buddy said it seems clear the incompetance was draw dropping if it was an accident.

]However, if the US miltitary is a non bias organisation in which independently minded non religious folk are in no additional danger because of the attitudes of their peers then I stand the point down.

You should have attempted to prove it in the first place, just like wonderkid should have actually proven his intellectually bereft case of ... discrimination.

The witness statement from his buddy clearly stated the circumstances of the killing. I thought that statement was sufficient. You've served. Maybe you have fired at the enemy. Maybe had them pinned down. If you stop firing and they stand up giving up any cover to stand and converse.....why you are still there....I'd say this is sufficent to be suspicious. But I only have my opinions as to what this means and no proof so I stand down and give you the point.

Religion is protected free speech, your whine (which notice its not a conspiracy) is irrelevant. I, and anyone else, are allowed to express our religion

But do we really have to be present. Why not chill out and and do your prayer thing without us.

...and highly immature atheists who are willing to reinterpret the US Constitution to meet their emotional whims will just have to sit there and take it.

Does it matter if they are mature or immature or emotional? Why the need to insist they sit through whatever their emotional maturity.

]If someone put anti Christian lyrics to Beethoven and made your kids sit through that....on a regular basis....then I guess that is ok too.

I was unaware that smearing someone else's faith was an expression of legitimate faith rather than just being a jerk? I am sure the courts would be unable to figure out that though ...

So believing Jesus was not resurrected and not the son of God, and that Christainity is a false religion is just being a jerk and not legitimate, and I guess you are saying you would find it offensive to be forced to listened to these beliefs being promoted in the military because they are not legitimate. If so there is a double standard. If not and you really would not care less then you are truly are being even handed.

]Or if the militrary made space so that everyone else had to sit through a five minute moment of humansit reflection to help clears the mind of religious thoughts and dogma, that makes note of why Jesus is not Lord, that would also be equally just I guess. Nothing to complain about there either.

We have to sit through a great many mind numbing briefs. Once again, we do have moments of silence, and no one ... except atheists, seem to be bothered by them ... which are of course hypercritically draw out from a moment to ... five minutes? Poor baby atheists, having to put up with a moment.

I guess the stuff you are force to sit through no matter how mind numbing is deemed relevent. Why is prayer relevent to an atheist?

="FB"]It seems to me the whole idea that the guy has to listen to someone else's prayer is that on some level those praying will be upset to think one of of their own wants to be somehwere else just then. the greater the afront the great the need to make the prayer session compulsory. It is the level of their upset or fear of their upset that is the driving force here. If everyone was fine with an atheistic thinker on the team there would not be a problem.

It seems to me that you are engaging in the same victim mentality and looking for excuses to call yourself a victim because other people have religion. Well, its your life, enjoy the victim status.

Yeah ok.

If you want to resign from your job, return all the pay and allowances in your contract in a whiny pout because ... there are religious people at your job. Be my guest.

And as yet after 30 years I've yet to see anyone say a prayer in the work place. I dunno what they do, or where they do it, its none of my business. And on the whole I refrain from making them listen to my favourite Christopher Hitchens' quotes.

]Ah the hegemony of religion. It is our world get used to it. Kind of gives the push back meaning.

Yep, pluralism makes your intolerance a grand and honorable thing. The selfish inability to tolerate other religious opinions is because ... atheists are all victims rather than merely intolerant?

Hmm. And if you were being made to sit through a bunch of whiney atheists when that has nothing to do with your role as a soldier then I accept you would have a rock jaw, no tears, and show us how to be magnanimous.

#1 - Pat Tilman has been thoroughly investigated, so we have ANOTHER apparently logical atheist with no situational knowledge coming up with a fictitious story line that turns Tilman's death into a conspiracy theory against atheists ... that is just plain stupid, and is this is the lengths atheists have to go to defend some wanker's decision to scape goat religion for his own cowardice and avarice ... well, enough said.

#2 - People utter prayers all the time and most work places allow small and tasteful displays of religion, including personal notes. It is a good marketing tool that helps build bridges where people understand faith and values and see a trusted person upon which to do business ... but YOU have never seen that ... not in 30 years, eh?

Of course, the alternate is to put tasteful little conspiracy theories about military deaths and claim that all your customers are .. bigots. Which does wonders for the bottom line mind you ... so, there is that alternate solution.

Well, whatever floats you boat, I am sure wonderkids inability to fit into a business he has to resign from one time after another, each time racking up more debt until bankruptcy arrives ... well, great, he has his principles ... the principle that only his matters.

[Furrowed Brow]

I consider it an honor to be exposed to someone else's opinions and desire to share those things that love.

Please to meet you. I am atheist. It must be an honor for you.

An opening prayer and being 'forced' to watch gay sex are the same thing?

If it is something you do not want to be involved in then yes it is the same thing. Forcing anyone to do anything that is against their principles or inclination and is not relevent to them and for which there is no need or benefit, is a moral equivalent.

It's one thing to disgree with religion, its quite another to think that others people's opinion someone make YOU a victim.

Someone elses opinion can be victimising.

Because quite frankly, the only bigotry I see is coming from the super victims ... who compare everyday events to being forced ala Nazism to watch gay sex.

Gay sex is an everyday event I guess. But no one is forced to watch it.

Only atheists with such notions of 'honor' and logic take wonderkid and his whine fest seriously. I that my friend says a LOT about the state of atheism.

And that about sets the level at which you value and honor their opinion. This is your free expression. But given you have such a low opinion of atheists what gain in mutual understanding is there to be had by forcing atheists to listen to your prayers.

[stubbornone]

If it is something you do not want to be involved in then yes it is the same thing. Forcing anyone to do anything that is against their principles or inclination and is not relevent to them and for which there is no need or benefit, is a moral equivalent.

You atheists really live in a strange wonderland of illogic. Not wanting to get hit with a sprinkler and having something violently shoved into your rectum are the same thing?

What you are doing is called the guilt by association fallacy, and making public sex, which is not protected free speech and is in fact a crime, the equivalent of praying, which is protected free speech, is stupid.

Its simply a rather jerkish way of saying I am illogical and will disagree with anything you say based solely on your religion ... but I am not he bigot - you are!

Someone elses opinion can be victimising.

Apparently, ANY opinion is victimizing to an atheist.

Gay sex is an everyday event I guess. But no one is forced to watch it.

See above. Black holes are common in the universe, but no is forced to jump into one every day too.

Welcome to the argument from absurdity. This is the 'logic' of modern atheism.

Caught lying? No worries, its the same thing as gay sex, so don;t pass judgement.

Moral relativism - good luck with wonderkid in the real world.

And that about sets the level at which you value and honor their opinion. This is your free expression. But given you have such a low opinion of atheists what gain in mutual understanding is there to be had by forcing atheists to listen to your prayers.

Its called constitutionally protected free speech. And its interesting how you simply ignore the evidence and context of such a thing when it suits you ... another blow to the silly claim that atheism is rational in the slightest.

Hence, atheists resigning from West Point because ... West Point allows constitutionally protected speech to be expressed ... which is apparently a giant gay orgy?

Atheism.

[Furrowed Brow]

#1 - Pat Tilman has been thoroughly investigated, so we have ANOTHER apparently logical atheist with no situational knowledge coming up with a fictitious story line that turns Tilman's death into a conspiracy theory against atheists ... that is just plain stupid, and is this is the lengths atheists have to go to defend some wanker's decision to scape goat religion for his own cowardice and avarice ... well, enough said.

The point was given to you twice now. How graciously you accept that is a mattter for you.

#2 - People utter prayers all the time and most work places allow small and tasteful displays of religion, including personal notes. It is a good marketing tool that helps build bridges where people understand faith and values and see a trusted person upon which to do business ... but YOU have never seen that ... not in 30 years, eh?

Yes. Never. Well folk send xmas cards if that counts. But saying a prayer in public unless your are in church is kind of a social faux pas here in the uk. So I can truly say to you that in 30 years (or so) I have never ever seen anyone in the work place say a prayer, or even take themselves off on their own somewhere to pray. Maybe that is what they do, but they are subtle about it if they do. It is even rare these days to hear someone say "God Bless you". I seem to remember that being more common a couple of decades ago. I can't remember anyone saying "God save the Queen" other than in jest or when singing the national anthem at Rugby matches. We never say "God bless Britain" or "God bless England"....that just sounds weird.

Folk on occasion talk about religion but this is ususally critically. You just do not see and hear much in the way of worship unless you are in church, where most folk don't go, or only manage it for funerals and weddings. I have friends at work who are religious. One fellah I respect immensely is Christian. Never seen him prayer or heard a religious utterance. Couple of things he says and does give away he is working within a Chrisitian ethic.

I had another co worker drop a verse from scipture into the conversation to illustrate a point a couple of weeks ago. That was a first. Worked with him five years and had no idea he was religious. The fact he referenced the bible was so unusual it took me back a little. I did not have a problem with it and I learnt something about him. But then I was not being forced.

Had another short conversation once with another co worker who warned me against the evils of Harr Potter. Whilst it is generally known this fellah is religious, he is also generally regarded as eccentric.

I work on the railways. There is a railway chaplain. I see him about from time to time. Never seen him prayer or lead a prayer. I guess he must do that with folk he is counselling and who are open to that kind of thing, but it is all done in private.

It was only abour five years ago or so that I was invited to dinner at someone's house and they said grace. I was in my forties and that was the first time I had seen it for real as opposed to only seeing it on American TV shows.

So xmas cards, a couple of conversations, and an awareness of a very few number of my coworkers as being religious, otherwiseI generally live in a society that is suspicious of overt displays of religiosity outside of a Church, Mosque or synagogue, or maybe a few very formal ceremonies like Rememberance Sunday. That's it.

You comment that it is a good marketing tool would be laughed at here. Serioiusly no. On a social par with asking folk if they want to come to your swinging party. Never ever heard of anyone walking into a busness meeting or visiting their customer and saying a prayer. Just not done.

Come to think of it I am struggling to think of the last time I saw someone wear a cross. I am sure folk still do......I guess.

I guess I am responding not just from a position of atheism but also from living in a society with much lower levels of public religiosity.