God, Satan and Job

[Tim the Skeptic]

The book of Job starts out with the "divine beings", including Satan, getting together with God. (OK, this is bizarre considering what I understand of God/Satan relationship, but not my point here.) And then this conversation, as I interpret it, occurs:

God (to Satan): Isn't Job a great guy, he is a blameless and upright man.

Satan: Look at the way he's been blessed by you. Of course, he's a great guy.

God: OK, you can do to his life whatever you want but don't hurt him.

Satan destroys Job's wealth and kills his children. But he did so with God's permission, so, who's responsible? Is God the source of this evil that happens to Job?

[bobfisher]

This doesn't hold within the context of Job. It falls in line with the theodicy of Jobs friends whom God reprimanded.

How so? Jobs friends claimed that Job was being punished for sin. That's not what I am claiming.

Without assuming anything about the use of evil, the very beginning of Job shows that no good intentions are behind God's actions- it is a bet, an arrogant wager, and one which Job protested in the end and rightfully so. God cannot be justified in Job; to do so is to miss the point entirely.

I don't think the beginning of Job story proves that. What makes you sure that God's intentions are fully revealed there.

[bobfisher]

The book of Job starts out with the "divine beings", including Satan, getting together with God. (OK, this is bizarre considering what I understand of God/Satan relationship, but not my point here.) And then this conversation, as I interpret it, occurs:

God (to Satan): Isn't Job a great guy, he is a blameless and upright man.

Satan: Look at the way he's been blessed by you. Of course, he's a great guy.

God: OK, you can do to his life whatever you want but don't hurt him.

Satan destroys Job's wealth and kills his children. But he did so with God's permission, so, who's responsible? Is God the source of this evil that happens to Job?

Most people think Satan has independently thrown God's plan off course and now God is striving to set things straight. So what would God be doing dealing with Satan like this? I believe God's plan is perfectly on course and that Satan more like a tool used to subject mankind to evil.

I believe God is responsible as He planned the whole thing. God knew how Satan would repsond when He brought Job to Satan's attention. God knew what would follow. The difference between God & Satan here is that God's intentions are good while Satans are not.

God takes responsibility:
Deu 32:39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

In geneeral it is not right to think that since God is repsponsible, Satan is NOT repsponsible. Each is responsible for his own doings.

For example: God led Jesus to be tempted by Satan with the intent of saving mankind. God is responsible for that. In the same event, Satan tried to get Jesus to sin. Satan is responsible for that.

[bobfisher]

God uses evil with good intent. Don't make the assumption that using evil must be evil.

God does not afflict us simply because He want's us afflicted. It's because He wants us to comprehend good & evil.

Why? What for?
Epicurus comes to mind...

As I understand it: To understand good & evil. To know the affects of sin & evil. To learn to overcome evil with good. The learn mercy for others. To know suffering so we can help others who who suffer. To become like Jesus who laid down his life for others. None of this can be experienced in the absense of evil.

This passage gives one answer. It is not the only reason and no one can say that a person is enduring evil because of some sin.

Lam 3

31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,

36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

37 Who [is] he [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?

38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

[trencacloscas]

As I understand it: To understand good & evil. To know the affects of sin & evil. To learn to overcome evil with good. The learn mercy for others. To know suffering so we can help others who who suffer. To become like Jesus who laid down his life for others. None of this can be experienced in the absense of evil.

Why? Much better not to create evil and live happily ever after.

[bobfisher]

As I understand it: To understand good & evil. To know the affects of sin & evil. To learn to overcome evil with good. The learn mercy for others. To know suffering so we can help others who who suffer. To become like Jesus who laid down his life for others. None of this can be experienced in the absense of evil.

Why? Much better not to create evil and live happily ever after.

It does seem that way to us, doesn't it. But how much do we know?

[palmera]

How so? Jobs friends claimed that Job was being punished for sin. That's not what I am claiming.

Based on your previous comment that God uses evil with good intent, it seems as though you are justifying God's actions, which Job's friends did. I never said that you make their same argument but that like them you sought to justify God's actions, which I argued doesn't hold within the context of the story. What is it that you are claiming?

I don't think the beginning of Job story proves that. What makes you sure that God's intentions are fully revealed there.

Ok. Why don't you think it is proved? I did not argue that God's intentions were fully revealed, though it most certainly seems that way, but that his intentions weren't with "good intent." Making conjectures outside what the text says about God's intentions also, does not hold water in the context of the story. Where else, in regards to Job, might God's be revealed and why do you think this may be the case?[/quote]

[trencacloscas]

It does seem that way to us, doesn't it. But how much do we know?

A lot. It's our life after all. If God wanted it this way, he is perverse and malign as a thug, like Mark Twain suggested.

[bobfisher]

Based on your previous comment that God uses evil with good intent, it seems as though you are justifying God's actions, which Job's friends did. I never said that you make their same argument but that like them you sought to justify God's actions, which I argued doesn't hold within the context of the story. What is it that you are claiming?

Ok. I am justifying God's actions. But not in the same manner as Job's friends. They basically blamed & judged Job and treated is a less than merciful way. As I see it, their offense was not justifying God's actions. It was blaming Job's sin for bringing all this upon himself. So I'm not committing the same offense as them.

Ok. Why don't you think it is proved?

Because no reason was really given. God's conversation with Satan is not necessarily God's thinking on the matter.

I did not argue that God's intentions were fully revealed, though it most certainly seems that way, but that his intentions weren't with "good intent." Making conjectures outside what the text says about God's intentions also, does not hold water in the context of the story. Where else, in regards to Job, might God's be revealed and why do you think this may be the case?

My context is the whole bible. It reveals the character of God. God is love. Hurting Job on a whim is not love. There are many examples of God using evil, suffering & hardship for loving purposes in the bible. Why would this not be another instance? Lam 3 says God does not afflict man willingly. So there is always a reason.

Basically, I am agreeing with the statement Job makes below -- that God was trying Him like as a refiner who purifies gold in a hot fire...

Job 23:8 I go east, but he is not there. I go west, but I cannot find him.
9 I do not see him in the north, for he is hidden. I turn to the south, but I cannot find him. 10 But he knows where I am going. And when he has tested me like gold in a fire, he will pronounce me innocent.

...and God concluded that Job's assessment of God was closer to the truth than Job's friends.

Job 42:7 After the Lord had finished speaking to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "I am angry with you and with your two friends, for you have not been right in what you said about me, as my servant Job was.

[bobfisher]

It does seem that way to us, doesn't it. But how much do we know?

A lot. It's our life after all. If God wanted it this way, he is perverse and malign as a thug, like Mark Twain suggested.

Well if God didn't want it this way and yet it is this way, then God is not omnicient & omnipotent. I understand why you think this way given the evil & suffering in this world. I believe there will be a day when you won't see it this way.

[Tim the Skeptic]

I've always noticed that whenever someone tries the arguement about requiring evil in order to understand good, it is always from the viewpoint of the survivor. Do you think the last thought on Job's childrens' minds was "Well, my life is getting snuffed out, but I am sure it is serving a greater good. Praise God."

Or were they terrified?