Why man?

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:09 pm

The question is simple. Why did an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient being create man? Boredom?

Shild · Post by **Shild** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:57 pm

And I certainly can't think of any examples where God shared knowledge or even love with mankind.

Well, aside from giving humans life and the capability to survive and progress, aside from a mind which can understand, lips which can speak, ears which can hear, eyes which can see, hands which can manipulate, feet which can walk, aside from the ability to be happy, to have joy, to love each other, to make love...

Aside form all that, God gives humans forgiveness for their shortcomings, mistakes, flaws, sins, and llimitations. All humans need do is recognize their imperfection in light of God's perfection and ask forgiveness, and we get it.

Humans almost never thank God for these things, and He forgives us anyway. Now that's what I call love.

This all applies if one is subscribing to the doctrine as preached by Jesus and the apostles. In that case, the sacrifice of Jesus is a good example of love, and His teachings (summaraized above) are a good example of God sharing knowledge with humanity.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:46 pm

Well, aside from giving humans life and the capability to survive and progress, aside from a mind which can understand, lips which can speak, ears which can hear, eyes which can see, hands which can manipulate, feet which can walk, aside from the ability to be happy, to have joy, to love each other, to make love...

..most of which are given to animals. Are you sure the gift of life is really the greatest gift one can give? Genetically engineering a human, and cloning, should be recognised as an act of compassion, glorifying God. Yet they aren't.

Aside form all that, God gives humans forgiveness for their shortcomings, mistakes, flaws, sins, and llimitations. All humans need do is recognize their imperfection in light of God's perfection and ask forgiveness, and we get it.

He's responsible for those flaws. If a design has fault, and is creatd by an intelligent and perefect god, by all rights, he should grant us forgiveness.

Humans almost never thank God for these things, and He forgives us anyway. Now that's what I call love.

I wasn't aware you had to thank someone for a gift you never asked for.

As for knowledge - Jesus' sacrifice wouldn't be necessary if we hadn't sought out knowledge ourselves by eating from the tree.

Shild · Post by **Shild** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:39 pm

..most of which are given to animals.

So what? These things are still invaluable gifts.

Are you sure the gift of life is really the greatest gift one can give?

No, actually. However, I am sure we can all agree that all the good things in our lives, those which we take for granted (like the ability to express oneself intelligently on a debate forum

) and those we really appreciate would not be there if it were not for God's decision to give them to us.

He's responsible for those flaws. If a design has fault, and is creatd by an intelligent and perefect god, by all rights, he should grant us forgiveness.

And He does grant us forgiveness. All we need to do is admit sincerely that we need it and then ask for it.

I wasn't aware you had to thank someone for a gift you never asked for.

You do not have to thank God. That is the point. If you do not want God's forgiveness, no one is making you get it. If you do not want to recognize the fact that you owe your life (and everything that makes it worth living) to God, no one is forcing you.

Besides which, this point is basically illogical. Humans did not ask for all this because, before we had it, we did not exist, and nonexistence cannot ask for things.

As for knowledge - Jesus' sacrifice wouldn't be necessary if we hadn't sought out knowledge ourselves by eating from the tree.

My point still stands. Jesus' preaching was an example of divine knowledge passed on to humanity.

BTW, His sacrifice is a good example of divine love for humanity in itself.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:30 am

Shild wrote:
..most of which are given to animals.
So what? These things are still invaluable gifts.

Invaluable to you, simple because you exist.

Are you sure the gift of life is really the greatest gift one can give?
No, actually. However, I am sure we can all agree that all the good things in our lives, those which we take for granted (like the ability to express oneself intelligently on a debate forum ) and those we really appreciate would not be there if it were not for God's decision to give them to us.

If we believe in God, yes. Whether they're a gift or a curse is open to debate.

He's responsible for those flaws. If a design has fault, and is creatd by an intelligent and perefect god, by all rights, he should grant us forgiveness.
And He does grant us forgiveness. All we need to do is admit sincerely that we need it and then ask for it.

Charming. But as I pointed out, if he was at all honest, that's what he should do. Why should I praise him for it?

I wasn't aware you had to thank someone for a gift you never asked for.
You do not have to thank God. That is the point. If you do not want God's forgiveness, no one is making you get it. If you do not want to recognize the fact that you owe your life (and everything that makes it worth living) to God, no one is forcing you.

Besides which, this point is basically illogical. Humans did not ask for all this because, before we had it, we did not exist, and nonexistence cannot ask for things.

True enough. Now you're asking an existentialist question, which is, basically, does life matter? That still doesn't explain the purpose of man.

Earlier you used the argument that, becuase of the limited understanding of man, we can't be certain of God's plans for us. Because of the limited understanding of man, why are you sure God exists?

RavEMasteR · Post by **RavEMasteR** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:20 am

And He does grant us forgiveness. All we need to do is admit sincerely that we need it and then ask for it.

You completely failed to see the point. If I, for example, killed my neighbour's dog by rolling it over with a car, what do I do? Smite the neighbour and tell'em to go to hell? Of course you either get him a new one and apologize as much as possible, or offer all the help you can give.

God made us imperfect little beings. It's as good as slaughtering all of us himself. God is thus OBLIGED to grant us what he granted us. He didn't do it out of love, he did it out of embarrassment for his so-called masterpiece.

Shild · Post by **Shild** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:46 pm

Earlier you used the argument that, becuase of the limited understanding of man, we can't be certain of God's plans for us. Because of the limited understanding of man, why are you sure God exists?

Please do not change the subject. You began this thread with the basic assumptions that God exists, and is "omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient." Whether God exists is a subject for another thread, and that question does not hurt my point, since limited understanding does not equate to complete lack of understanding.

Edited to add: A toddler can understand the existence of a president, even without understanding the motivations behind that official's actions.

Need to go to a briefing now. To be continued...

Shild · Post by **Shild** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:44 pm

He's responsible for those flaws.

God made us imperfect little beings.

Why believe humans all have some built in flaw? If we are using the Biblical account, God did not make flawed humans; He made humans with the ability to make wrong choices.

The alternative to allowing sin is to prevent people from making their own choices by either 1) hard wiring the human brain or 2) making the truth of the Bible so obvious that no one can deny it, any more than they can deny the existence of the sun.

Either case would remove the ability to make one's own choices from human life.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:56 pm

Shild wrote:
He's responsible for those flaws.

God made us imperfect little beings.
Why believe humans all have some built in flaw? If we are using the Biblical account, God did not make flawed humans; He made humans with the ability to make wrong choices.

I was quoting from you:

Aside form all that, God gives humans forgiveness for their shortcomings, mistakes, flaws, sins, and llimitations. All humans need do is recognize their imperfection in light of God's perfection and ask forgiveness, and we get it.

However, my statement still stands. He is responsible for allowing us to choose. It seems sadistic to punish someone for exercising a right God granted them.

Shild · Post by **Shild** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:33 pm

My statement did not imply that human sins are inborn.

He is responsible for allowing us to choose. It seems sadistic to punish someone for exercising a right God granted them.

Freedom does go hand in hand with responsibility.

The US government allows legal adults to drink as much alcohol as they want. However, it trusts them to be responsible with this right.

Suppose there were a court case concerning a man who broke a law while inebriated. He could (rightly) say in his defense that he could not reason at the time because of his drunken state. The obvious response is that it was still his choice to drink too much (or at all).

Then suppose the man claims he should be acquitted because the government allowed him to choose to drink too much. Clearly, this argument does not hold water. No pun intended.

Freedom to make a choice does not mean the absolution of the obligation to make the right choice.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:42 pm

Except the U.S government never created citizens with the ability to choose between right and wrong, then expect them to always do what's right, as God did.