Magic and god

[connermt]

Blaine.
Angel.
Cooperfield.
Magicians. They do 'tricks' that stun and amaze many people.
God/jesus did the same type of things.
So are they nothing more than magicians?
Let's compare:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = human
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = doing actions that surprise and impress certain (though not all) viewers
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = men
Let's contrast:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = alive jesus = dead
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = verifiable in the real world jesus = unverifiable

It sure seems god can be called nothing more than a magician. Is that true, or is it something else?
How do we know this?
-

[sizzle-d]

[Replying to post 16 by Danmark]

I wonder what makes you think you know anything about SCOAN. The way you are acting shows me that if evidence is in front of you, you'ld rather walk the opposite way and tell others to do so.
If it was that you wanted to know, it'll be alright but no. You don't know, you don't want to know and you don't want others to know. Are you afraid to admit you are wrong or something? Nobody is going to kill you.
There is SCOAN and there is the rest of you. Because you've never gone there, you tell stories. When people ask you, you tell more. You are not even willing to think of going!
It's as if they locked your minds so that when evidence is presented, there is always a story. Last time i checked, a science inclined person should have an open mind but you and your atheist scientists are all disappointing.

Jeez, thank God i have nothing similar to your lives.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 16 by Danmark]

I wonder what makes you think you know anything about SCOAN.

Did you miss the part where I quoted from his own website:
http://www.scoan.org/give/
That's where he asks for money and talks about faith healing.

[Haven]

[Replying to post 16 by Danmark]

I wonder what makes you think you know anything about SCOAN. The way you are acting shows me that if evidence is in front of you, you'ld rather walk the opposite way and tell others to do so.
If it was that you wanted to know, it'll be alright but no. You don't know, you don't want to know and you don't want others to know. Are you afraid to admit you are wrong or something? Nobody is going to kill you.
There is SCOAN and there is the rest of you.

(emphasis mine)

SCOAN sounds like a cult and this T.B. Joshua sounds like a David Koresh type. I have no interest in joining a cult, unsubstantiated miracle claims or not.

Because you've never gone there, you tell stories. When people ask you, you tell more. You are not even willing to think of going!

I live in South Dakota. That's over 5,000 miles from Lagos, Nigeria. If I'm going to travel 5,000 miles, it won't be to visit some circus of a megachurch.

It's as if they locked your minds so that when evidence is presented, there is always a story. Last time i checked, a science inclined person should have an open mind but you and your atheist scientists are all disappointing.

I do have an open mind. Present actual evidence and we'll talk, but appeals to authority, personal experience, faith, unsubstantiated claims, and YouTube videos don't constitute evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and supernatural faith healing is a very extraordinary claim.

[Jashwell]

miracle
noun
1.
an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

supernatural
adjective
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

magic
noun
1.
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

adjective
1.
having or apparently having supernatural powers.
"a magic wand"


A miracle is not natural and not explicable scientifically, by definition.
This makes it supernatural, by definition.
Everything supernatural is, by definition, magic.
Therefore miracles are magic.
If God can perform miracles, God is magic.

[sizzle-d]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and supernatural faith healing is a very extraordinary claim.

You don't want to go see the evidence but you want to see the evidence? You're weird.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 12 by dianaiad]

..Blaine/Angel/Copperfield, call themselves illusionists, not magicians...

Yes. Term was used as a general one.

f God does something and we can't duplicate it, does that mean we never will be able to duplicate it?

"If god" is a whole other topic, so I'll remove it and respond as such:
'If something happens and we can't duplicate it, does that mean we never will be able to duplicate it?'
No

[FarWanderer]

Blaine.
Angel.
Cooperfield.
Magicians. They do 'tricks' that stun and amaze many people.
God/jesus did the same type of things.
So are they nothing more than magicians?
Let's compare:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = human
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = doing actions that surprise and impress certain (though not all) viewers
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield/jesus = men
Let's contrast:
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = alive jesus = dead
Blaine/Angel/Cooperfield = verifiable in the real world jesus = unverifiable

It sure seems god can be called nothing more than a magician. Is that true, or is it something else?
How do we know this?
-

Two thoughts struck me when I read the above post.
The first one was Arthur C Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

The second was that the folks you reference, Blaine/Angel/Copperfield, call themselves illusionists, not magicians; they are very clear that what they do is 'fake,' and for entertainment, while the events attributed to Jesus were done, not to entertain or to 'fool' people or to get money from them. They were all done to teach a lesson, or simply because the miracle needed doing and He was there and able to do it; rather like a doctor saving the life of a traffic accident victim who would have died had the doctor not been there and known what to do.

Now me, I rather concur with Clarke: a miracle is an event that couldn't be accomplished by the folks present at the time it happens. The question, as far as I can tell, is this: when we can figure out how to do it, is the original event still a miracle?

Another question: if God does something and we can't duplicate it, does that mean we never will be able to duplicate it? Or...if God does something that we can't immediately duplicate, does that mean He couldn't have done it in the first place?

It's interesting because of how hard it is to deny human potential. What phenomenon are categorically impossible for humans to someday manifest? I draw a blank. To me it says that God's omnipotent power and human potential are equivalent. Makes you wonder what exactly the relationship between humans and God is, doesn't it?

[RonE]

[Replying to post 12 by dianaiad]

Another question: if God does something and we can't duplicate it, does that mean we never will be able to duplicate it? Or...if God does something that we can't immediately duplicate, does that mean He couldn't have done it in the first place?

If you cannot prove god exists how can you creditably assign any action to god? I would propose that god is the illusion not the illusionist.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 28 by RonE]

Which would make the believers the ultimate illusionist if they are indeed the ones perpetuating the god illusion, yes?
I would agree. I see nothing that shows any definitive sign of god. Thus, it appears god is an illusion created by those who wish to see it.

[Danmark]

You're weird.

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